Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[sensei]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Thanks Jorge! I generally went with 12 months... which, considering my mh were only on for like 5 hours a day, was probably earlier than necessary... I do this with my t5 as well..
I was originally using radium 150w de but I couldn’t get those anymore, so started using ushio blue.
Personally I believe that not enough herbivores and poor water conditions are what cause hair algea.. when a system is in balance with proper algea consumers/controllers, I don’t think the lght source makes all that much difference..
Now, having said that, if you look at all the latest fuge lights coming out on the market, they are all red spectrum light sources, so clearly that spectrum, which is devoid of blue (blue being the spectrum that burns out first in mh and t5 bulbs) it is clear that red area of the spectrum will help algea grow..
so technically, if water/system conditions are good for algea growth, old bulbs may help it take over but if the system is well balanced, I don’t think old bulbs contribute much to algea growth...
But algea growth shouldn’t be the motivation for changing bulbs, giving the corals proper, full spectrum, should be the motivation..

Thanks for your answer Matt
One.more.questiion
*
I just changed my halide radium blue bulbs and I noticed that 2 of the 5 new bulbs are giving a different color. 3 of them have the blueish look but the other two look more white.
Have you noticed color differences in new bulbs back when you used halides??

not sure if this is normal?? not sure if color will be more similar after them to burn a few days ?

Thanks again

[sensei]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Nice to hear from you Jorge. How is the Tank doing. Still running a Frag Tank, etc.

When I upgraded to my new Tank, I dropped my OLD MH Fixture (Zero Regrets).
Best thing I ever did was going ALL T5 for main lighting. (with complimentary LEDs for Blue/Actinic)
For T5's: Dimmable on 2 Pairs of 54W, and 1 39W, with One Pair 54W not dimmable. (Blue Plus, Coral Plus mix, with 1 Purple Plus)

1 year on T5's is a good change period. Easy to remember and always falls on Boxing day for some better prices.

I used to try to change my T5's every 8 Months on my other tank.

No more....after seeing this BRS Video on how Long T5's actually last (photo Intensity and Color shift)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3F-vpHsiH0

Hello Wally,
I have seen your sps tank doing some good progress... well done!

It has been difficult for me to have success in main dt. It has been a lot of things, but I have been fixing one by one. If it was not for Ed advices I would be completly lost. I can certanly say I have learned a lot and I feel I am close now.

I know T5 are a good choice but in my country nobody sells those bulbs and I need a special permit to import those, so it is easier to bring halide bulbs in my luggage when I travel.
Best regards

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by sensei

Thanks for your answer Matt
One.more.questiion
*
I just changed my halide radium blue bulbs and I noticed that 2 of the 5 new bulbs are giving a different color. 3 of them have the blueish look but the other two look more white.
Have you noticed color differences in new bulbs back when you used halides??

not sure if this is normal?? not sure if color will be more similar after them to burn a few days ?

Thanks again

I have noticed slight color differences in new bulbs... I really don’t know if it is normal or not.. it is frustrating..
If they were mine, I’d just put the two whiter bulbs in between the three bluer ones..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Interesting you mention that.

After I stopped the Negatively affecting PhosGuard for P reduction.....

I wanted something for N&P control (outside of Algae Scrubber, which wasn't enough)....

I did look into NoPox but read too many negative stories (even though you mentioned it's the Users Use not the product).

So a couple of weeks ago I started AquaForest (BioS Pro + -NPpro).

Nothing drastic is happening, but it will take time, and I am being patient.

That’s a good combo. I found them to work well but more slowly than products like nopox or vodka etc..

[sensei]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

I have noticed slight color differences in new bulbs... I really don’t know if it is normal or not.. it is frustrating..
If they were mine, I’d just put the two whiter bulbs in between the three bluer ones..

Thanks, That is exactly what I did.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

That’s a good combo. I found them to work well but more slowly than products like nopox or vodka etc..

Hey Matt,

So I tried the AquaForest NP/BioS for a while. Seems like with my Load and recommended dosing, it's not working that great. Maybe keeping my P lower then where it would go.

So I stopped Feeding Corals period for a couple of weeks (Still doing Light dose of Aminos). Better, but still not where I want my P to get to (around 0.1).

I then looked at my logs, and compared with Photo's at same time. When I was using PhosGuard and getting P to close to that 0.1 things were better. Much better, and then when P rose, things dwindled.

So I put back my Reactor with PhosGuard on low flow. Threw in GFO in a baggie in Sump in Low Flow Area.

