why does my water shock me?

[bstreep]

The amperage of the voltage being put out by the submerged motors is very small. But, if you have enough of them (like in my 215), you can feel it. In any case, it's NOT a short or a voltage leak, so how would it trip a GFCI???

For those not understanding, take your multimeter and turn it on a range that will read 1-10v. Put the negative end into the ground of a plug, the other in your tank. If you have powerheads or pumps in your tank, you'll show voltage. As I recall, it picks up an impact from my external pumps.

[bureau13]

What am I missing? If its current flowing to the ground why WOULDN'T it trip the GFCI? I don't think they're supposed to do this.

jds

[Percula9]

There probably is some voltage in the water, but it shouldn't shock you. This means one of your power heads is shorting. Start pulling the plug on each powerhead and put your hands in the water until you discover which one it is.

[pleaselaunchme]

bureau13- A GFCI works by measuring the current difference between the hot and neutral. If your equipment is using 1.4 amps off the hot, and the neutral is only getting 1.3 amps returned, it will trip as it is detecting a fault. So, if the pump is shorting, it will trip. If it is induced (stray) current going down a ground probe, it will not see it. Induced currents such as this are not actually coming directly from the power lines. In these types of circuits, it will drain the current off to the earth ground, not the neutral, and thus not be seen.

Percula- That is a really bad idea to suggest that. You could get someone killed that way. If in fact his pump is shorting, and more water is penetrating into the electrical, then conceivably over time the amount of leaked current could increase. Sticking an arm in the tank and standing and acting as the ground is a good way to put current across your heart. AC current only needs somewhere around 50-50mA to kill you, DC somewhat higher. Use a multimeter as described earlier in this thread to search for the current source.



Also, the action of water moving will actually cause a voltage to build up and be measurable, albeit a low voltage. This is induced/stray voltage.

[smcdonn]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Mike,

Nothing confusing.

Equipment should not leak voltage/current. Adding a ground probe helps to move that current away from the tank. Adding the GFCI keep the current from flowing and instead trip when a leak is detected.

Rule of thumb:

DON'T RUN A GROUND PROBE WITHOUT A GFCI.

YOU MAY RUN A GFCI WITHOUT A GROUND PROBE. Doing so will offer a fair amount of protection but does not cover all fault scenarios.

Bean

Bean, I know you are very reputable around here but I have to question when you state, "adding a ground probe helps to move that current away from the tank." This is a very false statement. Adding a ground probe only completes the circuit. Without it all you have is a potential in the tank. Other than that I agree that a ground probe needs to be used with a GFCI, but I feel that a much safer route is no ground probe at all. The reason is so you don't have a false trip. With a ground probe, anything that leaks at all will trip the circuit due to an amperage leak. But if you just use a GFCI, if something is leaking voltage into the tank it won't trigger the GFCI, until say you stick your hand in there tripping the circuit. Although this seems very unsafe to have yourself trip the circuit, it is very unlikely that it will be harmful and you don't run the risk of loosing thousands of dollars worth of livestock due to a small voltage leak. Once again this is just something to consider. Bean, you have an amazing reputation around here and im not trying to contradict you, just trying to state a point here. Please critique me on any of this if you feel I am wrong. Till next time. Cheers.

[HBtank]

Originally posted by Percula9
There probably is some voltage in the water, but it shouldn't shock you. This means one of your power heads is shorting. Start pulling the plug on each powerhead and put your hands in the water until you discover which one it is.

Not good advice.

[Percula9]

I apologise that was bad advice. You should most definitely use a multimeter. I wouldn't want anybody to get hurt. I've been shocked by shorted pumps, thank god I was never hurt. I don't know how many times this person has stuck his hand in and has been shocked, thank god no injury has accured. Again my humblist apologies.

[xtm]

Originally posted by bstreep
This was enough to add around 12v to my system - and enough to get a tingle.

12v aint gonna 'tickle' you

A grounding probe - along with GFCIs - "fixed" the problem. I say "fixed", because the voltage is still there!

