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Old 01/07/2007, 09:01 PM   #26
fishymann
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i thought bio wheels were bad? also at 400GPH thats DOUBLE the amount of turn overs per hour in the tank than what ann was recomending


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Old 01/07/2007, 09:41 PM   #27
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More turnover is good, more flow is bad. Unfortunately with the Marineland biowheels you can't turn down the flow. With a canister, you need a spraybar b/c the seahorses definately can't handle the flow from one of those without it. That being said, cannisters are still a good idea. So are refugiums. I don't know the exact wattage you need for your LR, but often people recommend the wattage to grow the purple coraline, but the rock doesn't need coraline to be alive. Definately get at least 1 pound of LR per gallon of water. The requirements for a seahorse aquarium are different from that of a reef aquarium. I suggest you double check all of your ideas at www.seahorse.org.


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Old 01/07/2007, 10:06 PM   #28
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Yes ann is exactly right. I guess I just play it safe with the lighting. I was just
suggesting that if you use a HOB..that the marineland bio wheels were the best
HOB filter...You want as much turnover as possible. But I would rather say go with
the canister. Yes the seahorses like it calm and not alot of flow,so yes you need a
spraybar. Because Im running mine into my 125 wet/dry connected to my 75
gallon...Im using an overflow, which I personaly believe is the best way to do it.

But for you, I would say a fluval 205 or 305 canister with a spraybar..would be
your best option. Unless you want to invest in a wet/dry.


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Old 01/07/2007, 10:06 PM   #29
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alright, ill be sure to register there and start asking for their help.


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Old 01/08/2007, 04:34 AM   #30
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Fishyman. Sounds like a nice seahorse system you are planning. 37 gallon is a good size.

Quote:
The requirements for a seahorse aquarium are different from that of a reef aquarium
Yes they are. Anne gave lots and lots of good advice. For lighting, you don't need anything fancy unless, as Anne wrote, you are keeping corals. Live rock requires 0 light. Its live because of the bacteria and invertibrate life it carries. Many corline algae need very little light to grow.

I used 2 40w NO fluorescent over my 40g breeder for two years. I was able to grow macro algae and coraline under those lights just fine. I even managed to keep some Discosoma mushroom corals alive under these lights though they did not really grow.

Go with whatever lighting you find pleasing to the eye. Power compacts will probably fit better over a hex tank. 1x 65 is a reasonable starting point.

Live rock and sand are there for decoration and for filgration/nitrogen processing. I personally would go with both live rock and sand as that gives you more flexibility on aquascaping.

The 1lb of rock per gallon is an old rule of thumb form way back that is meaningless given what we now know about filtration and bioload processing. There is nothing wrong with using lots of rock, its just not needed.

Basically you have a bunch of tools at your disposal to maintain good water quality: live rock and sand, skimmers, water changes, adsorptive media, macro algae ...

I personally like to use a combination of live rock, live sand and macro algae. The rock and sand support lots of worms and critters that will eat and help process extra food and waste from your horses. They also act as a surface for bacteria that further process waste as well as converting nitrates to harmles nitrogen gas.

Macro algae is good for also absorbing an using nitrogen and phosphates and getting them out of your system before they drive the growth of nuisance algae. On top of that, they act as a good home for amphipods and copepods: live food for your seahorses.

Skimmers are very good in that they remove a lot of waste before it breaks down into basic elements like nitrate and phosphate. There are some good threads on skimmers and how they work in the advanced forum

There are a lot of threads in this forum on starting a seahorse tank and I would suggest that you take a day or two to browse through those posts as well. There is a lot of good info in these posts.

Fred


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Old 01/08/2007, 01:12 PM   #31
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alright, im going to post this up at seahorse.org but im waiting for the admin to OK me.

Option 1:
37 Gallon
Stock lighting
Aquaclear 110
15-20Lbs of LIVE ROCK
2” bed of Aragalive Reef Sand

Option 2:
37 Gallon
30” Satellite 1x65 Watt w\lunar light
Aquaclear 110
15-20Lbs of LIVE ROCK
2” bed of Aragalive Reef Sand

Option 3:
37 Gallon
30” dual Satellite 2x65 Watt w\lunar light
fluval 205
15-20Lbs of LIVE ROCK
2” bed of Aragalive Reef Sand

Basically i just realized i have a 37G sitting around so that just saved me money so i think option 1 is pointless and i mine as well spend the extra money for option 2 but would that be okay? Also i lowered the amount of rock because of fred's comment.