Slowly P dropped from .39 to 0.35 to 0.25, and still dropping (slowly).

Things look better. A couple of damaged Frags that I felt I was going to loose are showing signs of recovery.
The Majority of Frags that were doing fine, are still doing fine.

The reason for this post is some Folks convinced me that P, even as high as 0.4 is fine, if stable. Corals will adapt.

I don't believe that anymore from Evidence. My observations are when P is high, coral grow is retarded. Even if you don't need speed-growth, good grow is needed for Encrustment of new Frags, and quick recovery on SPS if they experience a brief negative hit.

You posted above that your couldn't get P down, and like me started using GFO (reactor & baggies) to get it under control.

Would you agree that P at or just below 0.1 is critical for Coral Success.
Specifically in my Tank which is 100% SPS Frags.

[Mike de Leon]

nice to see your thread still kicking some arse!!

[FloformAustria]

Wow Matt!
Your tank is still looking amazing
Loving it

Cheers

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Mike de Leon

nice to see your thread still kicking some arse!!

Originally Posted by FloformAustria

Wow Matt!
Your tank is still looking amazing
Loving it

Cheers

Mike, Flo- thanks! Still hanging in there! Transitioning to a new reef keeping framework is slow.. but it’s coming along.
Hopefully I’ll have some new photos soon!

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Hey Matt,

So I tried the AquaForest NP/BioS for a while. Seems like with my Load and recommended dosing, it's not working that great. Maybe keeping my P lower then where it would go.

So I stopped Feeding Corals period for a couple of weeks (Still doing Light dose of Aminos). Better, but still not where I want my P to get to (around 0.1).

I then looked at my logs, and compared with Photo's at same time. When I was using PhosGuard and getting P to close to that 0.1 things were better. Much better, and then when P rose, things dwindled.

So I put back my Reactor with PhosGuard on low flow. Threw in GFO in a baggie in Sump in Low Flow Area.

Slowly P dropped from .39 to 0.35 to 0.25, and still dropping (slowly).

Things look better. A couple of damaged Frags that I felt I was going to loose are showing signs of recovery.
The Majority of Frags that were doing fine, are still doing fine.

The reason for this post is some Folks convinced me that P, even as high as 0.4 is fine, if stable. Corals will adapt.

I don't believe that anymore from Evidence. My observations are when P is high, coral grow is retarded. Even if you don't need speed-growth, good grow is needed for Encrustment of new Frags, and quick recovery on SPS if they experience a brief negative hit.

You posted above that your couldn't get P down, and like me started using GFO (reactor & baggies) to get it under control.

Would you agree that P at or just below 0.1 is critical for Coral Success.
Specifically in my Tank which is 100% SPS Frags.

Hey Wally, this is probably one of the most hotly debated subjects in modern reefkeeping!
My short answer is no, I do not feel that po4 at or just around .1 is CRITICAL for coral success..
is it a range where one’s chances are improved for general success? I would say yes to this..
If you go back in this thread and look at just about any of the million photos, you will be looking at corals that were growing and looking pretty good (for the most part) in water with a po4 of between .1 and .25.
One can look around at so many stunning reef tanks these days and some will have higher nutrients (I’d say n above 10ppm and p above .1) and some will have lower nutrients and some will have ultra low..
so, I would agree that corals are highly adaptable and stability is probably more important than actual numbers (within a certain window of acceptable parameters, I suppose). Long term true 0 is obviously not good.. we see tons of tanks with pale, sickly and stunted corals in true 0 nutrients.. but once nutrients are detectable, and depending on trace element/vitamin/amino/food additions, corals can really thrive.
I certainly think that nutrients in and around the 4ppm n and .04 ppm po4 up to 10 or even a bit higher than 10ppm n and .1 ppm po4 is probably the sweet spot.
There is also much discussion about the sweetspot ratio of 100/1 ratio of n to p. I’ve never been able to keep this relationship long enough to really see if it is truly beneficial or not but I have read Big E talk about it a lot and even site stats on previous totms and having this ratio..
So, I think that in your case, if your system tends to naturally run high in nutrients, fighting, at all costs, to drop them will probably end in frustration. However, I really like your attitude of attempting to keep a lid on nutrients but not battle them down to nothing.
No matter what our intentions are for our tanks, Mother Nature often has other intentions and I’ve learned that Mother Nature usually gets her way.
Your measured approach will pay off I think.
I may consider trying phosguard in my system since it’s less aggressive than gfo and easier to deal with... my only concern is how dusty it is and the potential for an accumulation of aluminum in the system from extensive use.

