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Unread 02/10/2018, 12:10 AM   #3251
Michael Hoaster
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Duly noted, Sam. Great suggestions. You've given me some good stuff to think about.

I agree with you to some extent, but having had the back wall both ways, I prefer it planted. Something's gonna grow there, so I might as well choose what. Also, while I'm playing with foam for the left end wall, I may try adding some foam to the top of the back wall to get more overhang. Done right, the overhang will cast a shadow over the bottom half of the wall, allowing the grasses to pop visually.

You do have a good point about not using green, but I actually want a lot of green. I envision lots of different greens and different textures and lights and shadows. The overall look will be a sea of green, with a splash of red. Kind of like a fresh water planted tank. I do hope to feature the grasses.

That is a nice worm! I'm hoping to keep mine through the re-do. I've been thinking about how to move them without moving the nems.


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Unread 02/10/2018, 12:19 AM   #3252
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/10/2018, 05:15 AM   #3253
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Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Yes, Patrick, I've been re-reading the Marine Plant book a lot lately! I like several of the caulerpas, but I may avoid them this time around, to avoid the heavy pruning duty.

For the back wall, I am considering Maiden's Hair. It loves bright light, spreads out, and looks good in the current.

I agree on adaptability. My C. racemosa peltata likes shady areas, but it grew right up to the surface and pretty much everywhere else, at its peak. I'd still like to grow botryocladia at the right end of the tank, in dimmer light. I still have a few tiny remnants, but I doubt they'll survive the re-do. Another red I'd like to have is Dragon's Tongue. It too can grow pretty big. I tried one of the eBay frags, but it didn't make it.

My theory on macro frags is that they're too small - almost like a short fuse. I think you need a bigger plant to give it more time to adapt to your conditions and/or time for you to make changes to suit it. A smaller plant gives you less time for that to happen.
I stopped buying eBay macro frags. Too many hobbiest selling with not much quality control. Small pieces are stressed in shipping just as large pieces, but there is less to survive the transition.

With respect to photoadaptability, I have adjusted Red Tree Sponges & Yellow Ball Sponges to reef lighting. I still have to clean yellow ball sponges every few days with a toothbrush. The red tree sponges required cleaning every day for a month, but not anymore. With respect to Dragons Breath, I recommend the Pacific variety that is sometimes called Dragons Tongue, Halymenia dilatata.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/...=497+3752+3551

https://www.marineplantbook.com/mari...okredalgae.htm
I find the GOM variety too delicate.


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Unread 02/10/2018, 08:31 AM   #3254
Michael Hoaster
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I'd really like to try my hand at Halymenia Floresia. That's the one I've been looking for. Have you tried that one?


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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/11/2018, 05:29 AM   #3255
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I'd really like to try my hand at Halymenia Floresia. That's the one I've been looking for. Have you tried that one?
I have had all three of the GOM cultivar of Halymenia sprout from live rock. For various reasons, mostly eaten by herbivores, I have not had long term success. The Pacific variety, Halymenia dilatata, is tough and grows fast. At least a 5 fold increase per month. This cultivar is going to be my main product for ornamental
macro. At present, I have one inside tank dedicated to a tumble culture. By the first of April, I plan on at least two stand alone outside tanks dedicated to Dragons Tongue. It likes bright light.


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Unread 02/11/2018, 10:10 AM   #3256
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More to think about..

Do you still plan on keeping this a true Caribbean Biotope? If so, now is the time to get it right since you’re starting fresh. I remember you adding a few things here or there that weren’t Caribbean specific and eventually it started to bug you. Lol

With that in mind, are the macros you’re considering Caribbean?

Gonna fix the mangrove root??
I need something to read that doesn’t involve foliage. Haha


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Unread 02/11/2018, 01:14 PM   #3257
Michael Hoaster
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I have been thinking a lot about whether to keep it a true Caribbean biotope. I still haven't decided!

Right now I'm leaning towards picking fish, plants, etcetera based on their looks, function and suitability to the ecosystem in my tank, rather than biotope rules. But I do love biotopes! I'm just finding sticking to the rules tricky, when also trying to fill ecosystem niches in my tank. Bottom line, the ecosystem approach is more important to me than biotopes.

The problem I've run up against with keeping a Caribbean biotope is a lack of 'ideal' representatives of certain fish groups I want to keep. For example, I really wanted to do a school of Blue Reef Chromis. Unfortunately these fish are VERY susceptible to disease, so I've written them off. There are other chromis and damsels from the Caribbean but all are either ugly or mean, and usually both. I've found a nice substitute, Allen's Damsel, that's from Indonesia, that looks a lot like a blue chromis, but should be sturdier. This would seem to be an ideal solution, but not biotope-correct.

So yeah, more to think about.

