dosing vodka to bring down N and P

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In general, I think ionic imbalances from potassium chloride or potassium sulfate supplements (or a mixture of the two) are not a concern. I would not recommend dosing any other potassium compound. potassium permanganate would be a very bad choice, as it will be toxic at the levels required.

I have no info on what any zeo products are, but I expect the granules for using in a reactor is some sort of dolomite.

Are there any chemical suppliments that would reduce/reverse the negative side effects of ethanol dosing? The only catch seems to be the lowered ORP, but I imagine there are others. Would adding some sort of hydroxide be advised?

The primary drawbacks, IMO, are bacterial growth and potentially reduced O2 (and possibly excessively low nutrients if dosed too heavily). Aside from heavy aeration, I don't know that I do anything else to alleviate these concerns.

[Icefire]

http://infoex.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/snap/ot...e?the_page=137

I just found that page, it's a technology developped buy the CNRC (same as NIST in USA) to remove Nitrate in groundwater by injecting ethanol.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by Icefire
http://infoex.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/snap/ot...e?the_page=137

I just found that page, it's a technology developped buy the CNRC (same as NIST in USA) to remove Nitrate in groundwater by injecting ethanol.

i tell ya...

we as aquarists should think about how and what we can do to market our knowledge and skills that will not only make a lot of money but will benefit society in doing so.

i recently read that there was a guy with a 'NEW' method of water purification for areas with dirty water.

the 'machine' was contained in a mobile unit (tractor trailer i think) and consisted of the water first going through a particulate filter, then 'foam' fractionation (skimmer) and then reverse osmosis.

ummm, dont all of us already do this? havent we been doing this to some degree at some point in our hobby?

i recall when i was an undergrad student taking a class. in the class was an environmental engineer. her project was to figure out a cheap and maintenance free method of decreasing organic pollution in a river. within one minute i suggested projections coming out of the river bank to capture some river water and slow it down, put in some non-reactive media for bacterial colonization. it would be almost invisible and you can do it along the length of the river. cost should be reasonable as well.

well, she rubbed her chin and thought about it. not too long after, i read in the paper about a new river detoxification method...which sounded surprisingly similar to my idea. this was the mid-late 1980's. i dont know if she developed it and made it into what is was...or it was concurrent thought (the theory that 'someone' will eventually come up with the idea)...but i thought it was strange that it was so coincidental in time.

[VaderWS6]

I added a teaspoon of white sugar to my reef the other night, and the following night my sump was covered in a clear bacterial slime. It is only in the sump, and its driving me nuts! The overflow prefilter was clogged solid with the stuff. How do I get rid of it? Will it eventually subside? I wish I had never added sugar to my reef.....

[doonan75]

It eventually will subside, at least it did on mine. It clogged my skimmer so you might want to check yours.

[VaderWS6]

Originally posted by doonan75
It eventually will subside, at least it did on mine. It clogged my skimmer so you might want to check yours.

Strangely enough, it all went away when I got home from work today! I guess it ran out of sugar? Glad to see its gone.

[rishma]

I have an observation to share.

I started dosing vodka a couple of weeks ago. I put 5ml in ~75 gallons. The next day the water was a little cloudy, no big deal.

However, my anthias and my butterfly both appeared with blotchy white patches on their sides. It was not a disease I recognized but clearly something was wrong. I stopped the vodka dosing, raised the aquarium temperature and began feeding some food with antibiotics, assuming it may be bacterial. Slowly but surely the white patches went away.

I am not sure what is was or if the antibiotic food helped but everyone seemed to get better. I decided that the vodka dosing was likely just a coincidence as I had added some new fish recently.

I initiated vodka dosing again and the next day the white blotches returned. Remarkable.

No, I do not think it causes infections; however, I think it is possible that the higher C-availability could inflame exisiting bacterial infections.

Just my observations. I'll try again in a month after I am confident everyone is healthy.

[hahnmeister]

I noted that experience as well, and it is 100% the ethanol. With fish that were added during dosing, or were being stressed out otherwise (like a wrasse I have that always gets harassed by the mega-male temmincki wrasse I have), I have noticed that they get cloudy eyes and a general haze on their scales. You dont even have to medicate... it seems to depend 100% on the ethanol.

With established, healthy fish... no problems though. Perhaps the anthias, since they are established otherwise, are experiencing some other stress from the tank? Another fish that bullies them, or perhaps an ongoing internal condition that just hasnt been visible before. Or, maybe anthias are just that sensitive. But none of my tangs, foxface, or other established fish in the tank ever had a problem with the dosing unless they were added to the tank when it was already being dosed... then I had to back off for a few days, let it clear up, and then resume.

BTW, what antibiotic food do you use? Is it reef safe? I bought FOCUS, but someone told me that it contains copper... oops!

[rishma]

A few Years ago, Tetra made a flake with tetracycline. I got some and kept it in the freezer. may not be good anymore but at the time i bought it worked very very well. Really amazing results.

[stony_corals]

My fish hasn't experienced any stress while dosing vodka - tangs, chromis, anthias, wrasses...