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Old 01/10/2007, 09:49 PM   #32
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Dont forget a good protien skimmer..


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Old 01/11/2007, 12:24 PM   #33
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thats one thing i had no idea if i needed or not. can anyone suggest one that would be good for this tank?


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Old 01/12/2007, 10:13 PM   #34
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ALright, i need help. SKimmer yes or no? I'm 99% sure im going with the aquaclear 110 filter. Also the room temp is around 70F degrees so i only need to raise the temperature about 4 degrees (correct?) so would a 50Watt heater be fine or 100?
Also i'm gonna call up my LFS and find out about what they have as far as sand, so how many pounds do i need and what type?


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Old 01/12/2007, 10:31 PM   #35
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Don't go with the 50 Watt. The 100 Watt should be fine, but the heater is really something you should spend your money on. If it goes haywire it could electrocute or overheat the aquarium. Some people will actually get two 50's on opposite ends of the aquarium instead of a 100, b/c it more evenly heats the aquarium and it also gives the fish someplace to run if one of them decides to cook the aquarium.
Skimmers are up to debate for a seahorse aquarium. Lots of seahorse keepers don't use them, and lots swear by them. It used to be that people thought skimmers contributed to gas bubble disease and pouch emphasyma, but I think that has been debunked. The big thing is, skimmers don't work as well in lower salinities because particles don't stay suspended in the column as long (reef tanks are kept at higher salinity than fish only aquariums), and they also MAY strip the water of nutrients that macro algae need, and many seahorse keepers keep macro algae in their aquarium for their horses.
30 lbs of sand should be fine for a shallow sand bed. Depending on the design of your aquarium, 15 or 20 may even be fine for a SSB. If you want a deep sand bed, I don't know how much you need. For an SSB, you only need 1" of sand, for a DSB you need 3" or more. Put the LR in first so that it sits flat on the bottom of the aquarium and won't shift as much. You want argonite sand, not silica-based sand. Any brand is fine, and it doesn't need to be live.
Also, when considering heaters and temperature, in the summer, will the room the aquarium is in get above 76 degrees? If it will, you may need to consider a chiller, or at least the possiblility that you will need to run a clip on fan aimed at the surface (which means higher electricity costs and more purchases of RO/DI water since there will be more evaporation).
What species are you considering keeping?


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Old 01/12/2007, 11:19 PM   #36
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Protein skimmers suck on seahorses tanks. They do They suck in water to work.

The correlation through purely ancedotal evidence on the relationship between HOB protein skimmers and GBDis real, and has not been disproven to my satisfaction. I conceed many of the studies by University's and PHD marine biologists don't seem to stand up to the scrutiny of the members of this site, but whatever.

Skimmers do remove certain wastes, but they also remove life that will be used as food, and directly compete with macro algaes.

Skimmers rob system of food = bad

Refugiums provide food = good.

Both reduce nitrates, and provide cleaner water. Anyways.

I guess if your not planning on keeping maro algaes, and are going with a shallow sand bed, as well as running the system without a sump, then I would probably run a HOB skimmer as well. I like the Aqau C remora. I use it on my 20g SPS tank, in the sump, it doesn't pull out much but I do have a 40g sump filled with macro . . . so. It is a good skimmer that produces very little micro bubbles if any at all.

I too am planning a 37g tank soon. I'm assuming from your lighting description your going with the 30" by 12" footprint. Lighting is a chore. I really like T5 lights for seahorse tanks since they put out so much light and burn so cool, but unfortunatley they don't seem to make a 30" T5 fixture. I do have a 30" satelite fixture in my garage. I liked it but it did produce some heat even with the exhaust fan and the mounting brackets keeping it a couple inches off the tank surface.

Liverock is my favorite filter, but I like to run mechanical as well. Look into the Magnum HOB cannister filter as it is a great filter with an outstanding reputation and gives you control over the media you use.

As far as the heater, i'd do a 50w. 74F is the recommended maxium temperature. Not the needed temp. If your keeping tropical species without corals 70F is fine. Personally on my horse only tanks I set the heater at 70F and leave it there. Seahorses will do fine at 70 and far lower. The lower temp is great for long term succsess. Cooling tanks is usually more of an issue then heating tanks for most hobbyists. As long as your not dropping below 68F for tropical horses I would not worry, even then if not long term lower temps are dandy.

