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Old 10/29/2015, 06:09 PM   #2101
Cyberdude
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Pods are in full
Force and my cheato is growing like mad now. Two inches think and full of pods. They survived the dosing. Although I didn't see any during the process.


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Old 10/29/2015, 06:10 PM   #2102
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Before dosing and during the full blown outbreak my cheato looked dead and I saw no pods. Just dose. Be patient. You'll be back in no time.


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Old 10/29/2015, 07:29 PM   #2103
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If anybody hadn't read this yet. Just something I haven't seen before.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2482006

On a different note, changed my rock work today. What do those kitty litter clumps mean, especially since I have Dino's?? Dead sand right?


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Old 10/30/2015, 12:57 AM   #2104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfee View Post
If anybody hadn't read this yet. Just something I haven't seen before.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2482006

On a different note, changed my rock work today. What do those kitty litter clumps mean, especially since I have Dino's?? Dead sand right?
Which post? Magnesium and high pH didn't work for me. Not sure why magnesium anyway, isn't it the additive in tech=m brand rather than the actual magnesium? I'm dosing potassium nitrate, 5ppm added every 4 days and it is helping a LOT.

I have sand clumps too, but not all the time, and not always in the same area. They don't *seem* to be correlated with bad dinos. I think it's overenthusiastic bacteria. My alk and Ca levels certainly aren't super high. I inherited a conch, and a big ?nassarius snail and they have broken the clumps up except right near the rock.

hth
ivy


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Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 10/31/2015, 04:08 AM   #2105
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I've let the GFO and carbon fade out over 3 months or so with not replacing the media.
I did not see this have any effects on the livestock or the dinos.
The tank has been running without them for a week now.

I'll replace them soon.


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Old 10/31/2015, 04:14 AM   #2106
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For a week I've been illuminating the dinos on the sandbed, by placing a 80W tube next to them at the front glass.
There seems to have been a very slight increase in dinos there, but the Cyanobacteria was very happy with this.

The sandbed has been covered with a dense mat of cyano and dinos for quite a while.
The mat parts that get ripped off by the current stay dino free for a while.
Those that remember the square test will see the similarities.


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Old 10/31/2015, 07:46 AM   #2107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I'll make a few claims here - and see what you think

"Dinos explode when the majority of rock in the system is artificial or decimated through bleaching/baking, etc..."

Another claim:

"The lack of biofauna creates an environment like the ancient oceans, where dinos were prevalent without predators or sufficient competitors"

Final claim:

"Systems with stablished bio rich rocks are not susceptible unless chemicals are used to kill the biofauna on the rocks (like algae or bacteria killers) or starve them."

...
I agree 100% with these statements.
I am presently helping a fellow reefer battle a dino problem, his is a new system that he started with dead rock and 2 inches of caribsea seaflor special that he seeded with some live rock , he let the tank cycle for a few months then added some fish and a cuc. He thought he had a persistent diatom bloom and asked what I thought, I put a sample under the microscope and saw Ostreopsis Ovata. He has no coraline algae to speak of, no green micro algae on the glass and half of his sand bed has turned solid. We started slowly removing the sand bed and began the dirty method, his po4 and no3 are not detectable, began dosing phyto and pods and running 10uM filter socks, stopped skimming and water changes and only running 1/4 the carbon.
It's been about 3 weeks now and things are looking much better.

My problem started after decimating my micro fauna with algae x.

I am now 22 weeks dino free, back to my 200uM filter socks, doing regular weekly water changes, still dosing 400ml phyto daily and culturing and adding pods regularly. Po4 is .04 and no3 is 6ppm, coraline algae is growing strong, tank and inhabitants look great.
I had Ostreopsis Ovata, battled for a year, dirty method is what worked for me.


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Old 10/31/2015, 09:48 AM   #2108
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Thanks guys. I think this is important for people who constantly tear down their tanks to kill dinos. Bleaching the rocks and adding new dead sand is a guarantee that dinos proliferate.

It also explains why established systems can accept coral from an 'infected' tank with no ill effects.

I think the dirty or clean method just bridges between the sterile conditions of a biologically immature tank to a robust biofauna tank. Both require the addition of diverse life, food availability to give them footholds and an export mechanism for dinos. The clean is just heavier on the export than the dirty.

For those starting with sterile tanks in the future, I wonder what mitigating methods they should consider. Right now, aside from an abundance of real diverse live rock, I think an ATS is the most natural and easy method to cultivate algae and pods without risking cyano outbreaks or other bacterial runaway mechanisms.