[Alexcyf]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Ok these shot with my macro lens..
some tenuis..


DARTH!!!


A tort and a planet..


Aussie stag.. growing slowly.


Closer..


This is supposed to be confetti.. right now it’s just tiny..


Recently, things are fairly stable.. p has been right around .07 with heavy rowa phos use. Alk has been steady at right around 7.. p has been climbed to 25ppm.. even with the use of a carbon source.. which was keeping it lower and then inexplicable, it climbed but stopped at 25. I’ve been very slowly increasing the Fauna Marin Bak.. taking it slow..
I started using Fauna’s color elements as well..
Some thing continue to color up, some sit there dormant and many are growing..
I’m not unhappy with the tank.. not blown away yet..

Lovely shots!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Alexcyf

Lovely shots!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks!

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

I may consider trying phosguard in my system since it’s less aggressive than gfo and easier to deal with... my only concern is how dusty it is and the potential for an accumulation of aluminum in the system from extensive use.

Thanks for the feedback Matt. You insight and wisdom is always appreciated.

Here is something on your one comment about PhosGuard and Alluminum.

I just did an ICP test on my Fairly new Tank.

This was done AFTER using PhosGuard (6-8 weeks) and then Stopping.



Interesting that AL (Aluminum) picked up in Toxic Heavy Metals. Along with Copper and Tin.

Nothing Critically High, but still there. Could have come from other sources, like my old MarinePure, Media etc.

I ran some CupriSorb for a while, which does remove Copper and other Heavy metals like Tin and Alluminum.

I will do another ICP test in a few months, after a more extensive PhosGuard Use period.

BTW. I guess you know, that Triton ICP tests in Canada are now done in Quebec, not Germany, so results come super fast.
Mailing address for Sample was Quebec (so I assumed done also). Result came back in 2 weeks.

[reefmutt]

That’s very interesting Wally. Thanks for the numbers. This is what’s holding me back from phosguard. I suppose you can wash it like crazy but then you’ve reduced its capacity somewhat..
Not sure the triton icp is actually done in Quebec, but the company that distributes Triton, collects the water samples and delivers them is. I think they still go to the states for actual testing... I’ll verify that.

[i2ik]

Your tank never ceased to amazed me Matt! This thread gave me much inspiration!

[ReefWreak]

I'm loving the discussion about nutrients and trace. I'm personally quite frustrated at how quickly my trace nutrients get depleted in my tank (despite not much coral growth, and mostly frags; I started with dry rock and bacteria, this tank is the slowest tank to maturity I've ever had, by probably 8 months to a year). I'm dosing trace now (based on Triton results) and seeing improvements directly related to the tracing dosing, but I'm just generally really frustrated that the old adage was "keep nutrients in check, water changes or not, stability will bring success", and I'm personally really struggling with keeping stability without frequent water changes and dosing and other things that are expensive and technically complex.

I guess the "new" theory of moderate nutrient load is in that boat too, that people are pushing for higher nutrients these days to promote growth and color. I guess back in the day with less flow and less efficient equipment, there was always higher nutrients around as a rule, and along with that was probably higher trace elements from food impurity?

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Not sure the triton icp is actually done in Quebec, but the company that distributes Triton, collects the water samples and delivers them is. I think they still go to the states for actual testing... I’ll verify that.

I think all of the ICP testing is still done in Germany. For my (and my friend's as well) ICP tests in the states with Triton, we send them to California, and then when they arrive there, we get a notification that they're being bundled and sent to Germany so we should have results soon. So I think they still only have one lab (ICP machines have high start-up and operating costs), and forward all of the tests from around the world there.

[nemodan]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Hey Guys, I figured I’d do a small update.. kind of half arsed phot wise since it’s a mix of iPhone pics and real camera pics..
here are the iPhone ones first.. as we know iphone over saturates everything. I tried to reduce the saturation a bit..
Here’s an fts for starters..

Top downs..






A little closer of that awesome hyacinthus..


And here’s my OP..


Next some real photos.. with real camera a few close ups..

As always.... I am speechless with your pictures and your tank.

Best
Daniel

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by i2ik

Your tank never ceased to amazed me Matt! This thread gave me much inspiration!

Originally Posted by nemodan

As always.... I am speechless with your pictures and your tank.

