Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[miguelp19]

Hello everyone! I've been going through quite a bit of pages of the thread to try and find the actual overflow design but have only found bits and pieces of everyone's design and reconfigurations and such. Can someone point me in the right direction of the actual proven design that this thread is built around please? TIA!!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Google "beananimal". first hit.

[fishbox]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Google "beananimal". first hit.

But has there been any changes that might not be on Bean's original plans? For example.... Bean's original plans call for valves on all the pipes and from following this thread I know that only the OC needs the valve .

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by fishbox

But has there been any changes that might not be on Bean's original plans? For example.... Bean's original plans call for valves on all the pipes and from following this thread I know that only the OC needs the valve .

No, it's not the open channel that needs a valve. Its the siphon line.

[BlueRoofTang]

My advice is to study how a setup like this works, rather than just listen to 100 opinions and copy one. Then you can actually modify the design to suit what you want it to do, location you're in, or whatever you need. IMO, the basic idea behind the BA setup is this:

1) Siphon line with a valve to maintain siphon
2) Open channel for slight overflow of what's not going down siphon
3) Open Emergency drain, for the event something else fails.

[BlueRoofTang]

Here is my plumbing under the tank. "They" said it wouldn't work using a header like I did, and then running it to the basement where my pumps are. However, if you really understand the BA setup, and how it works, it's a no-brainer. It's dead silent. In this video, the TV is 30+ feet away, and the cell phone is about 5in or less from the water. Turn up your volume. Notice that I don't use any hoses in the overflow box. They are not necessary at all.

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5932effe...603_131705.mp4

[miguelp19]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

Here is my plumbing under the tank. "They" said it wouldn't work using a header like I did, and then running it to the basement where my pumps are. However, if you really understand the BA setup, and how it works, it's a no-brainer. It's dead silent. In this video, the TV is 30+ feet away, and the cell phone is about 5in or less from the water. Turn up your volume. Notice that I don't use any hoses in the overflow box. They are not necessary at all.

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5932effe...603_131705.mp4

Wow, that is dead silent. The drilled holes at the top of the elbows are there to allow the syphons to start correct? Or what other purpose do they serve?

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by miguelp19

Wow, that is dead silent. The drilled holes at the top of the elbows are there to allow the syphons to start correct? Or what other purpose do they serve?

Yes, it is. It took me a few tries of using different length tubes to really figure out exactly how this setup works...the logic behind it.

The holes are there to allow the U pipes to completely fill with water. If you didn't have the holes, water is trapped in the top of them, and it would take a HUGE amount of flow to push it down to the sump. If you've ever used one of the HOB overflows with the upside down U pipe, you know how air gets trapped inside it and then you can't get the same flow through the pipe. In this type of overflow (Bean animal), you are submerging the U, so you can drill a hole in it. In all reality, you can actually remove the elbow from the siphon line if you want, adjust height accordingly, and achieve the exact same results.

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

Here is my plumbing under the tank. "They" said it wouldn't work using a header like I did, and then running it to the basement where my pumps are. However, if you really understand the BA setup, and how it works, it's a no-brainer. It's dead silent. In this video, the TV is 30+ feet away, and the cell phone is about 5in or less from the water. Turn up your volume. Notice that I don't use any hoses in the overflow box. They are not necessary at all.

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5932effe...603_131705.mp4

I can't see all of the plumbing to know what's attached to the left or right, and I assume that the siphon channel and the emergency/open channel pipes empty into the sump separately.

I'm not sure why 'they' said it would never work - In terms of running silently, it certainly will/does. The main concern with your setup is that you have a single potential failure point (the common pipe for the open channel & emergency.) If you get an obstruction after the two come together then you will have a flood. I readily agree that this is unlikely, and if the risk to you is acceptable then fine, as long as you recognize it.

The setup you have for the open channel (in inverted U with a hole at the top) is generally the 'recommended' configuration, with the height of the top of the U being equivalent to the height of the air tubing in the 'classic' setup that Bean described. When the water covers the hole, the pipe converts to a siphon in both cases.

As far as the siphon channel goes, it should start up either with or without the hole. Either way, you have to have enough flow to flush any air down. I usually recommend just having the siphon channel open at the bottom of the overflow box. The main concern with that setup is that you have vortices form, entraining air into the pipe and causing noise or disrupting the siphon. That's potentially an issue with your setup, too, but doesn't appear to be with the combination of flow vertical drop and water depth you have.

Regardless, you are right that understanding the physics helps immensely in setting up the system. The best way to do that is frequently to set it up and play around. Nothing like letting experience teach you - as long as you don't experience a flood!

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

I can't see all of the plumbing to know what's attached to the left or right, and I assume that the siphon channel and the emergency/open channel pipes empty into the sump separately.

