no growth and pastel color

[daveonbass]

to start with a I have 6x39 ATI PM. currently I have 5 Blue+ and one AquaBlue special. I usually have 5B+ and one Purple+ but I have to get the money for 1 B+ and 1 P+ (new bulbs). But the current bulbs are really lightening up my corals...plus I have very little growth. I have a Red Planet that has not grown at ALL in about a year.

So, the lights were 14 inches off the surface of the water. But I JUST lowered them to 12 inches. The reason why is that I have a frag rack that seems to be getting better color. BUT...the parts of the corals that are shaded from the top parts of the corals...ie, lower monti plates that are shaded by the upper plates or lower arco growth shaded by the upper spines...all seem to have deeper richer colors. So on one hand the shaded (lower light) parts of the mother colonies are richer in color, and the frags that are higher and more explosed to light are richer in color. So I don't know what the problems are.

I have a 58g tank, 60g+ total. I dose 2 part, 4oz a day of calcuim and alk each. The lights are on for about 10 hours if I recall correctly. and I have 2 MP10's, one on each side of the tank on reefcrest mode. I typically feed once a day, flake or mysis. 3 fish, two banggai and one Kole tang. My skimmer, DAS EX1 pulls a fully skimmer cup of dark nog about once a week, and I run BioPellets.

ph 7.83
no3 0-5
po4 0 (undetectable)
salinity 1.025
Ca 440ish
Alk 10ish
mag (I rarely test this one but it's always around normal sea water)


Any Ideas on why my growth and color are so stunted right now. I used to have a rich deep color...but the bulbs were older and I had more fish too (poop?). I have always noticed that when I have too MUCH light the colors get washed out...and too little they get brown. But right now it's like the best colors are in opposite zones. plus the growth is just not there.

any ideas or help will be great. I don't know if I should rase the lighte more, lower the lighting period, lower the lights closer, dose more/less, add more fish (small system), add other supliments, or what?

help please, I miss my pretty growing reef.

[sahin]

Do you have access to a PAR meter? I would measure the PAR to be determine whether it is too much light or not.

You could try dosing KZ Coral Vitaliser or the Amino Acids. If the tank is very low in nutrients then otherwise moderate light levels can cause corals to become pale - ie there isnt enough nutrients to support a greater concentration of zooanthellae, and so since there is adequate lighting, it makes sense for the coral to shed some of the Zoo's, hence the coral appears pale.

The ATI PM is a very strong light indeed, but at 14 inches high with 6 tubes I think that the PAR levels couldnt be over saturating the corals. I have a PAR meter and have played around with lights fixtures and measured PAR levels etc and have some guesstimate idea.

If you do start to dose the KZ CV or Amino acids, take it slow, change nothing else, and see what happens over a month.

[sahin]

Just noticed that you dont test mg, I would test this to make sure it is within normal levels before doing anything else.

[aqua80]

do you have some pics ?
noticed any red bugs or other pests ?
what are the dimensions of your tank ?

[daveonbass]

I do test MG, and like I said it's always within the range of natural seawater. That's why I said I don't test it often. I haven't done anything to warrant thinking that it's magically dissapeared on me. I dose it regularly along with my 2 part and again...when I do test, it's always good.

Keep in mind that I have NO LFS...big bummer, so it's not like I can just go out and Buy some new supliments. I have to order them or wait till I can make it to a bigger city like dallas. I'll see what I can get the next time I go.

I am worried that it IS just the lights being too intense. When I first bought lights and set up the tank...I bleached and killed ever lps that I put onthe sand bed...and that was with the lights at 14-16 inches up. I learned to slowly acclimate the corals from under the cave I have built...to the shaded sand...to just the sand...and then if I can, I move them up to a rock. But only my SPS ever really make the upward move. The ATI blows my mind as to how intense it is.

The tank is 36x18x21. My friend here has the exact same size tank...and it's lit by just one 400w 20K MH. he has his light about 12" off the water (or more?) and he doesn't have half the problems of bleaching that I do with the ATI. I guess I just did so well for a while because the bulbs had gotten old...

I'll see if I can get some recent pics.

[daveonbass]

sorry, also there are no pests...no red bugs, or anything that is ever on the coral. And again I am down from 13 fish to 3. I think the lack of poop is having a negative effect.

[aqua80]

6x39w PM for a 36x18x21 is certainly a lot of light ! and with low nutrients (do you still run your biopellets ?) that can certainly get your corals to look pale...
you run all 6 bulbs on for 10hours ?

