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Unread 05/18/2010, 02:27 PM   #76
Chelle's Ocean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolletteiii View Post
I sent the Florida FWC an email about this. Something seems fishy here - no pun intended. I was unable to find info on the FWC website related to non-commercial entities and the selling of marine ornamental fish. Will post the reply if this thread is still open when I receive it.
Not sure why something this important would be closed...but please do feel free to send me a message of your findings. Very interested.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 05:12 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolletteiii View Post
I sent the Florida FWC an email about this. Something seems fishy here - no pun intended. I was unable to find info on the FWC website related to non-commercial entities and the selling of marine ornamental fish. Will post the reply if this thread is still open when I receive it.
That's because there is no such provision. Under Florida State Statute, if you are selling, bartering, or exchanging saltwater products, no matter the quantity, you need a commercial license. In order to collect and sell marine life in the state, you would need a Saltwater Products License (SPL) with both restricted species and marine life endorsements (FSS 379.361(2)(a)). This license only allows you to sell to wholesale dealers. In order to sell products to the general public, you need a Saltwater Products Retail license. If you are growing/raising the products you need a retail and/or aquaculture license.

There are no exemptions for small scale operations or hobbyists. Technically, anyone selling marine life needs to have a license. The FWC occassionally sends their officers out to check retail licenses at local bait shops, that sell live shrimp, or frozen sardines. There's no reason they wouldn't do the same at a frag swap. They call it "revenue recovery." However, any officer that is checking Craigslist and driving to peoples homes over the sale of individual specimens should be ashamed of himself or herself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the bad guys in the business are, and there are FAR bigger fish to fry (in a manner of speaking).

License regs can be found here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...D%3EPart%20VII

Aquaculture here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...2523#0379.2523


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Unread 05/18/2010, 06:03 PM   #78
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So if you are right then it follows that one should also have a state of Florida Tax ID # and that you should be filing quarterly tax statements with the state and filing with the IRS as having a business. I did all this when I had a small propagation business out of my garage (600 gallon operation) but I folded that and now just do what most other hobbyist do, the occasional frag auction/sale/trade with either other hobbyist or my local LFS, and all of these come from my own 65 gallon display tank.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 06:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by PDAlber View Post
That's because there is no such provision. Under Florida State Statute, if you are selling, bartering, or exchanging saltwater products, no matter the quantity, you need a commercial license. In order to collect and sell marine life in the state, you would need a Saltwater Products License (SPL) with both restricted species and marine life endorsements (FSS 379.361(2)(a)). This license only allows you to sell to wholesale dealers. In order to sell products to the general public, you need a Saltwater Products Retail license. If you are growing/raising the products you need a retail and/or aquaculture license.

There are no exemptions for small scale operations or hobbyists. Technically, anyone selling marine life needs to have a license. The FWC occassionally sends their officers out to check retail licenses at local bait shops, that sell live shrimp, or frozen sardines. There's no reason they wouldn't do the same at a frag swap. They call it "revenue recovery." However, any officer that is checking Craigslist and driving to peoples homes over the sale of individual specimens should be ashamed of himself or herself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the bad guys in the business are, and there are FAR bigger fish to fry (in a manner of speaking).

License regs can be found here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...D%3EPart%20VII

Aquaculture here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...2523#0379.2523
My position still stands.....The state wants your money. The guy that came to the OP's door had a number of different avenues to pursue. He could have given her a number of different warnings. I'd guess the only reason he didn't give her a fine was because the statutes are so broad and he had difficulty applying the right one that it wouldn't be clear to the magistrate. If he would have fined her and stuck her with the wrong violation, the court could have failed to enforce the penalty if she'd took it in front of a judge. Hence costing the court the time in the hearing and losing....money. I'd be careful if It was me. The officer may have gone back to his PC and figured out what the correct violation was that applied.

again, I would suggest that an initiative was set by his office to drum up more revenue.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 06:28 PM   #80
Chelle's Ocean
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[QUOTE=PDAlber;17122462] Under Florida State Statute, if you are selling, bartering, or exchanging saltwater products, no matter the quantity, you need a commercial license. In order to collect and sell marine life in the state, you would need a Saltwater Products License (SPL) with both restricted species and marine life endorsements (FSS 379.361(2)(a)). This license only allows you to sell to wholesale dealers. In order to sell products to the general public, you need a Saltwater Products Retail license. If you are growing/raising the products you need a retail and/or aquaculture license.