[hahnmeister]

No, if you dont have any other stressors (new introductions, sensitive fish, etc) you will not even notice.

[bergzy]

david saxby doses vodka in his tank...

http://www.ultimatereef.com/TOTM/2007_jan/

excerpt from his tank of the month write up:

"To combat nitrates there is a large Deltec nitrate filter which is fed a 130ml mixture of vodka and RO water each day via a peristaltic pump. The mixture is 1 part vodka, 3 parts RO - David initially tried Methanol but found his tangs developed red spots after a few days so he switched to a good quality vodka and has not looked back!"

[baloutang]

I guess good quality vodka makes the difference.
Anyone have suggestions on dosing vodka with vitamin C? I'm looking at another thread in the Zoo forum where they are dosing Vit C with some interesting results. It appears that vitamin C can lower nitrates, but again I would rather dose one and not both because of adverse chemical reactions.
Here's the Vitamn C thread : http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1252294
Any thoughts?

[porthios]

can someone point me to a thread/article that addresses the concerns with vodka/carbon dosing raised here by borneman?

[miwoodar]

That is going in my file on myths and mythbusting...my fish are ordering a very large dinner this evening.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

can someone point me to a thread/article that addresses the concerns with vodka/carbon dosing raised here by borneman?

Which concerns? Is there anything there of merit to discuss?

I blasted that article in prepublication review, but it got published anyway. I cannot remember all of my concerns, but one big complaint was the basic assumption in the article that because the process wasn't something Eric needed for his system, it wasn't worth real consideration and probably wouldn't work because he didn't consider it natural.

I know I made posts about it as well when the article came out, but the RC search function is now limited in its ability to search for the terms I'd need to find them.

[hahnmeister]

Seems another one of those 'myths', a bit like the whole 'Bubbleking killed my corals because its too efficient because its a needlewheel so I bought a beckett that skims less and now everything is fine so needlewheels must be bad...lol' idea...
http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36732

[porthios]

I blasted that article in prepublication review, but it got published anyway. I cannot remember all of my concerns, but one big complaint was the basic assumption in the article that because the process wasn't something Eric needed for his system, it wasn't worth real consideration and probably wouldn't work because he didn't consider it natural.

uh oh. i hope you don't think i was trying to pick a scab here. i've seen allusions and references to some drama a while back concerning some of the brains at rc but i don't know (nor need..) the details or even who was involved. please forgive if i've tickled a nerve here. i may be a bit thick but i'm not malicious..

Which concerns? Is there anything there of merit to discuss?

well i am neither equipped nor inclined to defend/condemn the paper obviously. i've just started researching carbon dosing for myself and so far i've found a few threads echoing the familiar..

'i've dosed my tank and it's never look better'
'i've dosed my tank and everything's dead'

a few concerns rang true for me when i read eric's article. as i understand he contends:

1. coral growth has neither been conclusively correlated with high nor low levels of nitrogen and/or phosphate.

is this still true? if it is, why is everyone in such a rush to lower them below the 5-10ppm and .03ppm that have previously been touted as target levels?

then the obvious follow up (which eric mentions also), why is everyone having a hard time keeping nitrate and phosphate at low levels? lots of people seem to be able to feed heavily, stock moderately and maintain undetectable levels without carbon dosing.

i'm all for developing alternate methods of managing nutrient levels as there seem to be some exciting possibilities beyond just helping us noobs keep nice tanks. the ability to maintain sufficient food in the water column to support more nonphotosynthetic organisms seems an obvious possibility (seems eric would have been keen on that idea..). but i'd want to understand why carbon dosing works before relying on it. especially with potential downsides like oxygen depletion..

2. microbial denitrification seems to be as likely limited by nitrate, phosphate, and iron as it is by carbon. he also implies the limiter is likely to depend on environment variables that may vary a great deal from tank to tank.

3. are we improving our tanks beyond what can be achieved with standard husbandry practices? or are we trying to compensate/allow for our sins of lazyness? i'm down for either of course.

i'm unconcerned with his attacks on the original article. i haven't read it and i couldn't care less if the original authors knew what they were talking about or not. i just want to understand the theory behind the methodology so i can decide for myself if i want to dose carbon.

i figured there might be an article/thread addressing eric's article and that i might find answers to the methodological concerns raised.

again, i'm very sorry if i ruffled any feathers..

[SDguy]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Seems another one of those 'myths', a bit like the whole 'Bubbleking killed my corals because its too efficient because its a needlewheel so I bought a beckett that skims less and now everything is fine so needlewheels must be bad...lol' idea...
http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36732

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

uh oh. i hope you don't think i was trying to pick a scab here. i've seen allusions and references to some drama a while back concerning some of the brains at rc but i don't know (nor need..) the details or even who was involved. please forgive if i've tickled a nerve here. i may be a bit thick but i'm not malicious..

No, that wasn't it. That big one was with Ron Shimek where he claimed that I was killing everything in my tank due to heavy metals like copper in the Instant Ocean that I use. he never accepted the idea that my tank has more copper than the IO, and so every water change helped reduce copper, not raise it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My problem with Eric on this is that he never denied it worked, just that somehow the understanding of it wasn't adequate to be useful. I disagree, although I do not choose to use it myself.