If the voltage is still there, how exactly did the grounding probe and the GFCI "fixed" the problem?

[LooklikeME]

I had a run in with my GFI last month.I brought a pump for my topoff water 55 gallon garbage can .I put the pump in there and dumped some salt to mix.So i decided to move the pump a tad........WHAM ZZZZZ my basement went dark and I feel to my knees. spilling my fresh made Ro/di water all over me.Me being in a hurry I grab what at the time I thought was a submersible pump...It wasn't.I thank God that we have GFI's.

[Siberia]

Originally posted by koraltek
i think you need to stick your head in the water just to make sure your really getting shocked,....
you gotta know for sure

Hey! Statements like that belong into the lounge!

[davenia7]

Please be careful with this... and replace the pump.
If in doubt, play it safe.
We're dealing with ELECTRICITY AND WATER here people, not a good combination in general.
I have been flung across the room by a broken heater... it really hurt.
Please don't risk it.
I could have died from my stupidity.

[Serioussnaps]

Originally posted by davenia7
Please be careful with this... and replace the pump.
If in doubt, play it safe.
We're dealing with ELECTRICITY AND WATER here people, not a good combination in general.
I have been flung across the room by a broken heater... it really hurt.
Please don't risk it.
I could have died from my stupidity.

Me too.....fuge light falls into sump under the cabinet. I dont know this and proceed to stick my hand in display. Wont happen again.

[rorchilles]

grounding probe !!!!

[rj ripetide]

GFCI DO FAIL!!!! ( not saying not to use them only that they can fail )

It is best to use all precaustions.

Make sure you are not grounding yourself ( touching metal pipes or standing on basement concrete floor, wet floor, barefooted,etc...you get the idea....) The electrical current must have a path to travel, MAKE SURE you are not that path!!!

Rj

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by smcdonn
Bean, I know you are very reputable around here but I have to question when you state, "adding a ground probe helps to move that current away from the tank."

The statement was not a literal. The statement was an attempt to illustrate the basic concept that the ground probe allows current to take the path of least resistance, moving away from your body instead of through it. Yes, I am aware that you don't "move" current, it flows I should have been more clear in my explanation.

This is a very false statement. Adding a ground probe only completes the circuit. Without it all you have is a potential in the tank.

Yup... and we want to ensure that we are NOT the conductor that completes that circuit

Other than that I agree that a ground probe needs to be used with a GFCI, but I feel that a much safer route is no ground probe at all. The reason is so you don't have a false trip. With a ground probe, anything that leaks at all will trip the circuit due to an amperage leak.

That is why I recomend putting each critical device on its own GFCI.

But if you just use a GFCI, if something is leaking voltage into the tank it won't trigger the GFCI, until say you stick your hand in there tripping the circuit. Although this seems very unsafe to have yourself trip the circuit, it is very unlikely that it will be harmful and you don't run the risk of loosing thousands of dollars worth of livestock due to a small voltage leak.

Using a seperate GFCI on each piece of equipment will help to mitigate much of the risk to the livestock. Doing so will also ensure a very high level of safety for the humans that interact with the tank. This is one of those situations where personal preferences or observed risk will vary between informed people.

Once again this is just something to consider. Bean, you have an amazing reputation around here and im not trying to contradict you, just trying to state a point here. Please critique me on any of this if you feel I am wrong. Till next time. Cheers.

Thanks for the compliments... I am sure there a quite a few that don't feel that way at all

There is not much to crituque. You understand what is at stake and the consequences or risks involved with the different topologies. I may weigh those risks differently, but that does not mean that I am right.

[jc1of2]

Titanium grounding probes are cheap and you never realize you need one until your fish and coral start to die.

