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10/28/2010, 10:53 AM | #1 |
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algea scrubber
ok so a week ago i made an algea srubber. Its been hooked up and has been 4 a week now cleand the screen yesterday and all i seem to get is brown or dark algea so. my overflow is 300g my return pump from my sump is 250 my screen is 8inchs long like ten tall. im scared to turn off my skimmer thow cuz im not sure this thing is working proporly
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10/28/2010, 11:12 AM | #2 |
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Its too soon for you to turn off your skimmer right now. Its not working yet becuase it hasn't had time to seed itself with the right type of algae. Once you get dark thick algae growing on it, i would say its safe to turn the skimmer off.
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10/28/2010, 11:28 AM | #3 |
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Don't turn off your skimmer, the algae scrubber is NOT a replacement for a protein skimmer. The scrubber reduces nitrates and phosphates that are the end results of biological processes. The skimmer removes the dissolved organics, before they are broken down into nitrates. Skimmerless systems do poorly compared to systems with skimmers, and over the years the volume of information that supports this is ridiculously large. Even with the scrubber, and no skimmer, the build up of organics in the water will overburden the system, and must be dealt with. The only way is with very frequent water changes. The build up leads to such things as cyano outbreaks. Systems can be successful without a skimmer, but it takes a bit more than an algae scrubber.
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"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef |
10/28/2010, 01:53 PM | #4 |
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Have you properly roughed up the screen?
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10/28/2010, 06:05 PM | #5 |
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want to go skimmer less grow lots and lost of mangrove... or so I have read
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10/28/2010, 06:41 PM | #6 | |
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T
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No....really honey, it was a gift! Current Tank Info: 700 gallon combined reef/frag systems - 650gal Cichlid system |
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10/28/2010, 07:18 PM | #7 |
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Assuming you've roughed up the screen like it's going out of style, it looks like it could end up being pretty effective. But from what I've read, you really have got to have the scrubber running at full capacity before you take the skimmer offline.
Regretfully this forum seems to be low on folks that are able to offer solid, experience-based help with the scrubbers. But the scrubbers certainly have been known to have efficacy. The system I'm planning so far is going to use algae scrubber as the primary filtration. If you want comprehensive information and pictures, success stories etc, google 'santa monica scrubber' and hit the first link |
10/28/2010, 07:52 PM | #8 | |
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Many things will work for relatively short periods. But, the yellow water, and the release of phenols, skatols and creosols, which are known irritants to most SPS, and many LPS corals....well it just does not make sense for many of us that cannot devote the time required for maintenace of rotating, scraping, washing down screens. And - it is - again long term - inevitable that there will be turf algae species in the display tank to deal with. Grazing animals you say???, sure - that is a "failure of prevention" form of husbandry....just not the best scenario. Would it not be more prudent to look down the road a bit further, and recognize that there are reasons the algae scrubber technology has been around for 30 odd years - and is *not* the approach of choice, for millions of hobbyist - perhaps for some very sound reasons??? Hey - whatever works for you....But there are plenty of us here, on this board that are VERY familiar with Dr. Adey's original designs, and may just have even worked on the ones empolyed at the Smithsonian And, that - by most folks definition would be "experience"...... Best of Luck! T
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No....really honey, it was a gift! Current Tank Info: 700 gallon combined reef/frag systems - 650gal Cichlid system Last edited by teesquare; 10/28/2010 at 08:11 PM. |
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10/28/2010, 08:20 PM | #9 | ||||||
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You seem to have some very strong feelings there teesquare. Care to be productive/convincing with that energy?
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Although you're absolutely right that by far protein skimmers dominate the hobby in this regard. I would imagine that this is because they are in fact much easier to use, and are basically guaranteed to work from the get-go. Quote:
You say you worked on the turf scrubbers at the Smithsonian? I'd love to hear more about it. By all means though, please keep it factual and leave the sensational hyperbole out |
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10/28/2010, 08:51 PM | #10 | |
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What's to tell? My life history? I am afraid it would bore you, and frankly...you use of English just scares me Or you could just do your research on me! T
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No....really honey, it was a gift! Current Tank Info: 700 gallon combined reef/frag systems - 650gal Cichlid system Last edited by teesquare; 10/28/2010 at 09:06 PM. |
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10/28/2010, 10:12 PM | #11 |
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I ditched my algae turf scrubber and things have improved. They collect detritus at the bottom of the screen and even weekly cleaning is not enough. I've found the water below the screen needs to be deep enough to run a power head for the detritus to remain in suspension and reach the filter sock or skimmer.
