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Unread 02/15/2007, 09:37 PM   #1
Pbrown3701
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Automatic Water Changer

I have designed and built an automatic water changing / Auto Top Off device and I need some feedback from the DIY board. I am thinking about patenting the design but before forking out the dough on legal fees etc, I wanted to inquire about potential market....since this is the DIY board, i figured, this would be the most critical audience. If it goes over well here, then I assume it would go over ok with those who just buy stuff.

The Device:
I can not go into too much detail other than to explain how one would use the device. I appoligize in advance for the cripticness of this post.

Basically, the user connects the device to the tank or sump. The user then connects a top off water source and reservoir. The user also connects a premixed fresh saltwater reservoir and a drain reservoir (or drain).

The device automatically maintains the water level in the sump by adding fresh water to account for evaporation (ATO). Additionally, the device has a switch that when pressed, initiates an automatic water change. The device removes a preset amount of tank water and replaces it with the freshly mixed saltwater. This is all done hands free and without having to shut off the main return pump.

The only thing the user has to possibly do is: 1. Mix saltwater and move the reservoir close enough to the sump when needed. 2. dump the waste water if a drain is not present. 3. maintain fresh water level for ATO function if the reservoir is not automatically filled via float valve. 4. turn switch.

My question is this: what would you expect a product like this could sell for/what would you expect to pay for something like this? Would you find this useful if it opperates as described.

Thank you for your comments and recomendations in advance!


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Unread 02/15/2007, 09:55 PM   #2
PrivateJoker64
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I already have a set-up basicly like that that I made. I open a valve that is at the waterline in my sump, set an empty bucket under the spout, flip on a switch that runs the pump to put fresh saltwater into the display. I leave the switch on for one minute then turn it off. A couple minutes later, water stops running into the bucket, so I close the valve and empty the bucket. I mix saltwater once a month. The new water is 2 degrees cooler than the display so it sinks and old water goes over the overflow. The return, skimmer, etc stay on for all this. I think several other people do the same as well.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 09:56 PM   #3
PrivateJoker64
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BTW, this is in addition to my auto make-up, which is seperate. Make-up water feeds through my kalk reactor, and the reactor stirs every three hours, but only if the pH in the tank is below 8.3


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Unread 02/15/2007, 09:59 PM   #4
PrivateJoker64
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The price you could get would depend on what pump you use. The rest of the stuff is cheap. You could probably sell a few, but not to the DIY'ers.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 09:59 PM   #5
Pbrown3701
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That works well for people who have drilled sumps with a hole at the water line. My device would be for those who are using stock equipment and are not comfortable drilling holes. It also doesn't require one to open and close a valve (not that that is a big deal, unless you forget to open or close it.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:03 PM   #6
PrivateJoker64
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What if the return pump fails? Can water overflow the sump?
Or are you using a solenoid valve that opens to drain the old water? Or a pump to remove the old water? It's hard to say what you might sell it for if we don't know what's involved. I know you might not want to say, though...


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:05 PM   #7
Pbrown3701
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no. the device is designed to be fail safe. Overflows are a near impossibility (multiple safety "catches")


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:06 PM   #8
PrivateJoker64
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Is the volume of water that it will change adjustable?


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pbrown3701
no. the device is designed to be fail safe. Overflows are a near impossibility (multiple safety "catches")
I doubt anyone could tell you what you should charge. You'll just have to figure what you have in parts, plus something for your labor.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:09 PM   #10
Pbrown3701
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IT would ideally be for people who have a "wet room" who can connect the device to a drain and keep the saltwater reservoir close by.....kinda defeats the purpose of automatic if the owner has to wheel a couple of large water containers everytime they want to use it.

In my set up, i have the waste go down the drain and the fresh SW reservoir is kept behind the wall in the garage. I mix salt out there and have that container set to automatically fill with freshwater from the RO/DI filter. I just add salt once a week, and then hit the switch. Water change is done that easily (in my case).


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:10 PM   #11
Pbrown3701
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the amount of water changed is adjustable. It includes an automatic shut off when the SW reservoir runs low also.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:12 PM   #12
Pbrown3701
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Quote:
Originally posted by PrivateJoker64
I doubt anyone could tell you what you should charge. You'll just have to figure what you have in parts, plus something for your labor.
Well, that is obvious. I was just wondering what people would expect to see something like this go for.

The other option would be to license the product to another company who could make them...


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:16 PM   #13
Pbrown3701
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....reasoning being, i don't want to go pay a few thousand dollars to get the patent and then not be able to sell them because the required selling price is too high...


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:20 PM   #14
PrivateJoker64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pbrown3701
IT would ideally be for people who have a "wet room" who can connect the device to a drain and keep the saltwater reservoir close by.....kinda defeats the purpose of automatic if the owner has to wheel a couple of large water containers everytime they want to use it.

