trace elements???

[prosper]

I have a 40 long with a 25 gallon refugim and a total of 30 gallons held in the sump... I keep my parameters as follows...

KH-9.5-10
PH-8.1 night 8.2 day
calcium-460 ppm
magnesium-1450ppm

the only corals I'm getting substantial growth on (noticeable growth over a day or two) are my pongee birds nest, and my green rhodactis... my other sps haven't quite ''taken off'' yet.

I'm going to be running a modified triton, just by dosing brs 2 part instead of the core chem 7... should I be supplementing trace elements with something like red sea's trace colors program?
this is my first reef tank, so if someone could help me out I would appreciate it A LOT...

thanks!

Prosper

[RobZilla04]

Lighting?

Trace elements are not needed in general. Water changes and 2-part are replenishing the necessary trace elements. Dosing a trace elements product in addition will not kick off rapid coral growth.

Look at increased flow (SPS need high flow), lighting, and nutrient levels such as Nitrates / Phosphates.

How old is the tank? If it is fairly new, give the system time to develop and diversify. Many times the coral seem to do nothing for long periods of time and then for no reason at all they explode with growth after being left alone.

[Bpb]

Originally Posted by RobZilla04

Lighting?



Trace elements are not needed in general. Water changes and 2-part are replenishing the necessary trace elements. Dosing a trace elements product in addition will not kick off rapid coral growth.



Look at increased flow (SPS need high flow), lighting, and nutrient levels such as Nitrates / Phosphates.



How old is the tank? If it is fairly new, give the system time to develop and diversify. Many times the coral seem to do nothing for long periods of time and then for no reason at all they explode with growth after being left alone.

That has been my experience as well. Wait for the tank to mature. Trace elements, if deficient, and you can pinpoint which ones ARE deficient, and you can dose only those ones up to range, MAY improve your color vibrancy a touch but if and only if your light, alkalinity, nutrients, and flow are balanced with each other. They won’t cause growth to explode, even under the best conditions, and if over dosed can cause way more harm than a deficiency.

Having 50-100x tank turnover in flow, alkalinity stable and in the 7-8 dkh range, nitrate in the 5-10 ppm range, PO4 in the 0.03-0.06 ppm range, and 300-500 par will be the best recipe for rapid growth once your tank has matured and has a diverse enough bacteria population.

Trace elements are only something of concern for very minor tweaks in color and if you have very right control in modifying them. Bolus dosing mixed trace products haphazardly will almost certainly end up in disaster


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[mcgyvr]

Most would recommend against adding anything to the tank that you can't/don't test for..
If you are doing the Triton system including the ICP testing then you can add whatever is needed based on the results of the testing if you wish..
But without that I would not add anything as you have no clue if you are adding it in excess or not..


And if you are basing growth decisions off thinking growth is noticeable over a day or 2 then you are in for a huge let down.. Its VERY..VERY uncommon for corals to show noticeable growth every few days.. That is totally unrealistic.. Many times the only way to notice any real coral growth is by taking pictures and comparing weeks or more apart...

[Phixman]

If you have decent flow and light , then give it time , it will eventually take off if you keep your parameters stable. I wouldn't add anything, how old is the tank?

[prosper]

Originally Posted by Phixman

If you have decent flow and light , then give it time , it will eventually take off if you keep your parameters stable. I wouldn't add anything, how old is the tank?

The tank is 10 months old


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[prosper]

Originally Posted by Bpb

That has been my experience as well. Wait for the tank to mature. Trace elements, if deficient, and you can pinpoint which ones ARE deficient, and you can dose only those ones up to range, MAY improve your color vibrancy a touch but if and only if your light, alkalinity, nutrients, and flow are balanced with each other. They won’t cause growth to explode, even under the best conditions, and if over dosed can cause way more harm than a deficiency.

Having 50-100x tank turnover in flow, alkalinity stable and in the 7-8 dkh range, nitrate in the 5-10 ppm range, PO4 in the 0.03-0.06 ppm range, and 300-500 par will be the best recipe for rapid growth once your tank has matured and has a diverse enough bacteria population.

Trace elements are only something of concern for very minor tweaks in color and if you have very right control in modifying them. Bolus dosing mixed trace products haphazardly will almost certainly end up in disaster


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Phosphate is undetectable (with a cheap test kit that only goes to .1 ppm) nitrate is 1-3 ppm, I just added another powerhead and now it’s between 1600-2400gph turnover


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[prosper]

Originally Posted by RobZilla04

Lighting?