I have a 8x24w PM on my 30x30x24 cube and still acclimating after 6 weeks...
LPS bleached on the bottom, sps ok but I'm only running all 8 bulbs on for 3 hours... 6 bulbs for 3h30 and 2 bulbs for 2h30 fo a total of 9 hours...
fixture about 8-9 inch over the water...
bulb combo is 2 fijipurple, 5 B+, 1 ge6500k

here is the PAR I get with fixture 5" over the water :



so maybe :

- throw in some actinics bulbs to lower PAR
- decrease your photoperiod
- increase nutrients import (fish, AA)

and take some macro shots of your worse coral to carefully look for pest (that is always like that I found RB, on a photography)

[daveonbass]

Yeah, I wish I had only bought a 24 inch fixture. I didn't know how strong this was gonna be. The weird part is that for a time things were great. Blouses it doesn't explain why the frags look great with deep colors.

[pusanpa]

Looks like too much light for too long. Check my thread All my corals are doing much better with 6.5hrs (all 6 bulbs) photo period.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2099253

[Reef Bass]

Do you feed your corals? Mine got more and more pale until I started feeding them. Then within a week they started coloring up and a month later were so much more colorful and growth took off again

[daveonbass]

What did you feed...again, remember I have no LFS, so its hard to just go by stuff. Also to answer an earlier question...no, I do not have access to s par meter. I wish...

[Reef Bass]

Considering your lack of a lfs, I suggest freeze dried zooplankton, such as Reef Chili or Coral Frenzy which are easily ordered onine and shipped anywhere. I also like the Reef Nutrition products such as Roti-Feast and Oyster Feast, but they need to be kept refrigerated and as such are best purchased at a lfs.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

What did you feed...again, remember I have no LFS, so its hard to just go by stuff. Also to answer an earlier question...no, I do not have access to s par meter. I wish...

Did your corals start to lose colour after your fish load went down to 3 from 13? If so, there is probably your answer. Or did other changes take place around this time as well?

Like I said earlier, your ATI unit is powerful, but since you had it at 14inches above the water, I honestly dont think it an overload of light. Although it is related indirectly, ie when nutrients are VERY low what is usually moderate light levels can cause paleness; but the main issue is the very low nutrient level - too low.

One thing though; what do you use to test your phosphate level?

You can go two ways with this:

1. Since all ATI units have at 2 tubes on one plug. Dont run that plug for 3 weeks. So you will be running only 4 tubes. This is about 33% reduction in light levels assuming you hold the same height above the water.

2. Either add more fishes and feed a bit more, or start to dose Coral Vitaliser or Amino Acids. You can order them and whilst you are waiting increase how much you feed the fishes presently in your tank.
You could even call one or two online places and ask them to ship your coral food/amino acid etc next day or in 2 days etc.

In any event, please update the thread as to whatever hopefully helps.

[daveonbass]

Thanks pusanpa...I had forgotten my lights were on longer cause I got used to using old bulbs.

[daveonbass]

Well since it will be a while before I van afford to get food from elsewhere...here's what I have done.

Lowered the over all light cycle from 10 hours to 8 hours.
Now all 6 bulbs are only on for 6 hours total.
The lights are still at the 12 inch level above the tank...I may raise them back to 14 inches.
I an going to feed a little more and see if that helps to add more nutrients to the water.

That's all for now. I want to go slow and see what results may work or not. Future things may include turning off the biopellets, pitting the skimmer on a timer, adding more fish again (a boy can dream), feeding AA's or other coral foods, staggering the lights so that only 4 bulbs come on at any time, and shortening the light cycle again...or just lower par bulbs.

But again I want to go slow and not shock the sps. I wish the Dallas club would let me borrow the par meter to test my lights. I have a feeling they are still WAY overkill.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

Well since it will be a while before I van afford to get food from elsewhere...here's what I have done.

Lowered the over all light cycle from 10 hours to 8 hours.
Now all 6 bulbs are only on for 6 hours total.
The lights are still at the 12 inch level above the tank...I may raise them back to 14 inches.
I an going to feed a little more and see if that helps to add more nutrients to the water.

That's all for now. I want to go slow and see what results may work or not. Future things may include turning off the biopellets, pitting the skimmer on a timer, adding more fish again (a boy can dream), feeding AA's or other coral foods, staggering the lights so that only 4 bulbs come on at any time, and shortening the light cycle again...or just lower par bulbs.

But again I want to go slow and not shock the sps. I wish the Dallas club would let me borrow the par meter to test my lights. I have a feeling they are still WAY overkill.