I guess, given the above bottom line statement, I should consider starting a new thread that more accurately portrays what I'm trying to do. Thinking back, I really only decided my tank would be a biotope because all of the plants I wanted happened to be caribbean. The true focus has always been to see if it's possible to build an ecosystem in a box that is 'complete enough' to more or less take care of itself.

I thought I'd decided I didn't need to start a new thread! Now I'm wondering…

The few macros I'm considering so far are all caribbean, but honestly, if I found something I think would be perfect for my tank, I wouldn't care. I'm hoping to enlarge the seagrass' footprint and shrink the macros', so I won't need a large variety.

I do plan to fix the fake root. Hopefully it shouldn't be too difficult. I may paint it darker too. It has been a great decoration and substrate for various things, as well as an excellent, functioning 'prop' to hide a powerhead. I've really enjoyed having it!

Thanks again, Sam, for more thought-provoking thoughts!

The more I think about this project, the more I realize I need to give it more thought! With another trip next month, I'm thinking I may just spend this month doing more thinking, then get to work on it when I return.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/11/2018, 04:27 PM   #3258
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After 45 years of reefing, I have stayed away from strict bio types. Even though I favor a mixed garden macro lagoon, my focus has always been the ecosystem. Because I am a “laissez faire” reefkeeper, I want my system biology to function naturally as God designed nature to be, using Dynamic Equilibrium to maintain chemistry, biology and physics. We sometimes even have to excercise psychology & sociology with the inhabitants of our glass tanks.


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Unread 02/11/2018, 06:51 PM   #3259
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Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

I’m going to petition to get the thread re-titled “Caribbean-ish Biotope Seagrass Tank”

I’ll pass around a sheet for signatures. Lol


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Unread 02/11/2018, 11:20 PM   #3260
Michael Hoaster
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Yes Patrick, biotopes' restrictions can be a pain, but I have enjoyed the experience, and learned a lot. I will continue in a biotope vein, I just haven't decided how biotope-y. Like you, my focus is more on an ecosystem than a geographic area. It's a Seagrass Lagoon Biotope. They occur world-wide. Coincidently, most of the plants available to aquarists here in the US are from the Caribbean.

Sam, maybe I'll go with "Caribbean-ish, kinda Biotope". Ha!

So our tanks are two things; a model of a place in the sea, and a functioning ecosystem in a box. The high concept, and the trenches.

After contemplating my DSB and its creatures within, I have decided it's too risky to try to transfer my live sand to the new tank. So I'm going to need to capture said creatures and transfer them separately. Doesn't that sound fun? Worm and Pod Safari! Am I a weirdo?

Man, it's great to talk about this stuff! It helps me think it through. So I'll need some new sand to transfer the creatures and grasses into. Another piece of the puzzle…


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/12/2018, 12:35 AM   #3261
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Knowing you, you’re going to be sitting there with a magnifying glass and tweezers picking out every single worm and bug placing them into a petri dish! Haha
Better yet, one of them jewelers helmets with the different magnified lenses and a flashlight!
Sounds like a real pain in the balls, but a smart move to make sure nothing unwanted gets in there!

Just add a question mark at the end for the ultimate in broad vagueness. lol Keep everyone guessing!

“Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank?”


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Unread 02/12/2018, 05:55 AM   #3262
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Michael,

I don’t remember the details, but don’t you have a type of a cryptic zone in your present tank? I would definitely encourage cryptic sponges in my ecosystem.


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Unread 02/12/2018, 06:05 AM   #3263
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Knowing you, you’re going to be sitting there with a magnifying glass and tweezers picking out every single worm and bug placing them into a petri dish! Haha
Better yet, one of them jewelers helmets with the different magnified lenses and a flashlight!
Sounds like a real pain in the balls, but a smart move to make sure nothing unwanted gets in there!

Just add a question mark at the end for the ultimate in broad vagueness. lol Keep everyone guessing!

“Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank?”

Sam,
For certain, you made me laugh and remember my first step into biodiversity. I had just received a shipment from IPSF in Hawaii. Following the directions, I went into an unlit closet and proceeded to shine lights thru water in bags. First, with a white background, then with a black background. I was 10 minutes into the process when my wife entered the unlit master bedroom closet, to find me peeping into the “little peoples” world.


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Unread 02/12/2018, 07:54 AM   #3264
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I’m going to petition to get the thread re-titled “Caribbean-ish Biotope Seagrass Tank”

I’ll pass around a sheet for signatures. Lol
That is why my thread is just called 'garden'. It gives me room to change my mind. Of course I am in yrouble if I stop keeping seahorses, ha ha!


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Unread 02/12/2018, 10:55 AM   #3265
Michael Hoaster
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That's actually not a bad idea, Sam. Hands-free magnification would be very helpful. This brings me to the "how am I going to do this?" question. I think tweezers might be too hard and sharp. When I pulled a bunch out of my QT, I did it by hand, and that seemed to work well. The trick will be to locate them visually, and then get my hand to the right spot, which isn't easy in a 30 inch deep tank. Maybe lowering the water level would help. I'll try not to get too obsessive-compulsive. I don't need to get all of them. I'll be purchasing new live sand as well. It is very important that I don't transfer any unwanted guests!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/12/2018, 11:03 AM   #3266
Michael Hoaster
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Yes Patrick, I do have some cryptic areas that have supported good sponge growth. I agree, they are good to have, as another puzzle piece of the ecosystem.

