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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:40 AM   #51
shred5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aandfsoccr04 View Post
It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.
Designer clowns are neither rare or uncommon and have been around along time. Maybe it is more young people get caught up in the hype more and the I have to have.. Maybe the soap box is the other way around.. Oh look what I spent, it might be ugly but I spent a fortune on it. Mine cost more than yours.

I don't have to pay a fortune for stuff. I have been in the hobby long enough and some of those LE corals you are buying were mine or were friends of mine. I have gave away so much coral in my life most people wont charge me for corals they have, I am just smart enough to know how simple it is to propagate corals and enough demand creates allot of propagation. I do not have to have right away and will get it free or cheap later. I have been in the hobby long enough to learn not to waste money except on things that are truly rare.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:48 AM   #52
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I don't want to steer this off-topic, but what do you think of Onyx clowns? Do they fall into the "designer clown" category? I've seen many wild Onyx so I assume it's not a genetic flaw, but a different phenotype based on a specific geographic location. I purchased a pair of Rod's clowns since I wanted a pair of captive bred clowns, but I also liked the black dorsal, and I knew that Rod's clowns expressed the black dorsal with more frequency than other captive bred Onyx clowns. I don't think I ever referred to them as "designer" though.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:55 AM   #53
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I don't want to steer this off-topic, but what do you think of Onyx clowns? Do they fall into the "designer clown" category? I've seen many wild Onyx so I assume it's not a genetic flaw, but a different phenotype based on a specific geographic location. I purchased a pair of Rod's clowns since I wanted a pair of captive bred clowns, but I also liked the black dorsal, and I knew that Rod's clowns expressed the black dorsal with more frequency than other captive bred Onyx clowns. I don't think I ever referred to them as "designer" though.
Rods clowns were from the original c-quest pair several generation later. I am not sure if they are defective or not. It was thought there was a defective gene. They are beautiful clowns none the less. Rod is a friend and is a good breeder. His female died this past year so I am not sure we will be seeing anymore.

I personally don't care if people buy these designer clowns its when someone tells me I am on my high horse for not preferring them and thinking most are ugly that gets me angry.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:57 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by aandfsoccr04 View Post
It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.
This has more to do with the older folks trying to educate the younger folks on the history of how something came into existence. As many of us have already mentioned, you can do whatever ever you want with that information.

Let me school you on something while we're at it. 99% of the rare fish collected (aberrant colors, hybrids, etc.) go to the Asian market -- usually to older Asian businessmen. Trust me, "designer" clowns are not what the big dogs buy.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:59 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by aandfsoccr04 View Post
It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.
You mean we don't like these fish because we're a bunch of old fogies who hate change? Give me a break.

FWIW, I'm over 40, and I didn't get into this hobby until about 4 or 5 years ago--at an age when I was already old and rigid and hopelessly set in my ways, by your standards. I don't have any problem with innovation. I just switched my reef tank over to that newfangled LED lighting and like it just fine.

What most of the posters here who have posted negative opinions are saying is that it's not designer morphs they're objecting to, but misshapen fish with protruding jaws, stubby fins, and the like. A good, conscientious breeder can produce designer morphs without sacrificing other important considerations like shape and form (which also are part of the fish's beauty). As long as designer clowns are shaped like normal, healthy, wild-form clownfish, I don't care if they come out polka-dotted.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 10:01 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by aandfsoccr04 View Post
It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.
OR it could mean that many of these people starting breeding clowns years ago. It could mean that they made many of the simple beginner mistakes that the new breeders are making. It could mean that they were part of the process to improve husbandry, feeding, and other best practices that new breeders are ignoring. It could mean that they feel dismayed that all of their work is being ignored so someone can make a fast buck.

And I don't call it "hating". I call it wisdom and experience. I don't "hate" any designer clown breeder, but I'll call a bad quality clown when I see one - REGARDLESS of its color or pattern.

Quote:
You are stating your opinion, however the science and genetics behind the animal says just the opposite.

The entire reason an unusual pattern exists is BECAUSE of a genetic flaw.
There are genetics, and there are environmental factors. Give me a full spawn of clowns and I can raise 50% with top quality water and husbandry and high-end food, and end up with a very low rate of abnormalities and brilliant color, high contrast clean pattern, active fish. Meanwhile I will take the other half, raise them in less than optimal conditions, and achieve 95% or more poor quality fish with high abnormalities, poor color, etc.

People who don't breed clowns don't understand what a fine line there is between great quality and ok or poor quality. Much of the development of marine fish happens at the larval stage when the tiniest change in environment can have a dramatic impact. Professional breeders track their breeding efforts to the nth degree... tracking their survival rates, grading their fish, tracking their quality over time, etc. When you spend years and thousands of dollars to improve your breeding program by the narrowest margin, trust me when I say that you can look at other fish and tell poor quality from excellent quality at a glance... and it has almost NOTHING to do with genetics.