Another may be a temporary old fashioned wet/dry filter to give good bacteria a strong foothold? I used a chaeto refugium but cyano is a concern without insanely fast and turbulent flow.

Who's tried some of these and found them to be dino-breakers?


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Old 10/31/2015, 10:23 AM   #2109
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Does dino-x have any effect on copepods? Snails? Hermit crabs? Blood shrimp?


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Old 10/31/2015, 10:32 AM   #2110
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I just bought two pieces of liverock, light, and chaeto a few days ago. Fingers crossed. All I have right now is a slight dusting that develops over the coarse of a week.


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Old 10/31/2015, 12:35 PM   #2111
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Does dino-x have any effect on copepods? Snails? Hermit crabs? Blood shrimp?
When I used fm ultra algae x my snails, crabs, and urchin seemed fine. not sure about pods though.


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Old 10/31/2015, 12:40 PM   #2112
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I'm revamping my system and will be using a sodium percarbonate bath and then acid bath on most of my rocks. I had a crash back in June when I was out of town (nightmare scenario), and it's just going to be easier this way, almost threw in the towel. I'm also ditching the sand and starting out with "dead," new sand. This is not because of dinos, but it will be interesting seeing what happens in the next six months. I plan on continuously adding cultured, benthic pods into the system as I believe it's a win-win way to combat nuisances like dinos and cyanobacteria.


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Old 10/31/2015, 01:26 PM   #2113
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Does dino-x have any effect on copepods? Snails? Hermit crabs? Blood shrimp?
FM algaeX is what destroyed my micro fauna and brought on my dinos, shrimps, crabs and snails were not affected, however, the dinos killed all the crabs and snails.
AlgaeX was re branded as DinoX but I think the formula is the same.


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Old 10/31/2015, 03:07 PM   #2114
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Hi, Dinoflagellates found their way to my 13 gallon tank (two years old) again . Last time (11 month ago) it was a spherical type of dino, the movement was like a rolling ball, with a clearly visible flagellum and an "equator" (sorry couldn't identify it any further). Lots of siphoning through a <50m filter sock as well as two times 3.5 days lights off periods helped to exterminate them.

Now ten month later I have a new outbreak, but this time the dino type is different. With a microscope (magnification 400x) and the help of algaeid.com I identified them as Ostreopsis sp.. Thanks to this thread it is clear to say: lights off periods will have no effect on this little buggers this time . The tank is home to soft corals, easy to keep gorgonians (pinnigorgia sp.) and anemones (like RBTA, Condylactis gigantea and Phymantus buitendijki sand anemone).

To the cause of the outbreak: I have removed 6 handsfull of chaetomorpha linum algae as well as used Aqua Reef Bond to improve stability of my stacked liverocks (the live rock tower was a bit too shaky ). I also dosed activated carbon and used a second skimmer since the underwater glueing made the water milky (the reef Bond is safe to use in a reeftank). All this happened last week, guess it was a bit too much for the reef tank ecosystem . Watercycle is 10% of the tank volume a week. I change the used seasalt brand every week.

Yesterday i discovered the dinoflagellate strings on the tips of the gorgonians and on the front glass. Since the inhabitants of the tank can tolerate heavy feeding, I will try the "dirty water method" with feeding unwashed frozen food and phytoplankton to encourage competitive organisms.

But I've some questions about fighting Ostreopsis sp.: Should I continue dosing activated carbon (small or huge amounts) and using the skimmer? Should I use both skimmers or only one and how about the skimmer settings? Should it be skimming wet or dry? What about the length of the light period? At the moment it is one hour blue light, 10 hours blue/whitemix and 1 hour blue light. Should I shortening the light cycle? I also have calciumhydroxide to make some limewater is this of any use fighting Ostreopsis sp.? Should I use Kordon Ich-attack (if I can get this stuff here in Germany).
If I want to siphon the dino string what size of filtering socks do I need 50m or smaller? Watercycling is prohibited for the duration of the outbreak right?

Hope anyone can answer some of my questions that would be great. Thanks guys!

Sincerely, Dennis



Last edited by Kazalla; 10/31/2015 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 10/31/2015, 03:38 PM   #2115
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Turn off the skimmer and stop water changes, use a small amount of carbon, photo period doesn't really matter so I wouldn't change it.
Ostreopsis is about 40uM so I would use a 10 to 25uM sock.
Watch for hair algae to start then start skimming dry.