1. coral growth has neither been conclusively correlated with high nor low levels of nitrogen and/or phosphate.

is this still true? if it is, why is everyone in such a rush to lower them below the 5-10ppm and .03ppm that have previously been touted as target levels?

Does the answer really matter? Algae problems alone are sufficient to warrant low nutrient levels. IME, it is also clear that elevated nutrients lead to certain corals being more brown, but I cannot prove it to others with careful studies.

2. microbial denitrification seems to be as likely limited by nitrate, phosphate, and iron as it is by carbon. he also implies the limiter is likely to depend on environment variables that may vary a great deal from tank to tank.


We are not talking about true denitrification, just simply growth. Adding carbon sources clearly increases bacterial growth. Add too much you get a bloom of growth.

[porthios]

My problem with Eric on this is that he never denied it worked, just that somehow the understanding of it wasn't adequate to be useful. I disagree, although I do not choose to use it myself.

ok. perhaps a slight difference of interpretation as i read it as a caution for reef keepers against management methods that aren't well understood and specifically those mentioned in the article he critiqued. i think that's tough to argue against when there are nutrient management methods that are comparatively far better understood, safer, etc..

i guess the purpose of my original post was to find out if our understanding was now 'adequate to be useful'. i haven't found a good 'how-to and here's what happens' article yet..

Does the answer really matter? Algae problems alone are sufficient to warrant low nutrient levels. IME, it is also clear that elevated nutrients lead to certain corals being more brown, but I cannot prove it to others with careful studies.

well, i think it does if coral health were adversely affected by low nutrient levels and many would argue that algae problems at standard nutrient levels are best addressed with grazing.

that said, i'm not going to defend that position because ime as well, low nutrient tanks are easier to manage and my colonies tend to look better..

We are not talking about true denitrification, just simply growth. Adding carbon sources clearly increases bacterial growth. Add too much you get a bloom of growth.

i just found a reference to this article that i'd like to read but i don't have the required subscription. is there typically another way to get a copy?

Kline, D.I., Kuntz, N.M., Breitbart, M., Knowlton, N., and Rohwer, F. Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality. Marine Ecology Progress Series 314: 119-125, 2006

from the abstract

Here we experimentally show that routinely measured components of water quality (nitrate, phosphate, ammonia) do not cause substantial coral mortality. In contrast, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), which is rarely measured on reefs, does. Elevated DOC levels also accelerate the growth rate of microbes living in the corals’ surface mucopolysaccharide layer by an order of magnitude, suggesting that mortality occurs due to a disruption of the balance between the coral and its associated microbiota.

[porthios]

ok, nevermind. i found a summary of the paper on the web. it seems they show that elevated levels of dissolved organic carbon can kill coral. don't think anyone'd argue that here :P

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have always been a proponent of reducing dissolved organics for many reasons (reducing cyano, some are toxic, etc), but there is little reason to believe that the simple and easily metabolized organics used here as a carbon source cause any of the problems that are attributed to the naturally occurring dissolved organics on a real reef. Many of those are complex toxins intentionally released by organisms, etc

i think that's tough to argue against when there are nutrient management methods that are comparatively far better understood

Which would those be?

i think it does if coral health were adversely affected by low nutrient levels and many would argue that algae problems at standard nutrient levels are best addressed with grazing.

I disagree somewhat. Cyano is never easily solved by grazing. Bryopsis, as well.

[porthios]

Which would those be?

haha.. well, i was thinking of water changes, macro algae export, dsb's, etc.. don't you think they're a bit better better understood than the bacterial community in our tanks and its response to carbon dosing? especially for the average reefer? even the relative complexity of managing a dsb for the beginning reefer pales in comparison to carbon dosing when you consider the consequences of getting either wrong.

it seems to me that the most important skill you develop as you become a better reefer is the ability to recognize, diagnose and resolve problems that crop up in your tank (ok, mixing electricity and water is pretty far up there too :P). you'd better be pretty far along that path before you mess with something as powerful and complex as bacteria imo, because 'bad stuff' (tm) can happen real quick..

honestly, i'm a bit torn in this discussion because i resent being told i need to have training wheels on my tank. i'm very excited about pursuing ideas that have a chance of advancing the hobby (which i believe carbon dosing to be). then i read a post by a brand new reefer who's concerned that his 15ppm nitrate level is killing his fish and the first response is 'you should dose vodka!' and my heart sinks..

i'd feel much better if there was an rhf article on carbon dosing available

I disagree somewhat. Cyano is never easily solved by grazing. Bryopsis, as well.

ok. i think that's probably a good point but i definitely don't have the experience to intelligently argue either way. i've had some luck with the staghorn hermit and fighting conch grazing on cyano but i'm sure it's as 'hit or miss' as a lot of reef tank grazing seems to be.

i've been fortunate to avoid having to deal with these beyond the occasional, temporary patch. lol, i'm sure next week i'll be posting questions about an insane cyano and bryopsis patches that appeared 'out of nowhere' to completely overwhelm my tank..

'honey.. we have any vodka in the house?!?'