So according to this:
in order to sell 'anything' out of my home aquarium, I need a:
*Fl Tax ID#
*Saltwater Products Retail License
*Aquaculture Permit/License


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Unread 05/18/2010, 07:01 PM   #81
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Of course its about the money. FWC gets a significant part of its funding from the sale of licenses. These laws weren't written to prevent a handful of people from selling captive fish that have outgrown their tanks. Licenses are about raising money for an agency, which in this case is charged with the protection of our natural resources. None the less, the law still applies. The officer could have easily, and justifiably, written her a citation for not having a retail saltwater products license.

The reason he likely didn't was because any self-respecting judge would have laughed him out of the courtroom. The violation is a criminal offense, a second degree misdemeanor. She would have been standing in court next to drunk drivers, wife beaters, and dope smokers. I can only imagine what the judge would have said when he read the officer's report: "You were selling a yellow what???". The officer also would have also likely have been the butt of a few jokes by fellow officers.

Hopefully, when his supervisor sees the written warning, the officer will be "encouraged" to target some more substantial violations.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 07:09 PM   #82
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[QUOTE=Chelle's Ocean;17122859]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDAlber View Post
Under Florida State Statute, if you are selling, bartering, or exchanging saltwater products, no matter the quantity, you need a commercial license. In order to collect and sell marine life in the state, you would need a Saltwater Products License (SPL) with both restricted species and marine life endorsements (FSS 379.361(2)(a)). This license only allows you to sell to wholesale dealers. In order to sell products to the general public, you need a Saltwater Products Retail license. If you are growing/raising the products you need a retail and/or aquaculture license.

So according to this:
in order to sell 'anything' out of my home aquarium, I need a:
*Fl Tax ID#
*Saltwater Products Retail License
*Aquaculture Permit/License
I'm not very familiar with tax and business regulations. But, the officer was technically correct in telling you you need a license (as ridiculous as that is).


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Unread 05/18/2010, 07:24 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by bobparker View Post
My position still stands.....The state wants your money. The guy that came to the OP's door had a number of different avenues to pursue. He could have given her a number of different warnings. I'd guess the only reason he didn't give her a fine was because the statutes are so broad and he had difficulty applying the right one that it wouldn't be clear to the magistrate. If he would have fined her and stuck her with the wrong violation, the court could have failed to enforce the penalty if she'd took it in front of a judge. Hence costing the court the time in the hearing and losing....money. I'd be careful if It was me. The officer may have gone back to his PC and figured out what the correct violation was that applied.

again, I would suggest that an initiative was set by his office to drum up more revenue.

Where did they make money if he gave her a warning? Thank God your dumbas is not enforcing the law.

If you want a answer just call the office number and ask to speak to his boss.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 07:31 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by thetrueclown View Post
Where did they make money if he gave her a warning? Thank God your dumbas is not enforcing the law.

If you want a answer just call the office number and ask to speak to his boss.
They would be making the money on the license if she were to go get it, that's where. A previous poster said that in so many words. This is where these departments make their money. I don't think he's a ******* at all.

This is how the "authorities" make money on us because they hope we will just lay down and pay. It's getting really tiresome.

On another note, the law is broad and maybe we should do something about it. Nothing was done wrong here.


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Unread 05/18/2010, 09:27 PM   #85
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I just started searching for these licenses online and found the page for the Florida aquaculture license that someone above said a hobbyist WOULD need. On the website there is a FAQ and one of the questions reads like this:

"I have a few aquaria in my garage to raise tropical fish. Do I need the certification?
Yes, if you sell the fish you raise. No, if you are a hobbyist."

Also on the same page:
"What criteria are used to determine if my business will be certified as aquaculture?
You must be a bona fide producer of aquaculture products in Florida in order to receive the certificate. Your responses on the application will assist us in determining if your business is appropriate for the certification. Note that farmers must comply with Best Management Practices developed for the aquaculture industry or appropriate interim measures."

So it sounds like to me that hobbyist would NOT need the license. But what about a hobbyist who wants to sell a fish?
Thoughts???