Definately take things slow and only change one thing at a time to figure out the actual issue.

Re the PAR meter, go and speak to the main reef club person and explain your situation. Even if the PAR meter is on loan to someone else, ask them to loan it to you even for a day or two after it comes back/goes to the next person. If this were my tank I would do just that. End of the day, they might say no, sorry etc but at least you tried. Good luck.

[aqua80]

Sounds a good plan !
please keep us updated !

[daveonbass]

Well, the first thing that I've already changed is the height. Just two days at 12 inches has paled out all my sps. So I'm back at 14 inches and may go up from there.

I'm also going to retest everything again today. I want to double check all my parameters. I'll post them ASAP.

[Mock]

Originally Posted by sahin

did your corals start to lose colour after your fish load went down to 3 from 13? If so, there is probably your answer. Or did other changes take place around this time as well?

Like i said earlier, your ati unit is powerful, but since you had it at 14inches above the water, i honestly dont think it an overload of light. Although it is related indirectly, ie when nutrients are very low what is usually moderate light levels can cause paleness; but the main issue is the very low nutrient level - too low.

One thing though; what do you use to test your phosphate level?

You can go two ways with this:

1. Since all ati units have at 2 tubes on one plug. Dont run that plug for 3 weeks. So you will be running only 4 tubes. This is about 33% reduction in light levels assuming you hold the same height above the water.

2. Either add more fishes and feed a bit more, or start to dose coral vitaliser or amino acids. You can order them and whilst you are waiting increase how much you feed the fishes presently in your tank.
You could even call one or two online places and ask them to ship your coral food/amino acid etc next day or in 2 days etc.

In any event, please update the thread as to whatever hopefully helps.

+1

[daveonbass]

ok, here's the current, up to the date params. Sorry for the inaccurate numbers before...It's been a week since I checked and I started dosing 2 part everyday like the instructions say to...trying to be more regular.

Temp - 79.0
Sal - 1.030
PH - 8.39
CA - 460 ppm
ALK - 11 dKH
Mag - 1625 ppm
NO3 - ~5 ppm
PO4 - 0 ppm (undetectable)

-MAG seems very High considering that I don't dose it except when the CA and ALK are used up.

-The PH has gone up and stayed much more stable now that I have been dosing CA and ALK everyday.

-ALK and CA have gone up...but I don't know if I show stop dosing it or just lower the dose because I do not want those levels to get to high and become fatal.

-even my Salinity has gone up a bit which is odd because I would have almost promised that it could only have gone down wiht all the top offs I've had to do.

I think that I will half the dose for two days and see if it stays stable, goes down, or keeps rising. If it keeps going up then I will half it again. I think that the best option for me would be to stock the tank more...so that more sps use up the elements, and so that more fish can add more poop (food?). Plus I want to feed some kind of coral food so that they may start to get a nutrient boost and start using up the elemets to grow as well. Also I think that I will keep the biopellets and skimmer running in order to handle the larger livestock load.
Also the biggest question is...should I keep the lights at the lower time schedule...and higher up away from the water (read: dimmer for less time, ie, less light overall)? Do any of you still agree that the lights in general are still too powerful? OR...should I run them just as long as I used to (10 hours, now down to 6) and hope that they "grow" during that time and use up the elemets?

either way I guess I still have an up hill battle to fight. keep the ideas coming. I have a trip to dallas this weekend for new years, and I hope to get a fish and some food (AA) on my trip home.

[daveonbass]

3/9/11


current pics 12/27/11

[pusanpa]

Nice. Your birdsnest will be much thicker branch after shortening the photo period.
My green birdsnest change very thick to very thin when it was too much lighting.

[daveonbass]

I gave a good sized frag of that birdsnest to my buddy that has a 120g with two 250w 14k mh's. His is now PINK. I can't believe it. Cause I got it because it was a neon green color. Crazy.

[Reef Bass]

Originally Posted by pusanpa

Nice. Your birdsnest will be much thicker branch after shortening the photo period.

I disagree with this. In my experience, it is flow, not light, which has a greater impact on thickness / stoutness of branching corals. More flow = shorter thicker branches. Less flow = thinner, longer branches.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Reef Bass

I disagree with this. In my experience, it is flow, not light, which has a greater impact on thickness / stoutness of branching corals. More flow = shorter thicker branches. Less flow = thinner, longer branches.

Reef Bass is correct. Higher water flow makes the corals grow with thicker branches. In area of low flow, the braches grow thin, and are more prone to accidental breakage.