Radical change contemplated: swap lit refugia for carbon dosing

[HighlandReefer]

My Sarcophyton and xenia are withering away in my system now. My kenya tree are hanging in there with little growth. My mushrooms are doing great. The sps are doing great.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's what worries me.

At the moment, my greatest focus in the tank is on the anemones (rose E. quad not shown, and the purple H.. crispa that is shown, for example). Maybe I'll post in the anemone forum to see if folks have kept such anemones long term in carbon dosed systems.

[HighlandReefer]

I have had a RBTA for some time now and it seems to be doing fine.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's good to hear.

Here's the anemone thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1558665

[Joe Pusdesris]

It is good to hear that someone else on RC still uses Caulerpa. I run caulerpa sertularioides and taxifolia, and I am much happier with these caulerpas than chaetomorpha. I will be following your progress.

[tonyespinoza]

hey randy - i am headed in the other direction (setting up a shallow fuge that's the same surface area as my display (60x40)).

i'm contemplating caulerpa -- in all these years have you had any issues with it going "sexual"? do you run the lights reverse to the display?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I run the lights 24/7. I've experimented with other cycles, but 24/7 has worked best in terms of apparent growth. I never had any of the normal form of the Caulerpa racemosa sporulate, but some small bits of the peltata variant of Caulerpa racemosa have sporulated at least a couple of times (which did not concern me).

[tonyespinoza]

Thanks Randy!

Anyone know where i could buy Caulerpa racemosa online?

Good luck on your potential change... I assume you don't expect to just "swap" the function and performance of the refugia with carbon dosing... you will inherently have a different ecosystem going and there's no doubt the live stock will shift accordingly. But maybe change is good....

[Biologist]

Hi Randy,

How did using lower levels of light in your refugium affect your water parameters? I see you said that the growth in your refugium followed the greater amount of light, but did nitrates, etc. rise in your tank with the lower light levels in the refugium?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since you would be relying on your protein skimmer for nutrient export,
How do you think this article and its conclusion would come into play with dosing carbon?

I don't know, but I might say simply that you are adding more organic carbon so can then remove more, and still effectively export a reasonable portion of the newly grown bacteria or their dead body parts. Somehow it works out, as folks have found.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a suggestion, how about Prodibio, the reason why I mentioned about this is because I don't think you can over dose Prodibio. Phase that in with the fuge. I believe it is a milder form of carbon dosing,and also without having to dose daily.
Just IMO. If any with different opinion we would like to hear.

Do you know what it is, and what is the basis for thinking you cannot overdose?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did using lower levels of light in your refugium affect your water parameters? I see you said that the growth in your refugium followed the greater amount of light, but did nitrates, etc. rise in your tank with the lower light levels in the refugium?

I do not know. I rarely measure nitrate or phosphate.

[mesocosm]

Originally posted by tonyespinoza
... Anyone know where i could buy Caulerpa racemosa online? ...

If you're in California, Caulerpa prolifera is the only species that you can legally possess.

California State Law: It is illegal to possess, transport, transfer, release alive, import, or sell Caulerpa taxifolia, Caulerpa sertularioides, Caulerpa mexicana, Caulerpa ashmeadii, Caulerpa scalpelliformis, Caulerpa racemosa (and all varieties of C. racemosa), Caulerpa cupressoides, Caulerpa verticillata, Caulerpa floridana (California Fish and Game Code 2300).

HTH

[tonyespinoza]

woah. yes - that helps a lot! no caulerpa for me!

[InsaneClownFish]

I've found that in my system Caulerpa racemosa is presumably more efficient, and over time it replaced all of the Chaeto.

Randy, be careful with Caulerpa racemosa. I see you mentioned you haven't had any issue with it sporulating. While it's true it may be more efficient than Cheato as a nutrient export, Cheato is a bit of a safer macro IMHO. I've had C. racemosa go asexual in my old system and it is not pretty.

I personally will never use it again. I'm not saying that the seasoned aquarist can't have success with it, but I just don't want to see people run out and buy it thinking it's a miracle algae and not take proper care; or realize the risks.

[tmz]

Randy,
Electriity is much less for the bare bottom chaetomrpha refugia I use. Both the chaetomorpha and gracileria in each 30inch by 19 inch bin grow quite well with 15 hours per day lighting via 2 spiral type flourescent spot lights from Home Depot. Each bulb costs about $7 and uses 18w producing and equivalent of 65 watts. So 36 watts(130 equivalent ) illuminates approximately 4 square feet(30 inches x 19 inches). The lighting has been very adequate for these macroalgaes requiring at least weekly harvesting. . In fact I have been able to keep red bubble tip anemones( E. quadricolor) for several weeks pending sale or trade in them as well.

