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Old 06/16/2010, 09:31 AM   #2501
biecacka
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one thing i really like about this thread is the abundance of knowledge being shared among fellow reefers! thanks guys!
corey


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Old 06/16/2010, 09:33 AM   #2502
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mr wilson i agree with the powerhead placement. i however have my tank drilled on back wall, so i have a tunze on one side blowing right then one on other side blowing left so it creates a race track type flow. any thoughts on that? one is higher on the glass than the other
corey


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Old 06/16/2010, 12:22 PM   #2503
Patrick F
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Hello Mr. Wilson,

I have a few questions that I have been pondering lately with my setup and would really enjoy your input. I have double 90 gallon setups plumbed into one sump that is partioned in multiple sections.
I have two protein skimmers running on the system purely out of curiousity to see if both units will run efficiently and remove skimmate (also I had a feeling the euroreef could not handle to overall volume of water). The setup has been running like this for six months (the system itself has been running for two years) I have to admit it seems rather confusing to me the feedback I have recieved from the system.
The two protein skimmers are a euroreef rs180 and a h&s recirculating skimmer with two aquabee 2000/lh. The h&s is being fed directly from the overflow and drained into a seperate compartment that the opposite 90 gallon is drained into. The euroreef is being fed the remaining overflow water from the opposite 90 gallon as well as any subsequent water that the recirc cannot handle due to it being valved to recieve approximately 200 gallons an hour.
Within the past few weeks after I noted your interesting article on ozone usage I decided that it would be entertaining to plug in the ozone unit again on this system since the orp reading from the meter was registering 240 - 260 on average. I also learned from your article about ozone that perhaps utilizing a air pump to feed ozone wasn't necessary so I am running the ozone currently connected to the air feed on one of the aqua bee pumps ( I am using all ozone safe parts and properly using carbon to reduce chance of ozone leaching into system and air).
Since I have hooked up ozone on this unit the skimmer seems to be removing more skimmate however it is significantly more of a yellow liquid and certainly less thick. The orp though is running 310-330 according to the orp meter and the water clarity has increased in my opinion. The ozone unit I am running is the Red Sea Aquazone 100mg/hr. I have it setup at 75% currently and would assume I should likely increase to 100% to raise the orp into the 350 range? Or do you feel I should hook up the air drier and air pump to more efficiently use the ozone unit. I understand that the orp reading is somewhat subjective and can been interpretted many different ways.

I suppose what I am asking from you is what is your opinion on my application of running ozone and should I augment it / change it and what do you think I should take away from the readings from my orp meter?
Do you think that the ozone is breaking down the organics too efficiently in the skimmer and that is the feedback I am getting with the colour of skimmate produced. I do understand that ozone usage through a protein skimmer is not the most efficient way to use ozone but I didn't really see many other options of application that I wanted to attempt.
As a side note could you suggest to me why the euroreef model has been running significantly more efficient than the h&s model for performance for over two years?
When I setup the two units to run together "against" each other I mentally wagered toward the h&s unit heavily due to its size and multiple pumps and indeed price point.

I am truly sorry to hijack your thread Peter but since all of this conversation of protein skimming and proper sump flow I just had to inquire about my own "experiences" that I am witnessing.


Patrick


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Old 06/16/2010, 12:24 PM   #2504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur View Post
Can you show us some pic of this?? Becasue I have troubles with small fishes constantly going to the overflow
If your overflow has limited surface area, or the return pump is strong (over 1000 GPH) the water level over the overflow wall will be high and inviting for fish, especially wrasse, gobies & blennies.

I have a drawing but I need to figure out how to reduce a 450 KB PDF down to 102 KB? Any tips... anyone? I can convert it to JPG to get it to 112, but th equality and colours change a lot.


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Old 06/16/2010, 01:03 PM   #2505
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I cannot believe that I have finally caught up!! Great build thread Peter and so far I have enjoyed the ride and looking forward to the rest of the ride. I had an in wall tank a few years ago and when I moved from Burlington back to NS I had to get ride of it, no room in the new house until I complete some renovations. But during my build phase with the old tank I was able to meet Shawn during some local club meetings and he was very helpful to have around.

As for the book you want him to write, I am very tempted just to copy all the posts that he has made just during this build and post that info on a web site. I think I have learned more stuff just in the past few days reading this thread then I could have rereading all my books I have.

Since I am starting my new tank plan all over again, just a small one about 300 gallons, it is always nice to read these threads for new and old information again just to make sure that I get everything done right the first time, or at least try to.