I plan on running my 37g tall seahorse tank with many species of macro algae, a 25g sump with a "cryptic zone" like Tyree speaks of, a fluval 304, 40 lbs of LR, a 1" sandbed, an 18w UV and either the 130w satellite fixture or a 150w MH bulb. SHould be fun.

Did you register on the org yet? What's your SN.


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Old 01/12/2007, 11:24 PM   #37
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Forgot, for the sandbed your going to need about one bag of Carbi Live sand. I really like to use livesand in my tanks and suggest others do the same. Total sand needed for a 2" bed is 23 lbs (as caculated by RC's sandbed caculator). Less is fine, but IMO you either need to do 2" or under or more then 4". Since it's seahorses and they like the height I opt for the shallower bed for the display. If you were going to use a sump or reugium a DSB there would be great.

HTH


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Old 01/13/2007, 06:59 AM   #38
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awesome guys thanks so much for the quick response. I found a dealer on ebay 1.5$\lb for live base rock. SO i think i'm going to get most from that and i think i'm going to just go with non live sand (cheaper, and the fact that live sand isnt needed)

As far as temp, the summers change like crazy where i live. one day it can be 80s outside and another day it can be low 70s. There is a powerful air conditioner in the room where it will be going so that could help cool down the tank.

Species is the next question, i've heard of Hippocampus reidi, Hippocampus erectus and dwarf but i understand dwarf are really only ment to be in nano setups. So i was sort of wonder what kinds are easy to keep easy enough to find. Also from what i've read two females will be the easiest to keep? ANyone suggest any online stores?


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Old 01/13/2007, 08:32 AM   #39
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www.seahorsesource.com and www.dracomarine.org both get good reviews from seahorse keepers and reliably sell captive bred species. You want a tropical species, so Reidi, Kuda, Erectus, and Barbouri are all commonly available species that you could easily keep. Dwarf's are difficult because they need a nano and hatched brine shrimp, so they definately wouldn't work for you. Also, avoid subtropical and temperate species, like the potbelly seahorse because those need a chiller. Don't order from somewhere where their prices are good, because their horses are likely wild caught or pen-raised, which means more diseases and parasites and less likelihood that they will eat frozen. Have you registered at www.seahorse.org yet? You really should spend a week or two reading on the org before you put in cleanup crew, and definately before you put in horses. Really, while you are waiting for your tank to cycle and your live rock to cure, you should have several weeks to spend on the web site looking around and asking questions. It also will probably help you decide which horses you want.


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Old 01/13/2007, 09:27 AM   #40
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i'm having trouble with seahorse.org it keeps giving me problems with registering. After looking around i think im going to go with the kuda, adult size around 5 inches 72-77Fdegrees. Here is where im confused, i googled the Kuda and got that as the "average" information. I went to live aquaria to look at prices and they are saying up to one foot and at least 50Gallons
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...fm?pCatId=2179
HUH?

Here is sort of what im doing and such:
Im waiting to hear back from a buddy of mine about another tank, once i get the tank the 37Gallon will be available. I need to buy a stand, the lighting, the filter, the heater, the sand, and the rock (sand and rock might be from ebay found a few good deals), fill it with water allow it to cylce\ cure.

All of that im planning on doing over the span of two or three months. Because of both money restrictions and i want to take this slow, so yes i will have plenty of time to research befor any live stock is added.

One final thing for this post, since im going to be getting the 2x65 watt nynex said that would be enough to add some coral later on. Until then what should i add for the SH to perch on? branch rock but anything else?


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Old 01/13/2007, 11:43 AM   #41
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With Kuda, you need to be careful that you are getting the correct species and that they are actually captive bred. When a supplier doesn't know what kind of seahorse they have, they have a tendency to call them "Kuda". I'd find it suspect if a supplier said their "Kuda" get 12" tall, or if they don't specifically say they are captive bred. See www.seahorsesource.com and www.dracomarine.org, they both have true captive bred Kuda. It's worth the extra $5 or $10 per horse to know that you have healthy captive bred true Kudas. Also know that no matter what color it says you are ordering, the seahorse will probably change color, so there really isn't a point to ordering color.
As for hitching posts, you can use macro algae like caulerpa, as well as fake plants. You can also use dried or fake branching corals like staghorns. Nylon rope and anything else they can wrap their tails around works also. Macros are nice though since they also provide some biological filtration and look more natural.
Contact the administrators on seahorse.org if you are having trouble getting registered. In the meantime you should still be able to browse the site.


