Avast Dosing Container issues.

[luisagos]

I just noticed, I have two dosing containers with micro cracks, these are real cracks inside the container. I have six of these, but only 2 are showing these cracks.

[luisagos]

Just in case your wondering, these was never dropped.

Seems to me a defect on the tube itself, the cracks are just spreading.
Please let me know what to do.

[Avast Marine]

Hi Luis,

This is chemical stress crazing usually caused by cleaning with a solvent (alcohol, ammonia, solvents etc). If you would like to provide more details you can send an email to support@avastmarine.com

[luisagos]

I have never cleaned those containers with anything then using the standard dosing chemicals.

Email Sent.

[Avast Marine]

I am going to cross reference threads here. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post23573800

Please do not use the Red Sea No3 Po4 -x product in or really even around any acrylic equipment. There are several very strong solvents in this product that will cause crazing in the acrylic. Acetic acid is actually a chemical we put in the formulation of acrylic cement/solvent, and methanol and ethanol are extremely harsh solvents themselves. Not only would I not put this stuff in an acrylic container, there is zero chance I would put it in my reef tank.

[luisagos]

Thanks, lesson learn. Please update your website so others will not do the same thing and lose 2 super nice dosing containers like I did.


FYI, carbon sourcing is not a bad thing, and its very common now.

You may want to read up on it, before making a comment on it.

[Avast Marine]

In all fairness our website only mentions using these for calcium and alkalinity solutions. I am sorry about your dosing barrels and understand your frustration. I am very familiar with carbon dosing but there are clearly safer ways to go about it.

[blackthunda77]

Was the NOPOX used 100% full strength in those containers as dosing containers? Curious because i have a 200 gal glass tank with an 80 gal acrylic sump, and was considering using this stuff. I really cant see there being a problem manually dosing this and it causing an issue with my sump when its diluted as per the instructions. I mean its like 10ml or NOPOX in almost 300 gals of water.

[tmz]

I am very familiar with carbon dosing but there are clearly safer ways to go about it.

How so? Clearly what?
Ethanol and acetic acid( aka vodka and vinegar) are products of acetogenisis which occurs as carbohydrates degrade to acetate. I've been dosing them for over 5.5 years as have many others.. Most tanks likely have ethanoic acid and ethanol in them from normal biological degradation processes of sugars and other organics. No one is dosing them in concentrations needed for use as solvents. There are plenty of acrylics in my system and none are the worse for it.

[Avast Marine]

Originally Posted by tmz

I am very familiar with carbon dosing but there are clearly safer ways to go about it.

How so? Clearly what?
Ethanol and acetic acid( aka vodka and vinegar) are products of acetogenisis which occurs as carbohydrates degrade to acetate. I've been dosing them for over 5.5 years as have many others.. Most tanks likely have ethanoic acid and ethanol in them from normal biological degradation processes of sugars and other organics. No one is dosing them in concentrations needed for use as solvents. There are plenty of acrylics in my system and none are the worse for it.

Acetic acid is not simply vinegar, the concentrations needed in order to stress craze acrylic are consistent with glacial acetic acid which is what we use here in the shop as an additive to our acrylic solvents to slow down the chemical bonding when the ambient temperature is very hot. It is in itself a very strong solvent. Vinegar would not stress craze acrylic and I would feel comfortable dosing it.

Ethanol as Vodka I would have no problem with dosing, again though straight 80 proof vodka is not going to craze acrylic.

Isopropyl was mentioned as well. It would make 100% sense to me if they were indeed using isopropyl alcohol, when combined with the glacial acetic acid it would make Isopropyl Acetate. This is a VERY strong solvent used to chemically weld plastics among other things. Not to mention the isopropyl is POISON! The example shown here is consistent with exposure to isopropyl (so much so that I identified it without knowing any details about what he was dosing or cleaning with).

You are talking about dosing solvents that are precursors to acetone and other very harsh solvents.