As for taking a bag of pods into a closet, I see nothing wrong with that! But, you know, coming from me…


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/12/2018, 11:10 AM   #3267
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Garden is a good word, vlangel! I've often noted that what I've been doing is basically gardening. And as you pointed out, it's vague enough to cover a lot, and allows more room for changes in direction. I'd like to allow myself a little more room as well.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 02/12/2018, 05:14 PM   #3268
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Start a New Thread or Not?

So, at first I thought there was no need to start a new thread, since I'm not changing much about the tank. Most of you agreed. Then Sam brought up the point of biotope-ness. Would I (sort of) continue to adhere to biotope standards? Or would I not?

While I like using organisms from the same sea, I would like to not be 'shackled' by the biotope concept. What would that look like? In practice, this would mean I would look first to Caribbean species, but allow myself to look elsewhere if needed.

Is this enough of a change to justify a new thread? Sure, and I could more accurately name it to reflect my intensions. I am focused on establishing a functioning ecosystem that models a seagrass lagoon. I'm less concerned with representing a particular sea.

Is it a small enough change to stay on this thread? I would think so. Given the number of times I've gone outside biotope constraints, I can only recall one 'Biotope Police' post. So yeah, I think it would be fine to stay here.

I guess the bottom line question is, do I want to start a new thread, and distinguish it from the old one? I sorta do. I like the idea of starting fresh, and being free from the biotopidity that the old name implied. I sorta don't. Starting a new thread would mean this one would gradually slide down the forum page until it was gone. There's so much good info in here! I'd hate to see it disappear.

The thing I keep coming back to is the name of the thread and the words 'Caribbean Biotope'. If I'm no longer restricting myself to a caribbean biotope, I should start a new one.


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Unread 02/12/2018, 09:00 PM   #3269
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Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

Here’s another one to really make up you mind.
I’ll be honest, if I just so happened to find your thread today for the first time; would I really bother to read all 3000+ posts? Nope.
With this in mind, a new thread would be a way to consolidate all the trial and error into a new, concise, thread. Some sort of seagrass mangrove lagoon.
And yes, a new thread will send this one to the abyss, so pick one! Lol


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Unread 02/12/2018, 09:37 PM   #3270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post

Man, it's great to talk about this stuff! It helps me think it through. So I'll need some new sand to transfer the creatures and grasses into. Another piece of the puzzle…
side note. In northern CO, Landscape companies sell Mexican beach (silica) for $38/ton and coarser grade Mexican beach pebbles for $0.38/lb. I dunno, what you thoughts are on that topic, but.. it is an option.

edit: What about a Caribbe-analog tank?



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Unread 02/12/2018, 09:38 PM   #3271
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I think adding "-ish" is the perfect solution!

I have a question that I think fits this weird corner of the board well.
So I have decent sponge growth - several nice size colonies of half dozen or more species, and am experimenting with ways to ramp up the growth.
I think it could be cool to get a small peaceful sponge grazing fish that won't devour my corals or gorgs (but an occasional nip of zoa or sps isn't disaster), just for that added interest of natural food web interaction.
The sponges are generally Caribbean in origin. Anybody in here run across such a fish?


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Unread 02/12/2018, 09:49 PM   #3272
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Oh also, on the topic of unwanted sandbed guests, what were you looking to exclude?


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Unread 02/12/2018, 11:01 PM   #3273
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More good points, Sam! And even though it would slide off the forum page, it can still be accessed through my public profile, under statistics. I'm leaning towards a new one!


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Unread 02/12/2018, 11:03 PM   #3274
Michael Hoaster
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That's an interesting option JZ. I'll think about it. What do you mean by Caribbe-analog? I haven't heard of that.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018

Last edited by Michael Hoaster; 02/12/2018 at 11:43 PM.
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Unread 02/12/2018, 11:40 PM   #3275
Michael Hoaster
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First off, congrats, taricha, for achieving good sponge growth! I can't think of any fish that are small, sponge grazing and peaceful. Maybe a Rock Beauty Angelfish? They're not that small. The problem is that once you find a fish that fits the bill, I think it's very likely you will soon have no sponges. But I could be wrong. Let us know what you come up with!

Good question on who would I like to exclude from the sand bed. That would be aiptasia anemones, dinoflagellates, and caulerpa slugs, or any fragments, spores or eggs that could bring any of them back into my tank. I thought long and hard about how I might keep my sand. I concluded the only way to be sure I wasn't bringing unwanted guests was to get new sand and seed it with desirable creatures.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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