[tmz]

Hi Randy,
Since you noted your concern for leathers and anemones in your system if you go for lower nutrients, I offer the following, anecdotally.
I have a mixed system containing leathers( sacrophyton, sinularia nepthia, lobophyton, capnella) xenia, a variety of zoanthidae, a colony of red bubble tip anemones ( E. Quadricolor) ,lps and sps in 6 integrated tanks and 5 bins serving as the sump, macroalgae refugia (chaetomorpha and gracileria only) and an unlit remote deep sand bed. I have almost no hair algae and just an occasional patch here and there of cyanobacteria. There are 40 fish in the system and I feed them well.
I do not presently dose carbon. I do use gfo, granualted activated carbon and 2 asm g4 x skimmers.

All of the fish and invertebrates are doing very well and have been for a few years . Several are over 7 years old which is when I started.

Phosphate hangs around .12ppm(hanna colrimeter) which seems adequate for the chaetomorpha with no apparent negative impact on acropora growth( I do keep alkalinity at 11.8dkh) nor nuisance algae.

My concern has been with nitrates at about 40 -50ppm ( Salifert/ API) even with the 2month old rdsb(which may not be doing very much). I think the nitrates may be making it hard on certain corals such as stylopora and seriatopora. I am in the process of adding adding a diy sulfur denitrator ,hoping it will get me to a point where I can keep the nitrates around 10ppm. I may also need more space dedicated to macroalgae.

Perhaps I will dose carbon again if that fails to get me where I want to be.I did dose about 4ml of vodka per day for several months a couple of years ago on a then 400 g or so system without discernable ill effect but became concerned about potential TOC buildup . I still have those concerns and some about the potential for culturing harmful bacteria. I was not structured in measuring the resluts of the dosing . It seemed bryopsis which I had at the time waned as did xenia but I may have been looking for nutrient reduction through rose colored glasses.

Good Luck

[puter]

My first inclination would be to see if I could get away with lighting the refugia more efficiently. If your refugia are shallow (or you can make them so) this 19W bulb puts out 500-600 PAR at about 3" below the bulb.



Mark

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks folks.

FWIW, I do use very efficient bulbs. Aside from the 175 w mh, the others are high efficiency fluorescent types. I'm not sure any are more efficient. I could try less actual light, however.

[adtravels]

Did it months ago Randy, only positive results for me.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

What sort of creatures do you keep in your tank?

[ksed]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Just a suggestion, how about Prodibio, the reason why I mentioned about this is because I don't think you can over dose Prodibio. Phase that in with the fuge. I believe it is a milder form of carbon dosing,and also without having to dose daily.
Just IMO. If any with different opinion we would like to hear.

Do you know what it is, and what is the basis for thinking you cannot overdose?

Randy

Sorry, thats just based on Manufactures info. I also heard from various reefers that Prodibio is a mild form of carbon dosing .I don't know if that true or not. Just a thought.

Kevin

[LunarDDS]

Randy,

How did you get to point where you had that much fuge in your system? I ran a 180 on what is basically 20 gal of grape for 5 years with no issues. I run 24/7 with a your basic 18" tank light. I have now added a skimmer since going full sps but I've kept some sps without the skimmer with only the fuge. I just wonder what is it about your system that you need that much fuge.

[mhaith]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
[B]
Maybe. I've found that carbon dosing begins to kill the macroalgae, so striking a middle ground position may be tricky.

I have found striking a middle ground with everything in this hobby of keeping a vibrant ecosystem is tricky (that is what makes it so challenging and well....fun)!

I light my fuge with two 19W 'Melev' 5100K bulbs and I have been carbon dosing 2-7ml (V, not VSV which = Cyano in my system) for over a year, yet the Chaeto in my fuge does well despite GAC, GFO and aggressive skimming.

My RBTA, softies, SPS and LPS all appear to be doing fine.

For me it is a balancing act of import and my desired export methods. Maybe try dosing less carbon or feeding a bit more to maintain the Caulerpa



HTH

[Paul_PSU]

Originally posted by ksed
Randy

Sorry, thats just based on Manufactures info. I also heard from various reefers that Prodibio is a mild form of carbon dosing .I don't know if that true or not. Just a thought.

Kevin

My understanding was that portion of it are. The Biodigest is the bacteria and I think it is Bioptim that is the carbon source. That is the reason why I dose Biodigest and vodka.