[tim2]

The tingling you are feeling is induced Voltage not current. You can get this even from your lighting system over your tank water( you can read this stray voltage with a volt meter) The ground probe will carry this stray voltage to ground and away from your tank and animals as well as keep you from getting that tinggle. The Gfci measures the current leaving on hot and compares it to what is coming back on the neuteral.A few milliAMPs of current imballance not voltage is what causes it to trip out. If you have a peice of equipment short out or a light fixture were to fall in the tank etc... then the gfci would trip and the ground probe would also carry voltage and current to ground. The main thing to know is that GFCI's and ground probes are good and not costley investments and are most certainly worth your saftey and the well being of your animals. Not looking to sir up anything but just trying to help.

[bstreep]

tim2, you are exactly right.

xtm, let me know when you want to hold on to the end of my jumper cables and ground yourself out. Hopefully, you'll be leaning on my car with your zipper touching the fender.

Why is it that people CONTINUE to think VOLTAGE is the key issue? It's AMPERAGE. Get shot by a Taser, and you take 150-200,000 VOLTS. But it won't kill you.

Listen up: IF you put enough mag (not brand name, drive types) submersible pumps into your tank, you WILL feel a tingle from it, unless you have a grounding probe. As tim noted, even a VHO will give you a bit of a zap.

[vegaskid11]

Alot of good info here. A couple of months ago I had my new fish room wired up and I had them put in 6 circuits each on there own GFCI. (Thanks Bean) Also, my electrician said that you can use a single GFCI to monitor all outlets on that particular circuit. So while I have 40 outlets, I only have 6 GFCI. Also, lowes has a 3 pack of GFCI w/ the indicater light for 16 dollars.

VK

[Roamer]

Originally posted by NO1B4ME202
It depends how old your house is.

These are two different things. The grounding PROBE is simply a titanium probe that is connected to the HOUSE ground system. It's whole point to prevent the buildup of any electrical potential in the water AND to provide a good, solid ground so if you do have some insulation failures, they will cause the GFI to trip BEFORE you stick your hand in the tank.

House are equipped with a grounding ROD. This is a six to ten foot long copper shaft that is driven into the ground. The whole point of this system is to tie the home to the earth's local potential and provide a safe "ground" reference for the neutral (aka: return path) on the home's power panel.

It's a bit complex to explain, but the (very) simple explanation is that we need the power to alternate from about +180 Volts, down through zero volts (aka: ground) and then down to -180 Volts before it starts back up. The difference between the voltage on the hot lead and the neutral lead is what powers our electrical devices.

The problem comes in if you don't ground neutral. It is just as easy for the transformer to be swinging from (say) +1360 Volts down to +1000 Volts. You equipment would never know the difference and would run perfectly. But between the Hot and an actual earth ground, you would have 1360 Volts potential! You would have a 1180 Volt potential between neutral and ground!

Needless to say, most people don't want to get hit with a thousand volt shot! The ground pulls neutral down to, well, ground and prevents this potential from ever building up.

If you want a good visual display of all this, find one of the TV shows that show the guys working on high voltage transmission lines (hundreds of thousands of volts!) via a helicopter. When the helicopter pulls up to the (still hot) line, there will be an arc over several feet from the line to the ground probe the worker is holding out to it. The electrons pore into the helicopter and bring it and everyone inside it up to that 350,000 volt (or so) "ground" potential.

Then the workers can get right out ON the hot line and work on it all they want while it (and them) are still hot.

Remember, potential (number of electrons in one place) doesn't do anything. It is only when you have a current (electrons moving) that "exciting" things happen. You probably aren't even aware that you had a 3000 volt potential on you until you touched the door handle on your car and got shocked!

Oh, and I forgot to mention, ALL houses with electricity have a ground rod. Most older houses do NOT have grounded outlets. The ground on the outlet is simply a safety device to provide a path for the current to get to ground if an insulator fails inside an electrical tool of some kind. This trips the breaker instead of waiting for YOU to provide that ground and trip the breaker by all that current going through YOU. Tools that are "double insulated" have multiple methods of insulating the current from the body of the tool, so they do not need, nor do they have a grounded plug on them.

[rick s]

Originally posted by MikePowell
it was running fine for a few days but why all of a sudden?

Mike,
If the pump is fairly new, return it to the store for a free replacement.