One last thing, my wife loves your wife's garden. Her favorite line to me is if you want a new tank then I will need a much bigger garden to work in. Since I am on just under an acre lot now you can only guess how big of a garden she wants, more garden less lawn.

Look forward to your updates.

Cheers!!

Pat


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Old 06/16/2010, 02:04 PM   #2506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.wilson View Post
If your overflow has limited surface area, or the return pump is strong (over 1000 GPH) the water level over the overflow wall will be high and inviting for fish, especially wrasse, gobies & blennies.

I have a drawing but I need to figure out how to reduce a 450 KB PDF down to 102 KB? Any tips... anyone? I can convert it to JPG to get it to 112, but th equality and colours change a lot.
Assuming you are able to convert it to a higher resolution JPEG and it would still be readable, you can upload it to a site like photobucket or google picassa. Then just link to it from here rather than uploading it as an attachment to RC.


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Old 06/16/2010, 02:29 PM   #2507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazzmacd View Post
I cannot believe that I have finally caught up!! Great build thread Peter and so far I have enjoyed the ride and looking forward to the rest of the ride. I had an in wall tank a few years ago and when I moved from Burlington back to NS I had to get ride of it, no room in the new house until I complete some renovations. But during my build phase with the old tank I was able to meet Shawn during some local club meetings and he was very helpful to have around.

As for the book you want him to write, I am very tempted just to copy all the posts that he has made just during this build and post that info on a web site. I think I have learned more stuff just in the past few days reading this thread then I could have rereading all my books I have.

Since I am starting my new tank plan all over again, just a small one about 300 gallons, it is always nice to read these threads for new and old information again just to make sure that I get everything done right the first time, or at least try to.

One last thing, my wife loves your wife's garden. Her favorite line to me is if you want a new tank then I will need a much bigger garden to work in. Since I am on just under an acre lot now you can only guess how big of a garden she wants, more garden less lawn.

Look forward to your updates.

Cheers!!

Pat
I have about a jillion posts to answer but I thought I to take a quick minute to thank you for your kind words. I lived in Halifax for about six years as a kid......great place to grow up and develop a healthy taste for Lobster. The weather this year has been incredible here. Judy's garden is the best it has ever been in more than a decade. I will post a pic or two later in the season for the gardeners in the thread. Nice to have you join us Pat, welcome to the group.

Peter


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Old 06/16/2010, 02:45 PM   #2508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick F View Post
Hello Mr. Wilson,

I have a few questions that I have been pondering lately with my setup and would really enjoy your input. I have double 90 gallon setups plumbed into one sump that is partioned in multiple sections.
I have two protein skimmers running on the system purely out of curiousity to see if both units will run efficiently and remove skimmate (also I had a feeling the euroreef could not handle to overall volume of water). The setup has been running like this for six months (the system itself has been running for two years) I have to admit it seems rather confusing to me the feedback I have recieved from the system.
The two protein skimmers are a euroreef rs180 and a h&s recirculating skimmer with two aquabee 2000/lh. The h&s is being fed directly from the overflow and drained into a seperate compartment that the opposite 90 gallon is drained into. The euroreef is being fed the remaining overflow water from the opposite 90 gallon as well as any subsequent water that the recirc cannot handle due to it being valved to recieve approximately 200 gallons an hour.
Within the past few weeks after I noted your interesting article on ozone usage I decided that it would be entertaining to plug in the ozone unit again on this system since the orp reading from the meter was registering 240 - 260 on average. I also learned from your article about ozone that perhaps utilizing a air pump to feed ozone wasn't necessary so I am running the ozone currently connected to the air feed on one of the aqua bee pumps ( I am using all ozone safe parts and properly using carbon to reduce chance of ozone leaching into system and air).
Since I have hooked up ozone on this unit the skimmer seems to be removing more skimmate however it is significantly more of a yellow liquid and certainly less thick. The orp though is running 310-330 according to the orp meter and the water clarity has increased in my opinion. The ozone unit I am running is the Red Sea Aquazone 100mg/hr. I have it setup at 75% currently and would assume I should likely increase to 100% to raise the orp into the 350 range? Or do you feel I should hook up the air drier and air pump to more efficiently use the ozone unit. I understand that the orp reading is somewhat subjective and can been interpretted many different ways.

I suppose what I am asking from you is what is your opinion on my application of running ozone and should I augment it / change it and what do you think I should take away from the readings from my orp meter?
Do you think that the ozone is breaking down the organics too efficiently in the skimmer and that is the feedback I am getting with the colour of skimmate produced. I do understand that ozone usage through a protein skimmer is not the most efficient way to use ozone but I didn't really see many other options of application that I wanted to attempt.
As a side note could you suggest to me why the euroreef model has been running significantly more efficient than the h&s model for performance for over two years?
When I setup the two units to run together "against" each other I mentally wagered toward the h&s unit heavily due to its size and multiple pumps and indeed price point.