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Old 01/13/2007, 11:58 AM   #42
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one thing about the lighting. What type of top should i put on this? I thought i read some where that with compact flourescents you shouldn't have anything covering the water if so can i maybe use a piece of acrylic to cover the part of the tank that the light isnt on (for example the light is towards the back of the tank so i cover the front) The only reason i ask is because i have cats and last thing i need is dead horses and dead cats.


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Old 01/14/2007, 12:43 AM   #43
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hey fishymann,
just read the thread. First wanted say to thank ann for providing a lot of great info. For your most recent question, if you have a cat, you need a top. I don't have a seahorse tank, but I helping someone along with one at my school.

One thing i have heard suggested is to go barebottom. This can help cleaning food from the bottom that the SH dont eat which would help with nutrients especially if your not doing macro algae and no skimmer.

I would really recommend using macro, you can get some of the lower light ones with 1 65 watt is seems like. Great hitches and great for water quailty, PERFECT for a SH tank.

I would not skimp on live rock because of the possibe diseases that SH can pick up without perfect water quality. If you do go the bb approach get more than 20 lbs, and even so I would consider more. If you over feed one day, the last thing you would want is an ammonia spike.

A while back you mentioned adding live rock a little at a time, you could do this but it would take very long to cycle. You would cycle with the first set of rock and then go through mini cycles with the next rock if your not using cured LR. Uncured is usually cheaper and has no ill effects other than extra time.

I like Option 2:

37 Gallon with a 30” Satellite 1x65 Watt w\lunar light. Sounds good!

Aquaclear 110 sounds good, consider some of the mods people do to them. They are great filters! A lot people switch around the media, opting to dispose of the ceramic ball things because they create extra nitrates, but do do a good job with ammonia and trate. Also, poeple make them into a fuge.

15-20Lbs of LIVE ROCK....again, ask around, but maybe consider more not sure this is needed?

2” bed of Aragalive Reef Sand---again, i would weigh out the pros and cons of sand i.e. sand means harder to clean, but looks better and offers more breeding ground for nitrifying bacteria.

Another thing is to buy the recent magazines of the major publications, FAMA and TFH, get the last few back issues because they have soom good articles on Sea Horse Tanks, it seems they are hot right now.

Ann recommended a couple weeks on seahorse.org, but I did 1 month and felt i should of done more before helping my classmate with her project. That is before we even bought the tank, rock anything. Of course that means it will be more like 2 months before anything goes in, but the number one rule is patience.

Lastly, you should be applauded for your willingness to not only ask for information but to listen to it as well. I hope you continue to ask q's here and on seahorse.org for a while before getting started. You should consider making a log of your tanks process as it goes up. Though it will be quite some time before you get the animals, watching your rock become alive, and even the set up is fun. Good luck, and I hope to learn from your trials, and more of Ann's comments as this thread continues.


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Old 01/14/2007, 06:49 AM   #44
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thank you very much LekicINC for the kind words. I'm going with the 2x65watt lighting right off the bat. I am getting good responses over from the .org .

One thing i find funny is theres another kid here asking for help on setting up a tank (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...25#post8977325)
And all he is getting advice against it, so I'm very glad that you guys are not trying to turn me against it.

I'll ask around more about barebottom or not, i feel like if i go bare bottom i'll have a lot less bacteria and little critters to help clean up.
for the rock im thinking 10-15lbs of live base rock (found a guy on ebay super cheap) and then to make 10-15lbs of branch rock, i realize thats just about a 1:1 ratio but i'm in no rush to get this tank setup, i'm taking my time and am planning on taking at least one month from the time i purchase the last thing, until the rock is in the tank


oh, also how do you "grow" macros?