Heres the website. http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/onestop/aqua/aquacert.html



Last edited by mb167204; 05/18/2010 at 09:44 PM.
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Unread 05/19/2010, 06:45 AM   #86
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Yes if you sell the fish you raise, no if you are a hobbyist.

Translation....

If the fish you raise leave your house, you need an aquaculture certificate.

If you raise them to keep for yourself, no you don't need one.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 09:11 AM   #87
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Many of us do raise "frags" with the intent of selling them. Not as a business but as a way to offset the cost of the hobby. I do feel there is a grey area that hobbyist like me operate under. I really think it could be interpreted either way. One might say, "Hey, you are raising stuff with the intent to make money or barter for something of value so you are in need of a license." Another person might say, "It's obvious you are just a hobbyist and operate quite differently than a retailer, wholesaler or aquaculturist so no licensing is required.”

As I mentioned before, I had all this stuff when I was operating a frag business out of my garage. I wouldn't mind acquiring the necessary permits/licenses again but the problem is that then you are having to file taxes (state and federal) and that means tracking expenses, sales, etc. and that is just a pain in the ars when you are only dealing with a few hundred $ per year. Although I bet some of us probably sell $1K + worth of frags. It only takes 50 or so frag sales a year to do that and at that point I bet the various taxing authorities would most certainly want a piece of your pie!


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Unread 05/19/2010, 03:44 PM   #88
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Ok everyone: STOP emailing the offices of the FWC. Apparently we are all very much in the wrong, and a majority of us did not know of it. I did speak with Bill Horn this afternoon- he again confirmed what Miranda had told me, stating 'there was nothing he could think of that I did wrong. BUT then I asked why I got a warning, he asked what division gave me the warning, when I replied it was law enforcement, he then redirected me to another tele #. My husband called this, and spoke with the captain of the law enforcement division, they went into discussion about the incident, and while my husband understands the law the captain brought up.....the captain sees our point of the law just not making sense. It is not clearly written that we, as hobbyists, are required to have a permit/license to do anything with a purchase, whether it be fish,coral,etc. Once we buy the item from a licensed retailer, that is it. We are the final stop- UNLESS we have a license to state we can resell said item.
The captain is actually contacting the marine biologist who was part of writing / enforcing or I guess defining / enforcing this law, and will be calling my husband back to give further information as to what we the reef community should have been doing, can be doing, or will need to be doing. BUT apparently, every time we go to club meetings, frag swaps, fellow trades/sales, we are ILLEGALLY doing so unless the person selling has a license. If you are 'trading', then that is considered bartering, you are getting back something in return....the captain said this is not allowed. I do not know who here is part of MACNA, but do all of the members attending hold such a permit/license? What about the coral market this weekend? When my husband asked the captain about the meetings/trade shows- he was told that these items can be confiscated at any time since they may be performed illegally. QUESTION we have: if this is a law- why do not all of us know about it? When you get into this hobby, you are new, curious, learning as you go. Not one person can state honesty that they have not changed something. The hobby itself creates change. New fish. New coral. Bigger/better systems. Tanks crash so you change tanks....well now the fish you once thought was cute has outgrown its surroundings if you started out with a small tank. If this is really the law, and it appears that it is....then this needs to be told to EVERY person coming into this hobby. i.e."Don't buy this unless you plan on keeping it forever---or you may want to apply for this license..." and have an application at every LFS.
Ok, just wanted to share what the update was so far. There have been ALOT of comments here, both pro and con, so I will continue to keep you guys updated on what it is that we find out. Not sure what we as a reefing community need to do to get this cleared up and written better to protect the ones helping to protect our reefs/aqua life...there must be something - but spreading this on the forums for now works. The captain said he is not familiar with other states requirements, just this one here in Florida.
Will let you know the next update.
Thanks for everyone jumping in on this!


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Unread 05/19/2010, 04:25 PM   #89
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Out of curiousity, what was the captain's name?


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Unread 05/19/2010, 04:33 PM   #90
Chelle's Ocean
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Out of curiousity, what was the captain's name?
Oh, sorry, that I have no idea on. I can try to find out, but you'll have to wait until I speak with my husband again, which may not be until tomorrow.
(OTR driver). If I get it, I will surely pass it on for you.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 05:05 PM   #91
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This is a great thread. Thanks for pursuing clarification as clearly they can't even come to a consensus in their own commission.