I understand people are willing to put small controlled doses of this stuff in their tanks and I think it is absurd to be honest. Would you drink a shot the no3 po4 -x out of the bottle? If not, then I wouldn't personally put it in my tank. Vodka? Sure. Vinegar? Sure. Biopellet effluent? Sure. Glycerin? Sure. Mystery bottle that melts plastic? Nope.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Avast Marine

Isopropyl was mentioned as well. It would make 100% sense to me if they were indeed using isopropyl alcohol, when combined with the glacial acetic acid it would make Isopropyl Acetate. This is a VERY strong solvent used to chemically weld plastics among other things. Not to mention the isopropyl is POISON! The example shown here is consistent with exposure to isopropyl (so much so that I identified it without knowing any details about what he was dosing or cleaning with).

Just to clear it up (my lab took the NMR and determined what NOPOX is), here are the concentrations:

20% ethanol, 3% acetic acid, 2.1% methanol, 1.2% isopropanol.

The methanol and isopropanol are from the ethanol source that they use -- they are put into ethanol to denature it (and thus it's not taxed as drinking alcohol).

[tmz]

I understand what vinegar is and what galacial acetic acid is. I personally prefer not to drink NOPOX or viengar or vodka and dose vinegar and vodka ;not NOPOx which has a similar mix of ethanol and acetic acid to my dosing regime. Many folks I know do use NOPOX in reef tanks with no ill effect It's dilute,ie 1 part vinegar to 1part 30% ethanol:

This thread has details:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...t=nopox&page=2

The small amounts of methanol and isopropanol do not seem to have any ill effects per reports from those who have used use it for a year or so . The dosing regime uses only small doses of a dilute mixture for relatively large water volumes.

[Avast Marine]

Originally Posted by tmz

I understand what vinegar is and what galacial acetic acid is. I personally prefer not to drink NOPOX or viengar or vodka and dose vinegar and vodka ;not NOPOx which has a similar mix of ethanol and acetic acid to my dosing regime. Many folks I know do use NOPOX in reef tanks with no ill effect It's dilute,ie 1 part vinegar to 1part 30% ethanol:

This thread has details:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...t=nopox&page=2

The small amounts of methanol and isopropanol do not seem to have any ill effects per reports from those who have used use it for a year or so . The dosing regime uses only small doses of a dilute mixture for relatively large water volumes.

I'm kind of lost as to what your angle is here, but let's just agree not to put no3 po4 -x in a acrylic container for storage and not drink it either. We don't sell any chemicals so we have no dog in that fight, just letting you know that I am not putting poison in my tank in any concentration, regardless of anecdotal success stories on RC. So yeah, I stand by my original statement that there are clearly safer ways to dose carbon and those are the ones that don't include isopropyl.

We offered to replace the containers at a 50% discount to the customer even though they are past the warranty period and the cause of failure was clearly not a manufacture defect. Lets let this thread die and take any further chemical discussion back over to the chemistry forum.

Here is the official word from Red Sea:

The NoPox is primarily a blend of Ethanol acting as a carbon source for the aquarium and will damage some plastics and acrylics. It is suggested to draw the product directly from the bottle when using a dosing unit.

So if you want to dose this product, please follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

[tmz]

I don't have an angle. Don't know if it damages acrylic or not and at what concentration that's clearly your bailiwick. I wouldn't store it that way. My initial take on your post was that ethanol and acetic acid were unsafe which is what prompted my reply.

Beyond that it's worth noting , in countires other than ours using ethanol via vodka is cost prohibitive. Folks commonlly use products that include extremely small amounts of methanol or isoproanol impruities which are much more reasonably priced. For example .1.75 liters of 80 poof vodka here costs about $14; in other places it can be $100 or more .