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Old 01/14/2007, 07:36 AM   #45
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2X 65 is better!
My opinion is this, if you take it slowly you can do it. It's one thing to not get something if its important because the money is too high, but its totally different to just try and find the most economic solution to it. So far, the only thing you have been "skimping" on is Live Rock, which you should get more opinions on. LR (along with mechanical filtration) is what keeps your tank running. Base rock will needed to be seeded with live rock that contains bacteria. The bacteria will then need to spread to the base rock. This could take A LOT of time. It may take a while to learn to feed the sea horses without making a HUGE mess, what happends to all the brine and mysis shrimp that are uneaten? They decompose in the tank creating ammonia spikes that can be quickly handled by the microscopic friends living on your rock turning it to the far less toxic nitrate. However, if you dont have enough bacteria, some will stay as ammonia (deadly). Thus the importance of making sure the base rock becomes "live" rock before adding fish, or maybe even a clean-up crew.

Now it may seem I would be contradicting myself by then saying consider bare bottom. 1. I am not sure about this method so its only something to look into, and 2. my theory is that if you can remove the nutrients (siphoning out the food, poop etc.) then there is less work for the bacteria, esp. with just 15 lbs of rock which is really where most of the biological filtration will take place.

What do you plan on using in your AC? Sponge, ceramics, just carbon? This is something you should consider while consider the amount of LS and LR, because they can effect nutrient breakdown as well.

Whats the arguement against Protein skimmers for the sea horse tank, because that would help remove nutrients as well.

That said, you are familar with nitrification from freshwater tanks, if you didnt knwo this stuff already I would be concerned. Also, you should know the importance of water changes which will be a similar method but a totally different experience. Much more frequent and with care in temperature and salinity matching. What will you be doing for you water source (tap water is strongly not recommended).

So, patience is the key. Try adding the rock, test your water and if you need more add more before you get living things in there. Then get a crew and spend a couple weeks practicing WC and feeding with just the clean up crew. Then get the sea horses. Forums are the best, but basic articles in mags, books and the internet are essential, because a lot of knowledge is assumed to be known on forums. I would spend at least another month planning and reading , then get all your equipment, not to forget 2 heaters, hydrometer and a FULL test kit, PLUS a water source. Then get the rock and sand, wait about a month, probably longer for the method your going with for a cycle. Then add some living stuff, practice water changes, keeping nitrates down for a few weeks. SHs wont come till around April.


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Old 01/14/2007, 08:54 AM   #46
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oh yes i know the importance of wc and water purification. i'm going to have to find another water source though for my SH tank other than the tap (any ideas?)

Also i'm not trying to cut corners with less rock, i'm going to have to find places other than my LFS to buy it because they charge 5$ a pound :O! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ype=osi_widget
thats the rock i was looking at getting.


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Old 01/14/2007, 01:00 PM   #47
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Water source: RO/DI (reverse osmosis / distilled). You can get this at your petstore, or better yet, at walmart, your grocery store, or lots of times pharmacies and gas stations. Basically, find "drinking water" that has been treated using reverse osmosis and distillation. I use my tap, but I have good tap for saltwater so all I have to add is Amquel Plus to remove the chloramine.
Getting some good live rock is so nice. Really, try posting on your local board at www.craigslist.com under "items wanted", and also on your local saltwater board if you've found it. That way the LR has already been cured and established in another aquarium so it is full of life and ready to go, and usually cheaper than your LFS. Don't bother getting cured if it has to be shipped, b/c there will still be die off. But, I would search the internet for sites selling pre-cured rock (uncured will make your aquarium room really stink). Off the top of my head, I'd try liveaquaria.com and floridapets.com, but try google and see what you come up with.
Look up "feeding station" on seahorse.org. That will save you from doing a bare bottom or having seahorse food floating around rotting in your aquarium. You put a cup shaped fake coral, shell, reptile bowl, petri dish, etc. somewhere in your aquarium. Then when it is time to feed, you turn off or turn down your filter and/or powerheads, drop the food in the using rigid clear tubing, wait for them to eat it, and then remove the uneaten portion with a turkey baster. You do have to train them to the feeding station.


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Old 01/14/2007, 04:24 PM   #48
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what is this "good tap for saltwater" what type of parameters are we talking


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Old 01/14/2007, 04:40 PM   #49
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No phospates, no copper, decent source of calcium, allows me to maintain stable pH at 8.3 without buffering.


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Old 01/14/2007, 05:22 PM   #50
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i know my lfs has salt water and freshwater "on tap" sold by the gallon (when i say on tap i mean you its like a hose and you can fill up a bucket). is that what i would want or more like bottled water?


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