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Old 10/31/2015, 03:46 PM   #2116
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Thank you for your quick answer, I really appreciate it!

Sincerely Dennis

EDIT: I've noticed (not sure about it) that dinos have an effect on the growth of other algae. The growthrate of chaetomorpha, sea lettuce and other algae (like the ones on the glass of the tank) are stagnating for a week. Two weeks ago I'd to clean the glass every three days because of the green algae but for one week now there is no growth.

EDIT 2:Oh and of course all snails have disappeared, probably killed by dino toxins released into the water, poor guys ...



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Old 10/31/2015, 04:00 PM   #2117
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Thank you for your quick answer, I really appreciate it!

Sincerely Dennis

EDIT: I've noticed (not sure about it) that dinos have an effect on the growth of other algae. The growthrate of chaetomorpha, sea lettuce and other algae (like the ones on the glass of the tank) are stagnating for a week. Two weeks ago I'd to clean the glass every three days because of the green algae but for one week now there is no growth.
Very true! Cyano and dinos will suck the nutrients and starve the chaeto.


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Old 10/31/2015, 04:43 PM   #2118
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Is also a mixed infection of different types of dinos in one reeftank possible? Under the microscope some dinos look different than the typical shape of an Ostreopsis (not egg-shaped more oval). Maybe a mix of different life stages (cysts or something like that). Also not all dinos are moving, I interpreted this wrong and thought they were already dead. That was a mistake . At the moment the dino population is increasing, hope the unwashed frozen artemia I have added to the tank will help to tackle them. Good times for bristle worms, brittle stars, pods and all the other little critters in the tank .

Sincerely, Dennis



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Old 10/31/2015, 04:54 PM   #2119
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A mixed population is very possible. Are they all dinoflagellates?


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Old 10/31/2015, 05:01 PM   #2120
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A mixed population is very possible. Are they all dinoflagellates?
I think so, the oval shaped ones look like they have an opening on one side and water is pressed out, works like a jet nozzle (hard to describe, sorry ^^). The opening is small and if you look from a different angle on this fellow, it appears flattened. Colour is typical dino brown with a bit of green. No visible flagellum. I also see nematodes/roundworms between the dinos.

Sincerely Dennis

Edit: I looked on algaeid.com for an identification it looks like the Prorocentrum sp. one but the nucleus(?) in the centre of the organism is missing(or it is not clearly visible).



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Old 10/31/2015, 10:01 PM   #2121
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Is also a mixed infection of different types of dinos in one reeftank possible? Under the microscope some dinos look different than the typical shape of an Ostreopsis (not egg-shaped more oval). Maybe a mix of different life stages (cysts or something like that).

Sincerely, Dennis
I think it's possible! I have Ostreopsis- that drunken whirling is distinctive- and something smaller and different-behaving that I think is in genus Prorocentrum. Seeing the whitish circle isn't really diagnostic, that's a structure in the chloroplasts. Of course I wouldn't bet money on my ability to id even to family; for the most part I'm good if I can determine whether it's a dino or a diatom.


Not a microbiologist, blah blah disclaimer, could be space aliens..
Ivy


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Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15

Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 10/31/2015 at 10:56 PM. Reason: i can't spell
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Old 10/31/2015, 10:14 PM   #2122
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Without a flagellum, is it dino?


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Old 10/31/2015, 10:54 PM   #2123
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Without a flagellum, is it dino?
Not biologically, BUT I have never managed to see the flagellum under a microscope. I don't see them in Pants' videos either. Can you see them? You must have good eyes.

Round diatoms have a sort of, ribby structure? They have a nice glassy outline and sort of float serenely. Dinos do loop de loops, spin like one foot got nailed to the floor, or spin on their axis and go rocketing around.
Ivy


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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 10/31/2015, 11:50 PM   #2124
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Does dino-x have any effect on copepods? Snails? Hermit crabs? Blood shrimp?

Nope. Not at all. If they eat the dinos it's a different story


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Old 10/31/2015, 11:50 PM   #2125
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To have a nice view on such filigree bodyparts of a dino like the flagellum, you need a microscope that is able to do dark field microscopy. Also a 400x magnification and an option to control the brightness of the microscope as well as killing the dino with distilled water (because they can move the flagellum so fast you can barely spot it) is usefull to see it. Not all dinos have a distinctive grown flagellum.

Sincerely Dennis


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