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10/28/2010, 10:23 PM | #12 |
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does the scrubber/skimmer debate necessarily have to be an either/or scenario?
I mean... couldn't you run both? Once upon a time I had a small system running with an undersized algae tray filter and an undersized skimmer. the tray filter ran for about 14hrs/day while the display lights were out. The skimmer was shut down for about two hours in the morning and evening when I was most likely to be feeding. I felt that the water quality was quite good- compared to other common reef tanks of the time (early 90s). The ease of maintenance was fantastic-- I had 4 parallel algae plates and would just remove one each week, and swap in a fresh one. Then I could scrape/clean the "full" one at my leisure. the skimmer would skim a little more sometimes, the algae would grow a little faster sometimes. Probably related to my feeding behavior or water changes. |
10/28/2010, 10:38 PM | #13 | |||||||
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But with the methodology that I'm aware of - removing the plate, scrubbing and rinsing outside of the tank, on a religiously weekly basis - I don't see how the algae could ever build up and ripen/die/lyse at a rate that would cause discoloration of the water. Similarly, in the past I have had aquariums with terrible long-term nutrient problems, and for months at a time the rock work and glass would be covered in varieties of algae, and I never experienced this yellow water. Quote:
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Rest assured, this seems silly to me as well. Quote:
With that out of the way, I believe I have an explanation for why the turf scrubbers are not more popular in spite of the fact that they are efficacious: Protein skimmers work, and much more reliably. While a person can purchase a protein skimmer immediately, that will have his or her water sparkling immediately and permanently, how can you go wrong? With so many unknowns already in a reef tank, with water chemistry, nuisance species etc, why not clutch on to a device that works so effectively and consistently? Meanwhile, scrubbers seem to be a lot more temperamental, and can be doomed from the beginning if they are not set up correctly. They add another big monkey wrench to the equation. Naturally, if I were a coral farmer or ran a public aquarium, I would definitely not want to take my chances when another device is proven to work so much better and more consistently. Meanwhile, if I have gotten the correct information on the history of algae scrubbers, they did get a rough start, and for many a rough reputation in the reefkeeping community with the methodology that was employed in the past. Quote:
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Last edited by widmer; 10/28/2010 at 10:44 PM. |
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10/28/2010, 10:48 PM | #14 | |
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10/28/2010, 10:49 PM | #15 | |
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10/28/2010, 10:58 PM | #16 |
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Yes, you could run both and I suspect best water quality for effort/running expenses/cost would probably use both. Suspect you could use units that are sized...(?)60%(?) of what you'd need if either were used exclusively.
There is no doubt that a TS is going to export nitrates faster than a skimmer ever could. Likewise a skimmer will probably skim out undesirable proteins and other gunk that turf would pretty much ignore. For large tanks a TS starts becoming a problem energy wise. You could probably run a skimmer with less electricity than the wall-o-light needed to power a TS. If you live somewhere tropical like Florida and you can run a TS with solar power outside then the energy issue would swap to a TS being less costly to run energy wise. I'll be trying both on my build. jimmyrow: I forgot to ask if you are running your lights 18 ON 4 OFF? |
10/28/2010, 11:38 PM | #17 | |
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http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquariu...ref=pd_sim_b_4 http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer....ner_to_Breeder http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.co...fm?pcatid=4703 Unfortunately, the internet is not the only place to find information, and sometimes is *not* the place. Within books you will find a wealth of information that is not available on the internet, and in some cases contradicts what is "common knowledge" or "common practice" put forth on the internet. As T pointed out, it is not the job to convince-- as this becomes cumbersome. Rather to advise (whether is is direct to the point or very detailed) based on experience, and knowledge obtained from books, or other sources. If those attending wish to research the information, it is usually available at the library if it is not online.
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"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef Last edited by uncleof6; 10/28/2010 at 11:55 PM. |
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10/29/2010, 05:14 AM | #18 |
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wow!!! um im gunna run um both till probly i take the tank down y not it cant hurt. i have the lights on the ts 18on 6 off. i mad mine a little weird so the dran hole is 2inchs off bootum off buckit might need to redesing or put a powerhead in there. as 4 the debate sorry to start all that i see benifits in the ts so i included one. i did rough up the screen a lot. after firstweek it was just brown now were on day 3 of 2week and theres as much as there was at the end of last week.