I once needed to collect plant specimens on forest service land. Because what I was collecting was neither protected, nor commercial species, they didn't know what to do, as the area required permits to collect anything, but the permits did not cover non-commercial or protected species. Finally they issued me some kind of hand written thing and told me to play dumb.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 05:29 PM   #92
Chelle's Ocean
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This is a great thread. Thanks for pursuing clarification as clearly they can't even come to a consensus in their own commission.
Yeah, the gentleman who came to my home mentioned something about Tampa not knowing what they were doing, and the captain that spoke with my husband basically said the same thing, along the lines of different agencies interpret it differently.....so it is kind of frustrating thinking you are in the right with one agency when you are clearly in violation of the other.
Hope alot are passing this on to others, to get the word out.....


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Unread 05/19/2010, 05:38 PM   #93
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I received a message from a fellow reefer:
I respect your wanting everyone to stop calling / emailing but the only way to change something is with a big voice.

And wanted to clarify my original post:
Oh no- you are 100% correct in that, and Jason and I feel the same way. I will jump back onto the forums and clarify my 1st sentence there. What I meant was to hault the emails flooding the FWC office until the captain of the law enforcement division gets back with Jason, with what the marine biologist tells him. That way we have a final- valid- 100%-(hopefully) result and can then go from there as individuals, as a club, a forum, an entire reefing community.
I'm sorry I made it sound like I was sweeping it away per say- really not intending to do that at all...we are following this out to the end. I will copy and paste this to each post I made.
Thanks for emailing as others will probably read and think the same thing.



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Unread 05/19/2010, 06:21 PM   #94
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This is not the only hobby in FL you need a license for. If you hunt you get a hunting license. If you fish you get a fishing license. If you fly you get a pilots license. If you want to collect wild animals you have to get the right papers to do so. I agree this is a odd case and I think the officer was probably looking for a bigger catch.

You can try to get the law changed but let me play the other side. If the law is changed to have an exception that a hobbyist need not have a license to raise fish and coral and resell them. Can someone not then get fish and coral illegally and when a officer comes around and question him, just tell the officer that he is a hobbyist and that the stuff just came from his own tank? If they want to enforce this law for the good reasons it was establish which was to protect the fish and corals, then having an exception in there like that would make it almost useless.
The only way they could nail someone would be, if they watch them taking the item from the ocean and we know it would be impossible to check every boat that comes in.

License and permits make things legit, I'm an electrician, I have to have a license, I wouldn't hire someone to work on my electric or gas or plumbing or anything else who wasn't legit and a license shows a process by where that person or store can be examined prosecuted if they are doing thing in a bad or dangerous way.

We don't want people to be able to go and collect items from the ocean in mass cause damage and not be responsible just because they say 'I'm a hobbyist.' We all know there are many people making money though our hobby that are not hobbyist and don't and don't care about our hobby one way or another, they only care about the money in their pocket. This law is a check on that kind of behavior.

Yes the law is really open and that maybe because it make enforcement easier. "You're selling this? Where is your permit?" But I think it's safe to say they don't have the time or funds to stake out every persons house that lists items inthe paper or craigs list or whatever. That IMO would make them not even try unless someone reported someone breaking the law.



Thanks for the continued updates on the conversations with the officials, this is a very interesting topic.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 06:45 PM   #95
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You are right, and we are not trying to 'complain and avoid the law' by any means- but there has to be something out there somewhere to say: this is a law. And this is how it is enforced, and this is what you are required to do.
We were completely out of the loop on this one, and when trying to find info on it, we get various answers, so we are still pursuing to get a correct answer so that we know what we are to do to safeguard ourselves, as we plan on being in this hobby for a long time.
I have already begun looking into the permits/licenses everyone here has mentioned, and posted- but it is just not clear yet which one I am to apply for?
A saltwater products license, a saltwater retail license (that I'm pretty sure I need) and an aquaculture permit which someone posted that you need, but they won't give to you so it's a catch 22 unless you own an actual LFS? We are just waiting to get valid clarification, then intend to file whatever application is needed for us personally. Who here holds what permit/license, and for what reason? (not if you are a LFS owner, that would be obvious, just talking about home bodies...anyone here hold any of these? And which did you apply for and under which circumstance) Thanks!