They all feed into the one 1.5" pipe, and go down to the basement. In other words, I have only two 1.5" pipes through the floor...one supply and one return. The siphon line had to be looped outwards to accommodate the trap, while keeping the spacing needed to go up into the overflow box.

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

I'm not sure why 'they' said it would never work - In terms of running silently, it certainly will/does. The main concern with your setup is that you have a single potential failure point (the common pipe for the open channel & emergency.) If you get an obstruction after the two come together then you will have a flood. I readily agree that this is unlikely, and if the risk to you is acceptable then fine, as long as you recognize it.

One 1.5" pipe will flow more than twice what a 1" pipe will....and it'much harder to clog it than it is to clog two 1" pipes, because it would take a larger plug to do it.

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

The setup you have for the open channel (in inverted U with a hole at the top) is generally the 'recommended' configuration, with the height of the top of the U being equivalent to the height of the air tubing in the 'classic' setup that Bean described. When the water covers the hole, the pipe converts to a siphon in both cases.

True, the tubing isn't necessary at all. Actually, having the U pipe on it is really only there to help keep things quiet. Functionally speaking, all three pipes could be just straight up and open with no fittings on it and it will work the same....but may make more noise.

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

As far as the siphon channel goes, it should start up either with or without the hole. Either way, you have to have enough flow to flush any air down. I usually recommend just having the siphon channel open at the bottom of the overflow box. The main concern with that setup is that you have vortices form, entraining air into the pipe and causing noise or disrupting the siphon. That's potentially an issue with your setup, too, but doesn't appear to be with the combination of flow vertical drop and water depth you have.

I see you have a pretty good understanding of how these work.
That said, I think the possibility of a vortex forming would be greater as the "inlet" point gets closer to the top of the water. I think that is the point you're making, correct?

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Regardless, you are right that understanding the physics helps immensely in setting up the system. The best way to do that is frequently to set it up and play around. Nothing like letting experience teach you - as long as you don't experience a flood!

I agree. once I got the pump going, I figured that, worse case, I could just pull one of the pipes out and it would drain down to the sump and not overflow the tank.

I really like this setup and would do it exactly the same if I had it to do over again. My last setup was a hang on style with siphon over the tank lip....never again will I do that. I had too many mishaps that resulted in a lot of shop-vac time.

[NASAGeek]

Howdy gents and ladies....

Just got a new tank from glasscages with pre-drilled holes for a beananimal. Regretfully, they drilled the holes about an inch higher than the drawing I sent them.

SO here's my question....

1) What is the recommended (minimum) distance from the top of the emergency over flow to the top of glass? 1/2"????
2) How much distance is required from the top of the emergency overflow to the top of the syphons??

Trying to see if I can make this work.

240 gallon tank. Internal weir.

Thanks
Mark

[GQsmooth]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

Yes, it is. It took me a few tries of using different length tubes to really figure out exactly how this setup works...the logic behind it.

The holes are there to allow the U pipes to completely fill with water. If you didn't have the holes, water is trapped in the top of them, and it would take a HUGE amount of flow to push it down to the sump. If you've ever used one of the HOB overflows with the upside down U pipe, you know how air gets trapped inside it and then you can't get the same flow through the pipe. In this type of overflow (Bean animal), you are submerging the U, so you can drill a hole in it. In all reality, you can actually remove the elbow from the siphon line if you want, adjust height accordingly, and achieve the exact same results.

What size hole did you drill in the U pipe? 1/4"?

[danromero87]

Amazing set up!

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by danromero87

Amazing set up!

Looks like somebody is trying to pad their post count... Try a little harder or the mods will kick you back to 0

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by NASAGeek

Howdy gents and ladies....

Just got a new tank from glasscages with pre-drilled holes for a beananimal. Regretfully, they drilled the holes about an inch higher than the drawing I sent them.

SO here's my question....

1) What is the recommended (minimum) distance from the top of the emergency over flow to the top of glass? 1/2"????
2) How much distance is required from the top of the emergency overflow to the top of the syphons??

Trying to see if I can make this work.

240 gallon tank. Internal weir.

Thanks
Mark

Honestly, somewhere between the two. It needs to be low enough that it has time to kick in before disaster. The larger the return pump, the faster disaster can happen. Remember, with a large return pump it may kick in on startup until the siphon stabilizes. At the same time it needs to be high enough to allow some operating bandwidth without kicking in.

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

They all feed into the one 1.5" pipe, and go down to the basement. In other words, I have only two 1.5" pipes through the floor...one supply and one return. The siphon line had to be looped outwards to accommodate the trap, while keeping the spacing needed to go up into the overflow box.

One 1.5" pipe will flow more than twice what a 1" pipe will....and it'much harder to clog it than it is to clog two 1" pipes, because it would take a larger plug to do it.

