Ph question

[ryeguyy84]

Everything in my tank appears healthy but growth is non-existent in my Sps coral. I think ph may have something to do with it.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1347108099.986109.jpg

That is a typical ph day for me, should I try and raise it to 8 or is this an acceptable range?

[downbeach]

Originally Posted by ryeguyy84

Everything in my tank appears healthy but growth is non-existent in my Sps coral. I think ph may have something to do with it.

Attachment 202736

That is a typical ph day for me, should I try and raise it to 8 or is this an acceptable range?

I can't open your file, but I'll bet you've got slightly elevated levels of CO2 in the house in this heat with the house being all closed up. You should be able to open some windows tonight after this storm front goes through.

Edit: Well, something just made me a liar???

Also, when was the last time you checked/calibrated your probe?

[ryeguyy84]

Originally Posted by downbeach

Also, when was the last time you checked/calibrated your probe?

You are most likely correct about the co2 in the house, its to hot out. I calibrated the probe last week. If anything it's stable right haha.

You can see the lights come on at 12:30 and go off at 8:30.

I'm thinking of adding a little kalkwasser to my topoff.

[disc1]

What are your other parameters?

[ryeguyy84]

Alk: 8.7. Red sea
Cal: 460 red sea
N03: 5 Salfert
Phosphate: .06 Hanna
Mg I didn't check, had to run out
Temp 78.3

All looks good to me

[disc1]

In that case I'm voting with the rest. The culprit is most likely dissolved CO2. Get some fresh air into the tank and see if it rises.

To prove it to yourself, take a cup of water outside and aerate it for a little while then check it again. If it comes up then that is definitely the problem.

[Vince272992]

that could be the issue, that is very low, its ussually supposed to be at 8.3 wht are your CAL, and ALK at...

[swcc]

Originally Posted by ryeguyy84

Alk: 8.7. Red sea
Cal: 460 red sea
N03: 5 Salfert
Phosphate: .06 Hanna
Mg I didn't check, had to run out
Temp 78.3

All looks good to me

Looks like too much cal and low alk to me....
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

the skinny on the elevated co2 in the home is this...lower your cal to the 410 to 420 range and get the alk to 9.5 -11 dKH and you'll more than likely stabilize to 8.0 to 8.2ph. Alk raised above NSW levels(balanced with cal) raises PH... ultimately you actually have low alk and high cal compared to NSW and that drives PH down when home co2 is above atmospheric co2 levels.
good ole instant ocean salt runs perfect cal/alk/mag parameters at 1.025-1.0265 sal. for reef keeping in an air conditioned home.

[disc1]

That's not low vs. natural seawater. Natural seawater has an alkalinity around 7dkH.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.php

Here's a good read-up on calcium and alkalinity.

[bertoni]

I agree that the numbers are fine. Most likely the problem is carbon dioxide in the air. It's quick and easy to check the water surface for oily films, and give the skimmer a quick check and possible cleaning of the air input, though. Sometimes, but not often, those steps help.

[ryeguyy84]

Also I run biopellets, so I try to maintain a lower alk

[downbeach]

I think you'll see that it improves now that you can open some windows. You could also try to tweek the air input to the skimmer, even if it runs a little wet.

[ryeguyy84]

I opened a window.



It seems to keep stable but at a higher level.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by disc1

That's not low vs. natural seawater. Natural seawater has an alkalinity around 7dkH.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.php

Here's a good read-up on calcium and alkalinity.

That is the same link I provided....
In the article you notice 460 cal has an NSW balanced alk of 5.0 meq/L which is 14dKh... thus the OP's alk of 8.7dKH to 460 cal is very low alk to cal balance... 8.7 dKh is NSW balanced with 420 cal as per the link both you and I provided...
To raise PH your raise your alk and it is not total alk it is the ratio of alk to cal...
With elevated co2 in the home you raise alk above NSW alk/cal balance and the ph will go up....it works as per the second article I provided...
Red sea does this with their salt mixes and so does regular instant ocean... the provide alk above NSW balance to keep PH up in a closed marine system....

Yes elevated atmospharic co2 is a problem...but it is also a prolem that his alk is too low for his calcium...
The OP can open a window and provide lower co2 levels in his home to raise PH some, he can run his skimmer line to draw air from outside the home to lower PH some or he can do the simplest thing which is rebalance his cal and alk to combat the elevate co2 in his home and get a higher elevated PH over venting outside...no wasted electricity cooling his home with an open window and no skimmer air loss running an extra long air line to draw from outside(friction from tubing will decrease air draw).

[disc1]

The part of the link you are reading discussed artificial seawater, not natural seawater. The water in the ocean on the natural reef is quite low on alk compared to what we run our tanks at. It is around 6.5 to 7.5 dkH.

