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03/29/2012, 11:18 AM | #26 | |
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If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef |
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03/29/2012, 11:22 AM | #27 | |
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If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef |
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03/29/2012, 11:32 AM | #28 |
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Yes sir, I got that from my reading. Formalin will be a bucket bath only. Copper in the actual hospital tank.
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03/29/2012, 11:59 AM | #29 | ||
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Not trying to be picky, I just have lots of questions on this issue but don't these two statement contradict each other? Perhaps I don't fully understand your method. Can you cure velvet with FW and Formalin dips/bath alone? without Copper treatment? If so, do you need to sterilize the hospital tank each time?
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03/29/2012, 02:45 PM | #30 |
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The dips remove most but not all of the non-motile parasitic trophozoites in the gills by causing them to burst (fresh water dip) or drop off (formalin). This provides a great deal of relief for the fish. However, some are more deeply embedded (as is ich) and are unaffected so the ongoing copper treatment will nail them when they reproduce. Without dips, the parasite is so quick acting that copper will kill the parasites but not before the fish dies.
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03/29/2012, 02:48 PM | #31 | |
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03/29/2012, 03:43 PM | #32 |
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Got ya That's what I thought but wanted to check. Thanks for the help
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03/30/2012, 08:12 AM | #33 |
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I'm starting to second guess my diagnosis. It’s been one week now since exposure and absolutely no symptoms yet on both the fish in the display or the wrasse in QT. I would assume the wrasse in QT would show symptoms first as that tank has been exposed the longest. It might be ick, in which case it may be a bit reckless to just start yanking all the fish out and into an uncycled hospital tank. If it is ick I still plan to do the right thing and treat all the fish to insure my tank is clean, but I can take a bit more time and do it right.
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03/30/2012, 09:58 AM | #34 |
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I'm pretty sure I am successfully using the salifert copper test kit to monitor cupramine. I prefer this test kit over seachems own kits as it's only 1 step and the range is tighter and colors more easily interpreted for me.
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03/30/2012, 08:00 PM | #35 |
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I came home today to find the PBT covered head to tail in salt-like spots, no velvet-like sheen I could see. No other fish show symptoms. Unsure if I'm dealing with velvet or ick, all the fish I could catch received a 5 min pH adjusted FW bath and a 45 min Formalin dip. The ones that survived are in my original QT tank (no Amquel) with the first dose of Cupramine. I adjusted my Formalin dosage based on Steven Pro's RK article. Rid-Ick is only 11.5% Formalin so I ended up dosing about 9.5mL into 4 gallons.
The PBT quickly went downhill shortly after the FW bath and never recovered. I could not catch the Bartlett's or the Orchid dottyback. I'll try again tomorrow. Does anyone what to take a stab based on the timeline and/or the PBT's reaction to the FW dip on whether this is ick or velvet??
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03/31/2012, 06:22 AM | #36 | |
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If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef |
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03/31/2012, 06:29 AM | #37 |
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Timeline says velvet. But with all the time involved, it could be either. But copper kills both. You've delayed treatment since at least the 27th and, assuming it is velvet, you'll lose all your fish soon. You may have to drain your tank into plastic garbage cans , or whatever. Get the fish out anyway you can, ASAP. Copper may do them too, these fish must be very weak and you no longer have the option of slowly introducing copper; but that's what you need. Dips will help velvet, won't hurt ich. Waiting kills everything, the fish surely had parasites in their gills that you couldn't see.
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If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef Last edited by MrTuskfish; 03/31/2012 at 06:37 AM. |
03/31/2012, 08:17 AM | #38 | |
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03/31/2012, 08:37 AM | #39 |
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Yes, I'm not very hopeful either. I've learned some huge lessons here.
I'm not at all new to this hobby. I had my first SW tank back in 92. And I have had some form of reef tank continuously now for the last 12 years. I never QTd until I set up this larger system about a year ago. Of course, the one time I shorten it, it bites me in the butt. About 6 months ago my jawfish tank was wipeout by velvet. I added a new group of 3 to an establish group of 5. The fish came from the same source collected out of the same waters. They were the only species in the tank so I did not bother to QT. All fish dead within a week. Am I just having bad luck lately or have these diseases become much more common and virulent over the last few years?
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Nick St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists' (SLASH) Coral Donor Program (CDP) Because, "Friends don't let friends pay $50 a polyp!" Over 200 different corals and counting... Current Tank Info: 352 Quintillion Gallon Last edited by Reeferhead; 03/31/2012 at 09:01 AM. |
03/31/2012, 08:41 AM | #40 | |
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03/31/2012, 09:01 AM | #41 | |
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Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present.
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03/31/2012, 09:07 AM | #42 | |
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I plan to research and re-plan my entire QT and prophylactic treatment strategy for fish going forward.
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Nick St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists' (SLASH) Coral Donor Program (CDP) Because, "Friends don't let friends pay $50 a polyp!" Over 200 different corals and counting... Current Tank Info: 352 Quintillion Gallon |
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03/31/2012, 09:18 AM | #43 | |
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The initial receiving tank is temp and SG adjusted to the bag water( SG a few points couple of points lower than the bagwater is ok but not higher) This obviates the need for drip acclimation and prolonged stays in bag water where pH can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened. This is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag. During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers, move fish on the morning of days 4,7,10,13) observe for other maladies. Since there are no meds to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , use an ammonia detoxifier during each 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity,even though total copper measures the same. If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, velvet or flukes , do a formalin bath before starting treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brooklynellosis or prazi pro for flukes. Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed, velvet can take up to 30 days to present), use a larger cycled QT tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary. Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for ich,the most common killer Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself. BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.
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03/31/2012, 09:24 AM | #44 | |
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http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1846124 Its obvious to me now that two weeks doesn't do S.
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03/31/2012, 10:54 AM | #45 | |
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03/31/2012, 01:20 PM | #46 | |
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The Anthias is now covered in ick-like spots, still eating though. I'll continue to try and catch it and the dottyback but IMO its not worth tearing the tank apart for. The dottyback is pushing 8 years anyway and was showing its age. The clowns and the YWG look to be doing ok in QT. I treated the wrasse yesterday as well but I don't think he's handling it too well.
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03/31/2012, 01:35 PM | #47 |
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Confidence level in tank transfer is absolute from my perspective. Read the life cycle sticky. But, again, you are free to do whatever you think best.
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04/01/2012, 06:01 AM | #48 | |
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If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef |
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04/01/2012, 04:30 PM | #49 |
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Yep, TT makes sense. I'm going to apply the lessons I've learned going forward after I get through this rough patch. There's always something new to learn in this hobby. I really wish I don't have to learn anymore the hard way.
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Nick St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists' (SLASH) Coral Donor Program (CDP) Because, "Friends don't let friends pay $50 a polyp!" Over 200 different corals and counting... Current Tank Info: 352 Quintillion Gallon |
04/02/2012, 08:47 AM | #50 |
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Melenuras was dead yesterday morning. The anthias and dottyback have quit eating. The clowns and the YWG will likely be the only survivors of this ordeal.
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Nick St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists' (SLASH) Coral Donor Program (CDP) Because, "Friends don't let friends pay $50 a polyp!" Over 200 different corals and counting... Current Tank Info: 352 Quintillion Gallon |
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