True, the tubing isn't necessary at all. Actually, having the U pipe on it is really only there to help keep things quiet. Functionally speaking, all three pipes could be just straight up and open with no fittings on it and it will work the same....but may make more noise.

I see you have a pretty good understanding of how these work.
That said, I think the possibility of a vortex forming would be greater as the "inlet" point gets closer to the top of the water. I think that is the point you're making, correct?
I agree. once I got the pump going, I figured that, worse case, I could just pull one of the pipes out and it would drain down to the sump and not overflow the tank.

I really like this setup and would do it exactly the same if I had it to do over again. My last setup was a hang on style with siphon over the tank lip....never again will I do that. I had too many mishaps that resulted in a lot of shop-vac time.

I agree you’ll probably never have a problem, especially with the size difference in the pipes, but again, you leave yourself open for a single point of failure, and given your setup, it doesn’t have to clog completely, just enough to reduce the flow to less than the return pump’s flow. I’ve had snails crawl down pipes and partially block them on several occasions and plenty of other people have had bigger critters like anemones make it down. 1 snail + 1 anemone = 1 flood. Again, how much this actually increases the risk is difficult to quantify and something everyone needs to decide for themselves. My main point is that people understand the potential methods of failure so they make an informed decision. Regardless, it’s safe to say that you’re doing a lot better than a HOB overflow!

Where do you have your gate valve relative to the trap? I’m having a hard time understanding how it runs silently since there must be air in the 1.5” section of pipe. Or is the total flow just low enough that the 1.5” pipe can still run quietly, even with the air? The trap is a neat solution, but not one that I would expect to work reliably across different systems, but again I can’t totally picture your setup.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say about vortices. The likelihood of one forming depends on the size of the hole, the total flow, and the relative depth. I have a coast to coast overflow with downturned 1.25” elbows running about 1000 GPH. If the water level in the overflow is less than about ¾~1” above the bottom of the ells I start to get vortices and air entrainment.

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Where do you have your gate valve relative to the trap? I’m having a hard time understanding how it runs silently since there must be air in the 1.5” section of pipe. Or is the total flow just low enough that the 1.5” pipe can still run quietly, even with the air? The trap is a neat solution, but not one that I would expect to work reliably across different systems, but again I can’t totally picture your setup.

I'm sure there's air in the horizontal 1.5" pipe, but I made the trap all in 1" so that it would push all the air into the 1.5" section, where velocity will be slower and there's not a vertical drop to increase the noise level. I thought that if I didn't make the entire trap out of the same diameter as the vertical part of the siphon line, it wouldn't push air beyond it.

If I put my ear up really close to the emergency line, I can hear some air movement, but that's with the top off the box also. My return discharge makes more noise than the overflow, and that's because I have them just slightly above the water level. By doing that, it creates surface movement for a nice shimmering of light, and it also makes sure I don't siphon back out of it when power is off. I know there's other methods to do that, but I wanted to limit the amount of water that goes back to the sump (with powr off) as much as possible.

[fishbox]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

No, it's not the open channel that needs a valve. Its the siphon line.

Good catch 😂
Also I know it's been *** somewhere in here but does it matter if the gate valve is closer to the Overflow or closer to the sump?

[Rybren]

Originally Posted by fishbox

Good catch 😂
Also I know it's been *** somewhere in here but does it matter if the gate valve is closer to the Overflow or closer to the sump?

Most folks have the valve closer to the sump.

[fishbox]

Originally Posted by Rybren

Most folks have the valve closer to the sump.

Thanks for the Speedy response. For my own knowledge can you please tell me why one is more beneficial than the other?

[adeebm]

Hey guys, I'm going with a bean setup on my new build. Wanted to run post my plans here in case there are any errors or improvements. Tank is 50G with internal overflow and 3x 1" holes. I'm aiming for about 500gph flow, so 1" should be fine. Return will be over the top. Here are some sketches:


Tank view



Sump view

I haven't seen too many examples of internal overflow beananimals, is there a reason for that? Also, is there any reason to have a cap on each standpipe instead of just the U? For cleaning?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by fishbox

Thanks for the Speedy response. For my own knowledge can you please tell me why one is more beneficial than the other?

There is not really any pat reason one would be preferable to another... however it depends on the height of the drop. A long drop into a basement will most likely be quieter with the valve as close to the sump as possible (pressure drop across the valve.) With a normal under stand drop, it won't make any difference. The preferred placement would be whatever is most accessible.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

Yes, it is. It took me a few tries of using different length tubes to really figure out exactly how this setup works...the logic behind it.