In my set up, i have the waste go down the drain and the fresh SW reservoir is kept behind the wall in the garage. I mix salt out there and have that container set to automatically fill with freshwater from the RO/DI filter. I just add salt once a week, and then hit the switch. Water change is done that easily (in my case).
A nearby drain is a convenience I don't have. Well, I do, but it is higher than the outflow from my sump (it's a toilet). My new water reservoir is right there though, and plumbed into the system.
As a WAG, I'd say you could probably get $100 -$150 for it. Maybe more.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pbrown3701
....reasoning being, i don't want to go pay a few thousand dollars to get the patent and then not be able to sell them because the required selling price is too high...
Wow! I had no idea patents cost so much. I wish you luck with it though.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:26 PM   #16
Pbrown3701
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Thanks! my brother is even a lawyer and I would have his firm do the work. I get a 2k allowance for family, but they estimate that it could cost an additional 1500 and up to 25k!!! depending on "complexity" (whatever that means). I expect the patent cost to run about 3-6k


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:30 PM   #17
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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:35 PM   #18
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The "device" you are talking about already exisits in many forms. A pair of metering pumps or dual head persistaltic pump is all that is needed. Many folks already use that setup to do a continuous water change. In this way you do not need to worry about what the ATO is doing. The same volume that is going out as waste is coming in as replacement, the water level never changes.


Ther are certainly many ways to skin a cat...

It sounds like your system will attempt to control the water level in the sump via ATO (float switched, pressure switches or whatever) and use the same set of switches to control the removal and replacement of water. In the simplest form a single pair of floats and a latching relay circuit would handle both the ATO and the drain and fill. The "hard part" is the failsafe logic to make sure that no matter what everything works as planned.

Take out the latching relays and replace them with a PIC or ATMEL microcontroller and even that logic becomes rather trivial.

As for help with marketing and tweaking... I am not quite sure that the "DIY" community will be thrilled to help you fine tune your business venture. I would also asusme that you could very easily step over the commercial part of the UA here at RC.

Patents? You will find as many opinions as there are people here. It will cost you a small fortune to do it right... you may end up spending a lot of money only to find that your idea is already covered or public domain.

You may want to contact legal council and an accountant. Then decide if you want a patent or you just want to start trying to sell these things. Planning is everyting... so you need to decide what market you want to sell to and how you will meet your projected production needs and costs.

I have shelfs full of stuff I shoulda patented or sold... oh well


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Unread 02/15/2007, 10:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pbrown3701
Thanks! my brother is even a lawyer and I would have his firm do the work. I get a 2k allowance for family, but they estimate that it could cost an additional 1500 and up to 25k!!! depending on "complexity" (whatever that means). I expect the patent cost to run about 3-6k
That is just for starters... what do you do if somebody infringes on it? To collect damages you will need a lot more than a few thousand dollars and the family discount

Understand that one of the biggest games going is for large companies to outwardly infringe, knowing you do not have the money to defend your patent. They take a foothold in the market with their name on your idea. If you call their bluff... they pay the damages but also still benefit from having the brand recognition. Very few "small" patent onwers survice this.

The last patent that my family played with cost around $50,000 to work... in the end it was infringed and the group spending the money to try and produce the product (my father being one of them) had to either dump another $100,000 in or walk away in disgust.

The big problem here is that reefing is an almost non existant market. Ther eare pros and cons to that.... but I will leave that up to you to figure out

Good luck and I wish you well.


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Unread 02/15/2007, 11:11 PM   #20
Pbrown3701
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Thanks for your input Bean. I was actually going to ask you to visit the thread on one of the others you were posting on. This is valuable advice.

I have considered just marketing and selling without patenting, but then it compounds your point about a larger company coming in and pricing you out. So what to do then?...

Out of curiosity, where does one find a dual head peristaltic pump, oh king of the useful links?


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Unread 02/15/2007, 11:16 PM   #21
Pbrown3701
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oh, and i wasn't looking for the "DIY community to help me fine tune my venture." Quite the opposite. THe prototype is complete and has been working flawlessly for some months. I was looking for constructive critisim why I shouldn't proceed (other methods of accomplishing the same task, etc). also for a sense of what price a device of this type could bring.

I'm fully aware of the rules of this forum pertaining to commercial ventures as well. I am not looking to sell the item here (after all , i haven't even explained how the thing works.)


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Unread 02/15/2007, 11:57 PM   #22
raddogz
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Spectrapure Litermeter III

Granted you have to purchase extra pumps, but people will buy it all the same.

Many people would rather pay the extra dollar just for the Spectrapure name only and knowing that the product works the way how it is supposed to. There is no second guessing, and there is customer service to back it up.

Good luck in your venture.


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