Best
Daniel

Richard, Daniel, thanks! I really appreciate the positive words.
I’ve been really lax in the boards lately..
I’m going to to my best to get some new pics up..
I’ve done another round of pulling out big stuff and replanting with frags.. some good growth and some ok..
I’ve added reefbrites to the mix and I really live the pop they provide... I am slowly moving towards the blue reef ... still have a couple of coral plus to warm it up for mid day lighting but still more blue than I’ve ever had my reef before..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by ReefWreak

I'm loving the discussion about nutrients and trace. I'm personally quite frustrated at how quickly my trace nutrients get depleted in my tank (despite not much coral growth, and mostly frags; I started with dry rock and bacteria, this tank is the slowest tank to maturity I've ever had, by probably 8 months to a year). I'm dosing trace now (based on Triton results) and seeing improvements directly related to the tracing dosing, but I'm just generally really frustrated that the old adage was "keep nutrients in check, water changes or not, stability will bring success", and I'm personally really struggling with keeping stability without frequent water changes and dosing and other things that are expensive and technically complex.

I guess the "new" theory of moderate nutrient load is in that boat too, that people are pushing for higher nutrients these days to promote growth and color. I guess back in the day with less flow and less efficient equipment, there was always higher nutrients around as a rule, and along with that was probably higher trace elements from food impurity?



I think all of the ICP testing is still done in Germany. For my (and my friend's as well) ICP tests in the states with Triton, we send them to California, and then when they arrive there, we get a notification that they're being bundled and sent to Germany so we should have results soon. So I think they still only have one lab (ICP machines have high start-up and operating costs), and forward all of the tests from around the world there.

I had intended to respond to this sooner but, as usual, I got side tracked.
The whole trace elements industry is a bit confounding.. I see fantastic tanks, like Big E’s tank that don't use any trace elements. There are plenty others out there as well.. I’ve also seen plenty of tanks that weren’t doing well, do much better with trace element additions.
My old tank which was a 500 gallon system with a huge ca reactor did amazingly well without any additions. And infrequent water changes. It was loaded with large colonies.. mostly wild.
Never added anything.. but I pulled it down when I had to renovate and maybe I was 2 weeks away from a crash.. who knows.
My current tank gets a good amount of automatic trace element dosing.. still USA a ca reactor.
Keep in mind that if you are dosing two part- unless you are mixing your own basic solutions, you are adding some trace elements. All the ca components from the big makers of two part solutions have some trace elements added.
I get the frustration with having to add this and that- that’s why I went with dosers for my carbon source and trace elements. Makes life much easier.. I even went to flake/pellet food only and put it in a timer so I don’t have to add food either.
Icp test are indeed all sent to Germany. In Canada, They are collected here in montreal (or north of montreal) and then shipped weekly to Germany.
My last icp test showed I was low in magnesium and strontium in particular and then slightly low in many of the elements that algea would consume- iodine, iron, potassium zinc, manganese and a couple others.. I decided to reduce the photoperiod on my cheato based on this.. I’m not sure if my reasoning is sound because I assume corals use many of the same elements as plants.. we’ll see.. I’m gonna do another icp soon..
Starting a new tank from frags is tough.. balancing nutrients as the tank matures and as you add corals and fish is tricky.
My tank at home has always had high nutrients and I find that is I really push to drop them to ultra low levels, the corals really suffer but I take care of a tank that started off with a nutrient reducing carbon source and has always had one. If I try to get nutrient off the floor in that tank, it goes wild with nuisance algea and corals suffer... so.... go figure!!
I think it all goes to show how adaptable the corals are and yet still fragile and sensitive to parameter swings that are outside of their adaptation ‘window’..
My current target for n and p is n- around 5-10 and p .05-.08..
I’m still not sure I like my colors now more than I did when I had 20-30 ppm for n and .12-.22 for p.. HOWEVER, back then I was using MH, now I’m using led and t5..
I am forever tempted to go back to mh.. but that’s a whole other issue..

So here’s a teaser shot from my tank. It’s a fish eye lens view top down centre..
I’ll post more shots in a bit.. finally got the real camera out..

[reefmutt]

Latest fts:


I’ve been pulling colonies again and adding frags..
Some random top downs..





And a fish eye fts just for fun..
I’ll post some closer shots in the next post.

[reefmutt]

Some closer shots..




















Macros next.

[reefmutt]

Ok! Last bunch.. macros..





















There! Done....

[mhucasey]

The deepwater acros, in particular, are very very nice! Lots of color variety in the tank in general, well done!

[tripdad]

Everything is looking spectacular Matt! Nice to see some new pics, thanks, I always enjoy your thread.

[Sam2832]

Still nice!


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