You want to know why many of the pro breeders use circular larval tanks with circular water pattern and center lighting? It was because they were finding that when they used rectangular tanks the larval fish were impacting the sides and causing a high rate of pug nose and broken jaw. So they invested a ton of money to create systems to keep larval fish away from the sides as much as possible. They cull pug noses and broken jaws as environmental abnormalities NOT GENETICS. Yet I see garage breeders selling pug nose fish all the time... because they don't know better and/or they don't care because to them it is a quick $200 they can get from an unsuspecting hobbyist.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 10:11 AM   #57
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I personally don't care if people buy these designer clowns its when someone tells me I am on my high horse for not preferring them and thinking most are ugly that gets me angry.
It sure doesn't seem like you don't care if people buy these. Sounds like it bothers you. Your not on your horse about not preferring them that's your choice, Your on your horse for thinking we should all have the same thing.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 10:25 AM   #58
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It sure doesn't seem like you don't care if people buy these. Sounds like it bothers you. Your not on your horse about not preferring them that's your choice, Your on your horse for thinking we should all have the same thing.
This is degenerating into "You think you're better than me!" That's not the case at all, and it's not what's at issue. No one is attacking or belittling the posters who like designer clownfish. They're objecting to poor breeding and husbandry. The critical comments aren't personal attacks and shouldn't be taken personally.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 10:52 AM   #59
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For the record, I think a HIGH QUALITY picasso clown can look amazing! Low quality... not so much.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 12:19 PM   #60
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No one is attacking or belittling the posters who like designer clownfish. They're objecting to poor breeding and husbandry. The critical comments aren't personal attacks and shouldn't be taken personally.



Agreed.

For what its worth, I personally like the look of some of the "designer" fish. At another time in my life I was involved in breeding Leopard Geckos. That was back when you paid close to $1000 for a "jungle" patterned gecko that now sells for $69 at PetSmart. But the top breeders in that hobby essentially wiped out smaller breeders because they could produce masses of these designer patters, remove the obviously deformed animals from the breeding population, saturate the market and not incur any substantial financial loss.

I think we're seeing the exact same thing now.

Breeding clownfish is not a regulated hobby. It is incumbent upon the breeders and the hobbyists to strike a happy medium. We as hobbyists want the designer patterns but we must also demand that the health of the fish is not compromised. It is then on the breeder to produce healthy animals that still retain enough of the desired trait to remain profitable to them. Fine line.

If dog breeders were churning out puppies with misshapen faces, arched backs and wide set eyes there would be a public outcry.

Not so with fish and reptiles.

So it comes down to us. I think thats what bothers me most.

I don't care if you like a clownfish that looks like someone threw up on it, but you should be demanding that the fish is of the highest quality otherwise. Unfortunately we are too early in the development phase of these designer fish to have that part worked out yet...hence the sale of "underbite psychedelic picasso ocellaris" that will be the jewel of some poor saps collection. (until it dies)


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Unread 05/08/2012, 01:06 PM   #61
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I thought that post would cause a lot of feedback so my mission was accomplished. I agree with some points and not so much with others. There is a lot to post so I will just bite my tongue, making sure I'm abiding by the UA, and say that just purchase whatever you like. I'm not crazy in love with all the "designer" clowns and don't think that all picassos or onyx or what have you are created equal. I searched for months before I finally decided on my pair of clowns and think that they are beautiful and very appealing to my eyes which is why the price tag was worth it to me.

If you prefer the wild caught genetically correct straight from the ocean percula or ocellaris then that's cool with me too.

What's not to like:



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Unread 05/08/2012, 01:46 PM   #62
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What's not to like
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can see at a glance the quality of this fish. Beautiful body shape, clean lines, good fins, plump, flawless white, ink velvet black, uniform bright orange, sharp markings with crisp clean margins. Aside from the markings, it would be very difficult to distinguish this fish from a wild caught holotype. If we can breed one fish like this, why can't they ALL be like this?


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Unread 05/08/2012, 02:06 PM   #63
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I thought this was what we were talking about the whole time!!!!! I was just defending what I had in my head as a "designer" clown fish. I appreciate your very high praise as I respect your opinion after reading over your well informed posts over the past year or so. Thank you sir


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Unread 05/08/2012, 02:07 PM   #64
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Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).




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Unread 05/08/2012, 02:26 PM   #65
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What's not to like:
Absolutely nothing...because that's a beautiful, healthy fish! Nicely shaped head, no flared gills, jutting jaws, or any other flaws. THAT is the model of what a designer clownfish should be, and proof that you can get unusual markings without sacrificing the fish's natural beauty.

Incidentally, I'm a big fan/promoter of aquaculture, so I would never favor wild-caught over captive-bred. As your photo proves, captive-bred fish can look every bit as good as their wild brethren.