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Unread 05/19/2010, 07:07 PM   #96
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License and permits make things legit, I'm an electrician, I have to have a license,

.
And yet, in many states, I can perfectly legally do my own electrical/plumbing in my own home.

I have to have a background check and permits for purchasing a gun from the store, yet in most states, I can legally buy whatever I want from a private party without the check.

I am not disagreeing with your stance, just noting a few of the multitude of exceptions that are made for the layperson and add to this confusion. There a many many complete reef set-ups (often with livestock lists) being offered in classifieds and on craigslist every day in florida. I seriously doubt that the law preventing a hobbyist from selling a saltwater aquarium set up on craiglist, in a yard sale, etc. would hold up to court interpretation. That is where the spirit of the law would have to be examined.



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Unread 05/19/2010, 07:27 PM   #97
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Has anyone recieved an email response back from FWC? I have not.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 07:58 PM   #98
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This is interesting. I wonder if there is a website addressing what the appropriate laws are in the 50 states so that reefers have a resource to know whether they need a license and what kind. I live in Arizona and have no idea if I would need a license.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 08:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Chelle's Ocean View Post
You are right, and we are not trying to 'complain and avoid the law' by any means- but there has to be something out there somewhere to say: this is a law. And this is how it is enforced, and this is what you are required to do.
We were completely out of the loop on this one, and when trying to find info on it, we get various answers, so we are still pursuing to get a correct answer so that we know what we are to do to safeguard ourselves, as we plan on being in this hobby for a long time.
I have already begun looking into the permits/licenses everyone here has mentioned, and posted- but it is just not clear yet which one I am to apply for?
A saltwater products license, a saltwater retail license (that I'm pretty sure I need) and an aquaculture permit which someone posted that you need, but they won't give to you so it's a catch 22 unless you own an actual LFS? We are just waiting to get valid clarification, then intend to file whatever application is needed for us personally. Who here holds what permit/license, and for what reason? (not if you are a LFS owner, that would be obvious, just talking about home bodies...anyone here hold any of these? And which did you apply for and under which circumstance) Thanks!
I'm afraid you are not going to get a very clear answer on this. The rules regulating fisheries are quite comlpex, sometimes vague, and often confusing. The particular rules we are talking about were written mainly for the commercial fishing industry, not marine aquarium hobbyists. Unfortunately for us, according to the law, ANYONE that sells marinelife is considered "commercial".

The other problem is the lack of knowledge and expertise within the agency. As you have experienced, you can call three different people at FWC and get three different answers. There are a couple of reasons for this. For one, the FWC Division of Law Enforcement is charged with enforcing a WIDE range of rules, including everything from duck hunting to domestic security. But, since the are no divisions within the Division of Law Enforcement, every officer is basically expected to know everything within his area (a jack-of-all-trades, but expert of none). This problem is compounded by a very high turnover rate within the department. FWC is among the lowest paid agencies in the state, and has no merit or step pay raise system for its officers. New guys on the job make the same as officers with 20 years. The average officer has less than two years on the job and leaves before truly becoming proficient in his/her duties.

Based on my experience, I can tell you that most hobbyist, selling frags and/or fish, would satisfy the FWC by purchasing either a retail license OR an aquaculture permit. A saltwater products license is for people that are HARVESTING (collecting) marinelife, and only allows you to sell to a wholesale dealer. Hope this helps.


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Unread 05/19/2010, 08:59 PM   #100
redfishsc
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The whole idea of the frag-swapping being regulated nauseates me.


This hobby, as sweet and fun as it is, is complicated enough!


Chelle's Ocean, thanks for posting this and doing all the work you've done for us.

I'm in NC, not FL, but this still frustrates me.


Someone wants to thin out the overgrowth in their tank, and they have to buy a license?


That's detrimental to the hobby and, if more states follow this type of mindset and lawmaking, they will do a real disservice to the captive culture of corals, fish, and inverts.

The cottage industry of propagation is getting bigger every year (a very good thing) and hopefully we are reducing the strain on wild-caught stuff.

Laws like this cannot help that situation UNLESS they are being enforced on native species that could be poached.


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