Trace elements are not needed in general. Water changes and 2-part are replenishing the necessary trace elements. Dosing a trace elements product in addition will not kick off rapid coral growth.



Look at increased flow (SPS need high flow), lighting, and nutrient levels such as Nitrates / Phosphates.



How old is the tank? If it is fairly new, give the system time to develop and diversify. Many times the coral seem to do nothing for long periods of time and then for no reason at all they explode with growth after being left alone.

I was trying to avoid water changes as much as possible, would it be ok with only water changes when trying to avert disasters



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[RobZilla04]

Lots of tanks are run now with no water changes. If you can manage nuisance nutrient export and replenish essential elements through dosing then you can get away without water changes. That's really as simple as it gets.

[bertoni]

This article discusses what water changes do:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[Bpb]

I’m really not in the no water change camp. 99% for my own personal experience. My tank just does better with them. Doesn’t matter the fact that I carbon dose and maintain calcium and alkalinity. My nutrients are present but low. Perfectly stable and dialed in. Calcium reactor and frequent feedings provide a generally good trace and minor element profile. Stable parameters with heavy in heavy out philosophy. But....skip water changes and within a couple months the tank takes a nose dive. Do a water change and the tank will look better that day than any other day of the week

I feel like no water changing CAN be done, but you are going to greatly complexity the system and increase your costs to remove that one piece of husbandry. Even if you have your nutrient export on point, maintain calcium and alkalinity, ICP test often and address all trace elements individually, you may likely find yourself having to remove something building up that chaeto and carbon won’t take up. Have plenty of polyfilter on hand as well to take care of any metal compounds that may be building up.

Again, I get how people have a stigma about water changes and how inconvenient they can be. But step back and see that to eliminate them, you’re simply replacing that cost with more testing and all the individual components that a quality salt mix will already have. Best of luck though either way you choose


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[tmz]

I've tried various trace elements over the years with no discernible benefit. Small frequent water changes do very well.

[prosper]

Originally Posted by Bpb

I’m really not in the no water change camp. 99% for my own personal experience. My tank just does better with them. Doesn’t matter the fact that I carbon dose and maintain calcium and alkalinity. My nutrients are present but low. Perfectly stable and dialed in. Calcium reactor and frequent feedings provide a generally good trace and minor element profile. Stable parameters with heavy in heavy out philosophy. But....skip water changes and within a couple months the tank takes a nose dive. Do a water change and the tank will look better that day than any other day of the week

I feel like no water changing CAN be done, but you are going to greatly complexity the system and increase your costs to remove that one piece of husbandry. Even if you have your nutrient export on point, maintain calcium and alkalinity, ICP test often and address all trace elements individually, you may likely find yourself having to remove something building up that chaeto and carbon won’t take up. Have plenty of polyfilter on hand as well to take care of any metal compounds that may be building up.

Again, I get how people have a stigma about water changes and how inconvenient they can be. But step back and see that to eliminate them, you’re simply replacing that cost with more testing and all the individual components that a quality salt mix will already have. Best of luck though either way you choose


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the system is 76 gallons (minus live rock)....so would 5 gallons a week be sufficient?

[Uncle99]

Originally Posted by prosper

I have a 40 long with a 25 gallon refugim and a total of 30 gallons held in the sump... I keep my parameters as follows...

KH-9.5-10
PH-8.1 night 8.2 day
calcium-460 ppm
magnesium-1450ppm

the only corals I'm getting substantial growth on (noticeable growth over a day or two) are my pongee birds nest, and my green rhodactis... my other sps haven't quite ''taken off'' yet.

I'm going to be running a modified triton, just by dosing brs 2 part instead of the core chem 7... should I be supplementing trace elements with something like red sea's trace colors program?
this is my first reef tank, so if someone could help me out I would appreciate it A LOT...

thanks!

Prosper

Be super careful if your going to try RED SEA Colours. You have to be absolutely sure of your calcium usage or you can easily overdose this stuff.
The result, dead corals, not colored corals.

If it's your first reef, I would not use the colours program.

[prosper]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Be super careful if your going to try RED SEA Colours. You have to be absolutely sure of your calcium usage or you can easily overdose this stuff.
The result, dead corals, not colored corals.

If it's your first reef, I would not use the colours program.

I wasn't aware of that... my calcium demand is ridiculously low, like I dose roughly 6 times as much alkalinity as calcium, and still have not yet had to dose magnesium.