Personally, I don't use NOPOX ; I started with vodka and vinegar long before NOPOX was available and see no reason to change. I just don't think the tiny amount of isoproponal is a major worry. Not sure if it's avoidable even in vodka.
Wikipedia : “In the alcoholic beverages industry, congeners are substances produced during fermentation. They include small amounts of chemicals such as acetone, acetaldehyde, tannins and other higher alcohols (e.g. propanol and glycols).

[Avast Marine]

I guess I am just a granola eating reefer who thinks avoiding toxins in general is the safest way to treat my reef tank like a temple.

I was watching a documentary the other night about dolphins on BBC. They were intentionally playing with puffer fish to get them to release the deadly toxins. After released they swam through it to get high. So you have an toxin that is extremely diluted in the great big ocean and can still see measurable effects on an animal.

You have clearly done a risk assessment for what your putting in your tank, just don't pretend there is no risk.

[b7fig]

Since I started dosing NoPox several months ago, my tank has never been better and have read many threads on carbon dosing, including NoPox(alot from TMZ) with very positive results. That being said, I learned very quickly not to put the NOPOX in an acrylic container and use a glass storage container. And since this is a Avast Marine thread, your K1 Kalk stirrer rocks!

[tmz]

Dan,

I don't think there is a significant risk with NOPOX in terms of toxicity. I'm not pretending anything. Given a choice , I use vodka and vinegar but then they might not be completely pure either. Salt mixes, and or other supplements,or various filtration media,overdoses present significant risks in my opinion. I don't think the impurities are poisonous to life in aquariums at the concentrations for dosing.

I don't like granola and don't drink vodka either.

[luisagos]

You can take anything out of context, and fit what ever meaning you want.
The basic of chemistry never change, especially when you get into the basic foundation of life. Some things are toxic in large level, but in the right quantities is how life is created.
There is risk in anything you do in this hobby, especially when you have to deal with equipment malfunction.

Ammonium chloride is used as a flux in preparing metals to be tin coated, galvanized or soldered. It works as a flux by cleaning the surface of workpieces by reacting with the metal oxides at the surface to form a volatile metal chloride. For this purpose, it is sold in blocks at hardware stores for use in cleaning the tip of a soldering iron and can also be included in solder as flux.

Would you put Ammonium Chloride, in your tank?

If you start a new tank, with no life, and put 1 drop of Ammonium Chloride per gallon.

200 gallon system would need 200 drops of Ammonium Chloride.

In 6-8 weeks you will have life.

Do you want to drink this stuff?
Saying stuff like this to make point is not a proper gauge to put what in a tank.



Debates like this is fun, well losing two dosing containers did suck, lol.

[Avast Marine]

I never said don't put it in your tank, I said I wont put it in my tank. I said there are clearly safer ways to carbon dose than using a product that will melt plastic if you choose to carbon dose. I also said that if you want to use it then to please follow the manufactures directions (they have cautions all over their directions too lol). So all in all, just be cautious with this stuff. Despite the phrase "stress fracture" what is really happening is the solvent is softening the plastic and letting the stress that is already present in acrylic to be released, so yes it is melting plastic.

Since this has turned into more of a philosophy discussion...

The anecdotal evidence you guys are providing here to justify using these things in your reef are not going to convince me to use them to balance my ecosystem. I am picky about what food I feed (po4) meticulous about maintaining my RODI system (po4) skim with proper equipment (no3) and most importantly change a lot of water with an automatic water change system (po4 no3). Not sure what -x is but the tank is doing alright +x and so are a lot of others out there. Carbon dosing has always presented several risk along with several benefits regardless of the product you use, avoiding the need to dose carbon at all is obviously the safest path but carries the cost of a little more work.

Everyone posting here has been reefkeeping a while and are educated enough to perform their own risk/benefit analysis and make an informed choice, but please remember that there are many folks out there who are new and just casually reading this stuff who are not so lucky to have the same amount of experience so I believe caution is in order.

[1troy7]

Just out of curiosity, Are these made with cell cast acrylic, or extruded?