I am truly sorry to hijack your thread Peter but since all of this conversation of protein skimming and proper sump flow I just had to inquire about my own "experiences" that I am witnessing.


Patrick
I'm never going to be bothered with any communication that takes place in this thread that helps build our knowledge and appreciation for this hobby. Somehow we have managed to hold on to some excellent resources and with Mr. Wilson's mentoring I believe that this thread will continue to add value both to this build as well as the general well being of our growing community. I owe him a boat ride and I suspect that there will be a number of empty wine bottles littering Orlando on the long labour day weekend. As for the Bentley and Mr wilson, there's a special treat which I believe we can all share a wee bit down the road. Having said that there are also some mighty fine Australians who will earn their keep before the first fish graduate!!!! And there's an American or two deserving of a treat for their continuing support. Add Thailand and Norway to the list and we have the making of a true international perspective on this forum.

Peter


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Old 06/16/2010, 02:47 PM   #2509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biecacka View Post
one thing i really like about this thread is the abundance of knowledge being shared among fellow reefers! thanks guys!
corey
Thank You Corey and welcome to the group.

Peter


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Old 06/16/2010, 03:01 PM   #2510
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Peter - the tank is coming along spectacularly! I cant wait to see it in full bloom!

Great work so far...taking your time in this hobby leads to great things...enjoy the adventure my friend.


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Old 06/16/2010, 03:55 PM   #2511
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Short update.........

I have had 4 electricians tethered to the fish room for the whole day. One of the issues we uncovered was the gfi recepticals and the relationship to the switch boxes. You may remember that we have a toggle for every device in the fish room plus a few spare unalocated for Mr. Wilsons control fetish.

The goal with the two colours.....red for a live circuit and Green when it is being used by a device is that if there was a fault (which I know most of you willl never have had experience with) then I would not know it because the fault would occur after the switch box and the switch would still think the circuit was alive. So we decided to rewire the room (at ten times the cost) and put the GFI's on the panel. Now red means power is good, green means the circuit is being used and NO LIGHTS means there is a fault in the line, run for cover.......and keep your rubber boots on!!!!

We have also taken some time to review the procedures for a disaster test which will be done after the tank has been filled with fresh water. There are a number of routines or senerios to plan for so we wanted to craft an operations plan to be run once a month. The challange from my point of view was maintaining the discipline so that our standard operating procedures got updated with all downstream changes in archetecture that would occur in the future.

The fish room is starting to look really neat! I can honestly say that the fish room will be as interesting as the display tank itself and certainly as entertaining and educational I had hoped it would be from the begining.

Oh yeah the sink is in. The final plumbing bit will be to set the dedicated drain for the skimmer when we reload the fish room equipment on Monday.

The painting and caulking has been almost completed so the fish room should be ready for fit up by the weekend!!!!!!

At that point I will do a detailed photo walk through and answer all the questions on process flow that have been relatively guarded until now.

Peter


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Old 06/16/2010, 05:34 PM   #2512
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We are really going to get new pictures

I am as excited as I am shocked


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Old 06/16/2010, 07:05 PM   #2513
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Great work Peter!

Shawn
I didn't realize but Peter's RK2 skimmer actually has a nice cone transition on top. I am not crazy about the full cone as you loose volume compared to a cylinder with a cone on top .eg. There is no replacement for cubic inches eg 2.0liter Turbo 4 cylinder 200HP......add that turbo to a 3.0liter and you will always get more HP than the 4


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Old 06/16/2010, 07:32 PM   #2514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biecacka View Post
mr wilson i agree with the powerhead placement. i however have my tank drilled on back wall, so i have a tunze on one side blowing right then one on other side blowing left so it creates a race track type flow. any thoughts on that? one is higher on the glass than the other
corey
You have the right idea. Having one higher than the other is the way to go. The less friction the better, as one PH can cancel out another to a certain extent. The rock work will always be in the way, but that's why we are here.