BTW, Bonsai, those koi make me wish I could afford a house with a huge koi pond.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 02:30 PM   #66
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BTW, Bonsai, those koi make me wish I could afford a house with a huge koi pond.
Careful what you ask for, because it's a slippery slope until you end up here




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Unread 05/08/2012, 02:35 PM   #67
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But what a way to go!


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Unread 05/08/2012, 03:11 PM   #68
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Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).

So which is which??


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Unread 05/08/2012, 03:27 PM   #69
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So which is which??
From left to right... highest quality, high quality, moderate quality.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 05:53 PM   #70
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From left to right... highest quality, high quality, moderate quality.
That was my guess - usually healthy fish have that shape. Though, I must admit, not being familiar with koi, the fins on the second look 'better' to me than on the one on the left.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 05:59 PM   #71
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Here's one for you, aandfsoccr04. One of these koi is worth more than $24,000 (a LOT more - having placed 3rd overall in the All Japan Koi Show). One is selling for $2,400. And one is selling for $240. Can you tell the difference They are all the EXACT same variety, but their shape, fins, colors, markings clearly differentiate quality. This is a combination of genetics, husbandry AND aggressive culling (given that one adult female koi can spawn 300,000 eggs). We should be able to do the exact same thing with clowns - and people should be able to look at clowns and tell dramatic differences in quality just as easily. (And don't get me wrong - the $240 koi in this example is still nicer than 95% of the koi you see for sale here in the US).


I'd say the one on the left is the most expensive one. It has the brightest colors and is the biggest. I don't know about the other two.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 07:05 PM   #72
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That was my guess - usually healthy fish have that shape. Though, I must admit, not being familiar with koi, the fins on the second look 'better' to me than on the one on the left.
Check out this video:

2012 All Japan Nishikigo Show Grand Champion

Forward to :40 to see this monster swimming. It is a 6 year-old that is over 3' long.

Because koi are viewed from above (normally in ponds) all judging is done from above as well (versus clowns which are viewed from the side). The single most important consideration is an "imposing appearance" which often means the fish that combines attributes of size with a projection of health. It should "radiate" power.

Generally speaking, the other categories on which a koi is judged is:
(1) Conformation (body size, shape, symmetry, etc)
(2) Color (quality of color, consistency, depth, skin tone, finish etc)
(3) Pattern (design of pattern, definition of edges, etc)
(4) Quality (sometimes includes unique impressions of fish)

There is a LOT written on koi judging. Generally only females are shown because they have the girth to project a powerful impression. Of the 3 koi I pictured, the last one is a male. He is skinnier, but his sumi (black coloration) has not yet developed. You can see it a little under the skin. When his black comes up he may become a much more valuable fish.


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:09 PM   #73
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I agree with everyone in this thread. I am a breeder of clowns and I am working on making designer clowns as well as tomatoes, saddles, fire and clarkii. My fav clowns are tricinctus and Chrysopterus. I am a fan of the basic clowns, but I love the designers as well. Hopefully some more start laying for me in the future. For me there is no question about the quality of fish I want to sell. I have yet to sell any fish due to me wanting to get better at it. I spend over $200 per month on food for my broodstock to produce the best fry. My fish eat better than I do. They get yellow fin tuna beautiful salmon and tons of shellfish. I fine tune my recipe as the fry hatch to make better and better offspring.
I love designer clowns and I know alot of Breeders that do care as much as I do, and others not so much. Even Ora is guilty of selling bad fish all the time from stubbies to misbars for more than regular fish. Absurd. Plus their fish haven not been looking good. Basement breeders sometimes breed better clowns than Ora does.
My best successes come from my rods onyx. I started with lots of misbars and getting better each batch. I feel we breeders learn as we go. The breeders I talk to alot are very helpful and want everyone to succeed. That wasn't always the case. When I first started hardly anyone shared their secrets. Or even helped. So I believe this led to many bad breeders. Now I know of alot of small time breeders who are raising beautiful fish. Brian who started this WK is one of them. I do agree about the jaw issue. We all share our ups and downs so we become better breeders.
I am thinking of getting a pair of WK and see how they grow up. Just like I bought a pair of **name removed because of legal threat from trademark holder** from Doni. I actually talked to her a few times and she has been very helpful. Now if I csn keep my rots alive more than a week I would be doing great !!


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Unread 05/08/2012, 09:56 PM   #74
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Now if I csn keep my rots alive more than a week I would be doing great !!
Talk to MarinaP about rotifers and about rotifer loading (or specialized rotifer diets). She will set you straight.


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Unread 05/09/2012, 09:32 AM   #75
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When I first read this thread, I thought it was crazy even considering paying that much for a little clown fish. I recently bought two new ordinary clowns for $30. I looked at buying a speical pair for $120, but thought that was too much. After continuing to follow up on the post, and what an interesting post it is, I remembered last month I spent $90 on 2 corals. Some Darth Maul zoas (4 polips) and Bubble Gum Monster chalice (1 inch with 3 eyes). I think I'm the crazy one now.

To each their own


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