The holes are there to allow the U pipes to completely fill with water. If you didn't have the holes, water is trapped in the top of them, and it would take a HUGE amount of flow to push it down to the sump. If you've ever used one of the HOB overflows with the upside down U pipe, you know how air gets trapped inside it and then you can't get the same flow through the pipe. In this type of overflow (Bean animal), you are submerging the U, so you can drill a hole in it. In all reality, you can actually remove the elbow from the siphon line if you want, adjust height accordingly, and achieve the exact same results.

These holes have never been required or even desirable in a BA system that has been setup properly. The issue you address is not a valid issue. Synergy Systems (where the holes idea came from) found it necessary to put holes in because their system would consistently fail, because they did not have sufficient knowledge of how the system works, but went ahead and modified it, to the point that it would no longer work, based on aesthetics, rather than proper function.

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

One 1.5" pipe will flow more than twice what a 1" pipe will....and it'much harder to clog it than it is to clog two 1" pipes, because it would take a larger plug to do it.

Your logic is not necessarily flawed, as the first point of failure will be in the 1" pipe, not the 1.5" "manifold" thing. On the other hand, a single point of failure in this system is not wise, and it as not safe to assume the 1.5" pipe will not occlude or be hard to occlude than the 1". There are many reasons a pipe may occlude, and it is a combination of these things that make a single failure point a poor practice.

The flow capacity of a piping system is dependent on the SMALLEST diameter. Therefore the flow capacity of the 1.5" pipe is pretty much irrelevant, for anything more than friction loss calculations.

But let's look at the basic functionality of BA's design. Three discreet pipes, each with a unique function. What you actually have is an over-engineered Herbie type setup, because in the end, you only have two discreet pipes, the double top on one is irrelevant. When people tell you it "won't work" they are right: it will not work as a BA system is supposed to, because it is not a BA system, rather a two pipe system, more inline with Herbie... in the context of this thread, a BA has 3 discreet pipes; redundant statements to make it more clear what "It won't work" means...

The basic safety features of the system rely on each pipe in and of itself being capable of "siphon" mode. Scenario: Siphon plugs. Dry emergency takes flow (which it normally should not.) Water level rises, Dry emergency goes through spasms as air purges, ultimately should achieve "siphon mode," e.g no air in the line. With the system you describe, that is not going to happen. Air will continue to be drawn in through the open channel. The air intake will increase, due to increased water flow down line, and make the system more unstable: more air = less water.

The system will continue to be unstable until the open channel allows no more air to enter. This is basically defeating the whole concept of Bean's system, and you may as well be running an improper Herbie (a siphon with a trickle drain.)

Instability is not necessarily a bad thing, as it alerts to a problem, but that really isn't the point here.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by adeebm

Hey guys, I'm going with a bean setup on my new build. Wanted to run post my plans here in case there are any errors or improvements. Tank is 50G with internal overflow and 3x 1" holes. I'm aiming for about 500gph flow, so 1" should be fine. Return will be over the top. Here are some sketches:


Tank view



Sump view

I haven't seen too many examples of internal overflow beananimals, is there a reason for that? Also, is there any reason to have a cap on each standpipe instead of just the U? For cleaning?

I have many examples of this systems set up as designed, as well as examples that have been modified (within limitations of the design.) I simply do not wish to get deeply involved with show and tell. I am not the only one that follows directions, and does not have a need to try to re-invent the wheel. Thousands of these systems built as designed are in use. You don't see them because they do not draw views, hits, likes, oooosss and ahhhhhssss because they work out of the box as promised... some have stepped up and said so, mostly what is seen however, is the desire to change this or that because of this or that... and it don't work because of both this and that...

The reason is real estate inside the tank. I find that to be invalid as it is only several inches at the top of the tank, unusable real estate. Some worry about light loss, but there is plenty of light as the physics of light in a liquid are different than in the atmosphere...(well not exactly) pretty much a lot of do about nothing. Shoving the system into small external boxes, and small internal overflows, simply defeats the efficiency. IT is a complete system. These modifications take the technology backwards. E.G. long flat weirs back to small toothed weirs. For the most part I suspect it is just misunderstanding how it all works together, and why.

The system is fine as designed, and also when "modified within certain limitations" functions as it should. Problems occur, when aesthetics, or convenience overrule the basic design criteria. Hence a 1000 opinions about a system that is very simple and straightforward... and the seemingly unending revisiting of the same mods/problems/solutions time and again...

[GQsmooth]

Alright. I got my system plumbing setup, I am having a hard time dialing in the siphon line, as its expelling bubbles, I pinched the valve back a bit to raise the water level in the overflow as it was kind of low, it helped but then I went to much and the open channel started taking the brunt of the load of the water.

Also my level in the tank is a bit below the black trim which is an eyesore =( Anyway to raise it up? I noticed if I increase the pump output it helps a bit.

How are you guys dialing your return pump/ siphon line?