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Old 06/16/2010, 08:02 PM   #2515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick F View Post
Hello Mr. Wilson,

I have a few questions that I have been pondering lately with my setup and would really enjoy your input. I have double 90 gallon setups plumbed into one sump that is partioned in multiple sections.
I have two protein skimmers running on the system purely out of curiousity to see if both units will run efficiently and remove skimmate (also I had a feeling the euroreef could not handle to overall volume of water). The setup has been running like this for six months (the system itself has been running for two years) I have to admit it seems rather confusing to me the feedback I have recieved from the system.
The two protein skimmers are a euroreef rs180 and a h&s recirculating skimmer with two aquabee 2000/lh. The h&s is being fed directly from the overflow and drained into a seperate compartment that the opposite 90 gallon is drained into. The euroreef is being fed the remaining overflow water from the opposite 90 gallon as well as any subsequent water that the recirc cannot handle due to it being valved to recieve approximately 200 gallons an hour.
Within the past few weeks after I noted your interesting article on ozone usage I decided that it would be entertaining to plug in the ozone unit again on this system since the orp reading from the meter was registering 240 - 260 on average. I also learned from your article about ozone that perhaps utilizing a air pump to feed ozone wasn't necessary so I am running the ozone currently connected to the air feed on one of the aqua bee pumps ( I am using all ozone safe parts and properly using carbon to reduce chance of ozone leaching into system and air).
Since I have hooked up ozone on this unit the skimmer seems to be removing more skimmate however it is significantly more of a yellow liquid and certainly less thick. The orp though is running 310-330 according to the orp meter and the water clarity has increased in my opinion. The ozone unit I am running is the Red Sea Aquazone 100mg/hr. I have it setup at 75% currently and would assume I should likely increase to 100% to raise the orp into the 350 range? Or do you feel I should hook up the air drier and air pump to more efficiently use the ozone unit. I understand that the orp reading is somewhat subjective and can been interpretted many different ways.

I suppose what I am asking from you is what is your opinion on my application of running ozone and should I augment it / change it and what do you think I should take away from the readings from my orp meter?
Do you think that the ozone is breaking down the organics too efficiently in the skimmer and that is the feedback I am getting with the colour of skimmate produced. I do understand that ozone usage through a protein skimmer is not the most efficient way to use ozone but I didn't really see many other options of application that I wanted to attempt.
As a side note could you suggest to me why the euroreef model has been running significantly more efficient than the h&s model for performance for over two years?
When I setup the two units to run together "against" each other I mentally wagered toward the h&s unit heavily due to its size and multiple pumps and indeed price point.

I am truly sorry to hijack your thread Peter but since all of this conversation of protein skimming and proper sump flow I just had to inquire about my own "experiences" that I am witnessing.


Patrick
Running two skimmers is always a fun exercise. May the best skimmer win, but having two gives you a back-up plan. If one is a little off, the other should pick up the slack. I also feel two small skimmers are more efficient than one big one. It's a bubble stability thing.

You should have no problem drawing air through the ozonizer with the skimmer air intake, but the added friction may diminish the total air draw somewhat. Ozone also decreases the stability of skimmer bubbles, but you make up for it with the high oxidization rate of o3 (ozone). This is why you are yielding a more yellow and less viscous (thick) skimmate. Having one skimmer with ozone and one without will be a distinct benefit for you. Each skimmer has its specialty.

Yes ORP is a magic number that isn't always consistent with success or lack there of. Technically it is the waters ability to oxidize organics. It's kind of like our bodies cardiovascular fitness. A high ORP 350-400 will help biological filtration and speed the rate of assimilation of "bad stuff" (organic waste).

I would certainly try an air pump and air drier. Buy an oversized drier or two of them to aid in maintenance. There are reports of nitric acid forming in ozonizers that process damp air, but I don't fully comprehend the repercussions myself.

As ozone kills microorganisms and breaks down organic matter it is easily picked up in the skimmer bubbles as these molecules are strongly hydrophobic (attracted to air & repelled by water).

I can't comment on why one skimmer appeared to outperform the other, but you can't judge the outcome by what you see in the collection cup with the naked eye. Ken Feldman developed a protein skimmer testing method using bovine serum. He concluded that any skimmer can remove 75% of the available protein and no more. He also concluded that skimmers are limited to removing only 20% of the TOC (total organic carbon, bith particulate and dissolved). http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

With this knowledge one is forced to ask "does it really matter?". Knowing that we hit the ceiling with protein skimmer abilities 15 years ago, we must turn our focus to other methods of filtration. New skimmers get the job done quicker, more consistently, and with foamier looking foam, but we haven't really moved forward.


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Old 06/16/2010, 08:12 PM   #2516
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Great work Peter!