[disc1]

I also hate to break it to you but calcium doesn't affect pH. That just chemically makes zero sense.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by swcc

That is the same link I provided....
In the article you notice 460 cal has an NSW balanced alk of 5.0 meq/L which is 14dKh... thus the OP's alk of 8.7dKH to 460 cal is very low alk to cal balance... 8.7 dKh is NSW balanced with 420 cal as per the link both you and I provided...
To raise PH your raise your alk and it is not total alk it is the ratio of alk to cal...
With elevated co2 in the home you raise alk above NSW alk/cal balance and the ph will go up....it works as per the second article I provided...
Red sea does this with their salt mixes and so does regular instant ocean... the provide alk above NSW balance to keep PH up in a closed marine system....

Yes elevated atmospharic co2 is a problem...but it is also a prolem that his alk is too low for his calcium...
The OP can open a window and provide lower co2 levels in his home to raise PH some, he can run his skimmer line to draw air from outside the home to lower PH some or he can do the simplest thing which is rebalance his cal and alk to combat the elevate co2 in his home and get a higher elevated PH over venting outside...no wasted electricity cooling his home with an open window and no skimmer air loss running an extra long air line to draw from outside(friction from tubing will decrease air draw).

That's just wrong and utimately harmful to a reef tank.
As Dave explained. The balances and zones are really meaningless beyond illustrative effect and are being misundesrstood and misused in your accounting.



Keeping the:
alk : 7 to11dkh
calcium: over 380ppm
And. magensium over 1350 and below 1500 ,

is all you need to do.

Trying to precisely match alk and calcium is of no benefit ,whatsoever.
Raising alk to raise ph is a very poor strategy unless your alk is below range or your preference point to start with. Adding alk( Carbonate buffers) does raise ph temporarily but it's effect on ph is brief as more CO2 enters the water fro m the air leving high alk and low ph.

Calcium has nothing to do with ph.

Relatively, high or low Ph is a function CO2 levels in our tanks . Alkalinity buffers ph swings in one direction or another and the carbonate in alkalinity is used by calcifying organisms along with calcium as they bioticalyy precipitate calcium carbonate,skeletogenisis.

The 8.7 alk and 470 ppm calcium are very fine. I'd be happy with them.

The 7.8 ph is ok but marginal, imo.

FWIW, I run ,my sps dominant mixed reef at alk 9.3 and caclium around 470ppm with magnesium round 1400ppm and have for almost 4 years.

I also dose organic carbon ; I use vodka and vinegar and prefer these soluble organic carbon sources stongly to the polymer pellets. Either way there is no need to keep alk low which would slow growth. Lower vs higher alk will likely have more of an effect on growth than ph as long as that ph is 7.8 or higher.

I keep my ph at a low of 8.1 and a high of 8.35 diurnal swing. Some reefs have greater swings than that. Dosing organic carbon will decrease ph. In my case about 0.15. I got it back up with a CO2 scrubber. Dosing kalk in lieu of two part calcium and alk supplements can raise it too as the oxide in the calcium hydroxide( kalk) uses CO2 to form carbonate alkalinity.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by disc1

I also hate to break it to you but calcium doesn't affect pH. That just chemically makes zero sense.

my tank in my closed up Florida home...
previous: cal440 alk 9.5....PH 7.8 to 7.9
current for months now: cal 410 alk 9.5....PH 8.1-8.2
while neither PH level I recorded is of any true concern, I read Randy's articles on reef chemisty, Ph, etc.. to suggest that elevating my Alk above the cal/alk balance found in NSW would have an up tick on PH with my home having elevated co2 above that found in the atmosphere.
Tried it... it worked in my case and my PH went up and I just keep my levels there.

[disc1]

Yeah, if you raised the alkalinity and caught the equilibrium there. pH is a function of CO2 and alkalinity. I thought it was saying to adjust calcium and it would fix it. Maybe I misread, but adjusting calcium alone won't do anything to pH.

[downbeach]

You might also find it beneficial to add some Kalkwasser to your top off water, about 1 tsp. for each gallon of RO/DI water. I would recommend Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime, it's food grade and cheaper than most "marine" offerings.

[ryeguyy84]

Tmz, when I started pellets my alk was around 10.5 and I had what I thought was alk burn on the tips of some Sps coral. Ever since I lowered the alk the burning has stopped but growth slowed or stopped.

As for the PH I think that's better since I opened the window. It feels like fall in here.



I'm going to try and slowly bring up my alk to 9 or 9.5 and see what happens.

[tmz]

Can't do that open window stuff much longer in Buffalo. 10 dkh might be too high for your tank or the tip burn may have been an early reaction to clearer water and more light ,reduced nutrients , monomers from the pellets or something else. For me the 8.9 to 9.6 works fine. I don't wan't to risk going lower not jus t for growth but I'm uncomfortable skating the low end edge of the range. SPs react bvery badly when it drops into the sixes.

[tmz]

I don't think 8.7 is low by any means. It might be right for your tank. I'd tinker with it very carefully and wouldn't expect to see much extra growth going to say 9.3. I'd also try to drop the PO4 from .06 to .03 or less . I know that's going to be imprecise given the accuracy limits of testing and monitoring equipment but .06 is a little on the high side in terms of limiting nuisance algae.