[RobZilla04]

Originally Posted by prosper

I wasn't aware of that... my calcium demand is ridiculously low, like I dose roughly 6 times as much alkalinity as calcium, and still have not yet had to dose magnesium.

This is very common when starting out dosing. Especially if corraline algae is taking off. They will/should balance over time. Stability is the key.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by prosper

the system is 76 gallons (minus live rock)....so would 5 gallons a week be sufficient?

Yes, FWIW' I do 1% per day

[bertoni]

Originally Posted by prosper

I wasn't aware of that... my calcium demand is ridiculously low, like I dose roughly 6 times as much alkalinity as calcium, and still have not yet had to dose magnesium.

The consumption ratio for calcium and alkalinity is about 20 ppm Ca⁺⁺ per 2.8 dKH, so it can be hard to measure the calcium change with a hobbyist test kit.

[prosper]

Originally Posted by bertoni

The consumption ratio for calcium and alkalinity is about 20 ppm Ca⁺⁺ per 2.8 dKH, so it can be hard to measure the calcium change with a hobbyist test kit.

that makes a lot of sense

[Timmste]

If you test for Sr/B/K/I you can also decide to correct values every now and then with dry powders; strontiumchloride/disodium tetraborate/potassium chloride/potassium iodide. If you know much mg K is in KCI.. and you are short x ppm (mg/l) seawater you add x mg * tankvolume / % 'K' and just dump it to your ato reservoir.. you can add all chlorides together and all sodium. E.g. if you want to correcting kH/B/I in 1 go... and Ca/Mg/K/Sr in 1go.. just make sure you use large enough watercontainer to prevent adding to much too fast.

It saves you a lot of money..

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[Phixman]

It's possibly to not do water changes, you will need a way to export nutrients and add trace elements. In my experience, this is easier with a larger tank , you can use an algae scrubber and run a chaeto reactor , I will run both in my new tank. As for trace elements two part is probably the cheapest way to go, if you buy bulk from BRS. As for red sea's trace colors, I personally wouldn't do it, too expensive, and can be overdosed. Also, I personally wouldn't chase other elements like Iron, Iodine, and Potassium, it's not clear if these elements even do much for coral, just focus on the big three, Alk, Calcium, Magnesium and try to keep them stable.

[Timmste]

Originally Posted by Phixman

It's possibly to not do water changes, you will need a way to export nutrients and add trace elements. In my experience, this is easier with a larger tank , you can use an algae scrubber and run a chaeto reactor , I will run both in my new tank. As for trace elements two part is probably the cheapest way to go, if you buy bulk from BRS. As for red sea's trace colors, I personally wouldn't do it, too expensive, and can be overdosed. Also, I personally wouldn't chase other elements like Iron, Iodine, and Potassium, it's not clear if these elements even do much for coral, just focus on the big three, Alk, Calcium, Magnesium and try to keep them stable.

If the scrubber is large enough you (can lid it from 1 side and) will need to remove the cheatomorpha linum; it will compete with the algae for nutrients. I also removed a marinepure block for the same reason (bacteria competing with the algae for no3). Unless you go skimmerless, your potassium levels will drop. Even if there is no actual consumption, there is 0.4gr in each liter of skimmate.


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[Phixman]

Originally Posted by Timmste

I plan on running a skimmer since I'll probably have a lid on my tank for the majority of time to prevent too much evaporation from the Red Sea 350, having the skimmer will help with ph and oxygenate the water. Thanks for pointing that out though. I like the chaeto since it can bring in some money for frags, but wanted the algae scrubber since a lot of people have had success with it.


What algae scrubber is that? How big is your tank?

[Timmste]

Originally Posted by Phixman

I plan on running a skimmer since I'll probably have a lid on my tank for the majority of time to prevent too much evaporation from the Red Sea 350, having the skimmer will help with ph and oxygenate the water. Thanks for pointing that out though. I like the chaeto since it can bring in some money for frags, but wanted the algae scrubber since a lot of people have had success with it.


What algae scrubber is that? How big is your tank?

Well, algae releases oxigen and takes up co2 (like a plant does).. if your scrubber is not lid very powerfully.. you can extend the time the scrubber is lid and not need a skimmer (if you would only have it for that purpose ofcourse). A scrubber is a dynamic thing though.. if you accidently burn the algae.. or do something wrong (like too much flow) it will inhibit growth and yellow the water if some dies.. and nutrients will temporarely rise without a skimmer. It is a trade off..

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