Shawn
I didn't realize but Peter's RK2 skimmer actually has a nice cone transition on top. I am not crazy about the full cone as you loose volume compared to a cylinder with a cone on top .eg. There is no replacement for cubic inches eg 2.0liter Turbo 4 cylinder 200HP......add that turbo to a 3.0liter and you will always get more HP than the 4
Peter's skimmer wins the cubic inches contest hands down. It isn't one of these sissy European metric 3.0 litres. It's a 454 cubic inch big block rat, bored .60 over with a blower, no elegant turbo. Emptying the skimmer qualifies as a water change.

The venturi valve bubble maker is an older technology that has been left behind, but it will perform well stock. I would run it for a few months to get an idea of how it performs, then jack it up on blocks on the front lawn and put in an ATB or Sequence needlewheel pump. The latter will keep it American made.


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Old 06/16/2010, 08:39 PM   #2517
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Peter, your electrical system goes well beyond my comprehension in sophistication and detail. For the kids following allowing, here are a few low-tech tips...

Try to use independent GFCIs so one failure doesn't take down the whole system. It's a tempting shortcut to daisy chain two or three outlets off of a GFCI to save some money, but this exposes you to more peril.

Some GFCIs have very sensitive reset/test buttons. AC adapters can put pressure on these switches and cause a false trip. Add a 6" mini grounded extension cord with an illuminated base plug. This will let you orient your AC adapter ant direction you want without blocking the other outlets or tripping the GFCI. The lighted plug makes it clear if the outlet is on. GFCIs have a tiny green light but they are difficult to see in daylight, aquarium light, or when blocked by plugs & wires.

Use a drip loop on any cords that run above the outlet. A drip loop is a loop tied in the cord with a cable tie to provide a low point for water to drip off so it doesn't run straight down the cord and into the outlet.

Strap powerbars down to the aquarium stand legs with cable ties so they can't fall in the sump or become dislodged when you yank the cords. Labeling the cords and or outlets save you some headache wile looking at the octopus of wires.

Try to run the return pump on a separate circuit from the closed loop or powerheads. This way you always have water movement if just one circuit trips.

Outdoor timers give you added humidity resistance and splash resilience. I use battery backed up digital ones with remote controls so the aquarist doesn't have to even know where the timer is, much less start pushing buttons randomly.

Disable any wall switches that affect the tank. You never know when the cleaning lady will turn off your return pump accidentally.

Use cable ties and wire covers to bundle up and organize wiring. make it so a device can be unplugged and removed without tearing the place apart. I use plastic C clips to affix wires to the wall, but I leave the C open (like a U) so the wire can be removed easily.

Use a titanium grounding probe in the display tank and the sump.

Set up a back-up system with a deep charge marine battery and auto activate/charging system. Something like this http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1826657


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Old 06/16/2010, 08:55 PM   #2518
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I owe him a boat ride and I suspect that there will be a number of empty wine bottles littering Orlando on the long labour day weekend.
Peter
I didn't think about that possibility. I'll cash in my free ride in Miami instead of the Oakville Marina. Can I fly the helicopter once you get it off of the deck?


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Old 06/16/2010, 09:15 PM   #2519
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Here goes the photo upload attempt...

http://gallery.me.com/mr.wilson1#100...&bgcolor=black

I guess I need to do some more homework, but at least the link works.



Last edited by mr.wilson; 06/16/2010 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 06/16/2010, 09:57 PM   #2520
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Living the dream!


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Old 06/17/2010, 06:57 AM   #2521
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Okay now I feel stupid. I tried everything but the stamp of the mountains button to get that pic up, and yes someone had to PM me to tell me how




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Old 06/17/2010, 10:06 AM   #2522
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Mr. Wilson: on your diagram the input of the skimmer is fed by gravity while the output is fed by the skimmer pump, the input and output are in different reservoirs so they must be balanced to avoid either overflowing the input reservoir (too much input flow) or running the input reservoir dry (too much output flow)?


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Old 06/17/2010, 10:07 AM   #2523
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Mr Wilson, I'm presuming that the length of that emergency overflow is ratio between the volume of water between the normal and the emergency overflows, and the normal volume of the sump? its only going to come into affect if you close the control valve, but leave the return pump running, AND the float switch jams?


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Old 06/17/2010, 01:10 PM   #2524
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mr wilson i have pillars in my tank of my rock work mostly in the center of the tank. that way in theory there is less to break up the direct flow of the tunze's
corey


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Old 06/17/2010, 04:00 PM   #2525
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At that point I will do a detailed photo walk through and answer all the questions on process flow that have been relatively guarded until now.

Peter
I will admit I normally just follow build threads to see the progress pictures...(Hint, Hint)

However, having read EVERY post in this thread so far I have learned a lot about doing a large scale build project like this. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to contribute all the useful information.



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