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10/29/2010, 11:42 AM | #19 | |
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This is because, the more time I spend on these boards, the more skeptical I become of statements that are presented as fact, which are quite simply not true. Example: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=41 2. But you're absolutely right about the value to be found in physical texts. My last pharmacology professor recently told us that hes been teaching for decades, and has yet to find a better explanation of a particular mechanism than was originally printed in one of his books. Maybe it's finally time for me to pick up a copy of The Reef Aquarium by Delbeek and Sprung |
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10/29/2010, 01:03 PM | #20 |
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I've been running an ATS for about 18 months with no other form of filtration (not even a filter sock). It most definitely works. Conversion from a 5 year old FOWL with consistantly high nitrates (50+PPM) and off the chart P04. Now everything is rock solid at 0.
I've never tried a skimmer, but would like to give a good skimmer a try to see if I can get increased growth out of my SPS. |
10/29/2010, 02:43 PM | #21 | |
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"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef |
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10/29/2010, 04:34 PM | #22 | |
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10/29/2010, 04:55 PM | #23 |
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id let the skimmer run for about a month then shut it down.. i had one that worked great after about 2 months... youll love how clear the water is
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10/29/2010, 07:45 PM | #24 |
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FWIW I'm working on turf scrubbers for both of my systems. I think they have a ton of potential, just wish I'd thought to add them earlier!
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10/30/2010, 07:37 AM | #25 | ||
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My tank came about before the internet and all the cookie cutter reef tanks that many, but not all hobbiests have. I only used about 10 gallons of real water in my tank this year, I was just too busy to collect water and I only collected some mud for the bacteria twice. I don't know if that qualifies as using NSW. As for why you don't see reverse ug filters, that is an easy one. When this hobby started in 1971 we all had fresh water tanks, well the people who were born anyway. I also had a fresh water tank for 20 years already but I recently converted it to brackish. The UG filter lauded by Robert Straughn (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping) was the only device around. It was that or nothing. The problem was not with the UG filter but with the way we used it. Even Straughn did not understand about the bacteria aspect of the filter but he, like all of us used it as a particulate filter. Using it like this is a disaster and it will crash in 6 or 7 months forcing us to remove everything to clean it and the gravel in buckets of fresh water with a hose. We didn't want bacteria in our gravel and the dead coral branches were easy to remove to clean. Years later when most of those authors you mentioned got into the hobby (Moe was the only one then, he started when I did) Tanks started to get more elaborate and we gradually learned about the advantages of bacteria. It was no longer easy to remove everything from the tank to clean the gravel so we (or most people) went to other more user friendly systems like bio balls and SSBs. Algae was rampant but that is for another thread. Anyway, the UG filter was not bad but we used it completely incorrectly. It is extreamly efficient because it encompases the entire bottom of the tank as opposed to say a DSB which only exposes the top layer of sand to the water. (Yes I know about the worms that dig in the sand and allow some slight water movement) I figured that if I could have the benefits of the UG filter without the clogging problem, I could make it work. I added a sponge filter on the inlet and ran it very slow and backwards. I experimented for a number of years to get it so that there is practically no maintenance. Just a few minutes a couple of times a year and after 25 years I did a thorough cleaning. I am not sure if that is too much maintenance for some people. But anyway, the "Experts" in this hobby were all writing about "New" methods of running a tank. I happen to be a friend of Bob Goemans, he was pushing live sand and still does. When he saw my tank 20 years ago he was amazed that it was running so long with almost no maintenance using an UG filter. No one wanted to go "backwards" to mention a UG filter for fear of ruining their reputation. Also a UG filter is very cheap and it lasts forever. Marketing such a thing would be suicide for a manufacturer. Bio balls were expensive and required a large container with a complicated (and expensive) spray bar. As for the algae trough, I have had one on and off for 50 years or so in salt and fresh tanks. My design collects no detritus at all and again only takes a couple of minutes every few months to maintain. It cost about $2.00 to make. I would like to tell a story about "Old Technology" Old technology does not mean useless technology. (The pyramids are still standing the last time I looked) I was the general foreman electrician in the Plaza Hotel. We were doing a major overhaul of the building. It was built in 1907, just before electricity was widely used in NY. The ejector pumps in the basement that pumped out the sewage were installed in 1907 and were powered by steam, no electricity. They worked flawlessly for almost 100 years. Then they needed some parts. The parts were no longer made so we installed three state of the art 3 Phase electric pumps controlled by an elaborate computer system. In the three years I worked there, we changed that system twice. Quote:
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I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead. Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971 Last edited by Paul B; 10/30/2010 at 08:11 AM. |
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