I would like to talk to Randy Holmes-farley about beach sand

[oldpaddy]

Hi all, I know there's a bunch of threads about using beach sand in a reef aquarium, but I bet there aren't any threads directly asking Randy Holmes-farley about beach sand in a reef aquarium!
Hi Doc, I just read a great article regarding silicate in a reef aquarium that you wrote back in '03. I Googled your name and here I am
I don't have a reef aquarium yet, but I hope to one day. Right now I'm putting together a 90gal marine aquarium, with the hopes of turning into a reef tank eventually.
I live on the tip of Cape Cod and have already decided to try using water on the ocean side. What I'd also like to do, is have a 4-6" deep sand bed using beach sand. Most people tell me I can't, but I'm not getting a satisfying answer as to why. For that matter, I also have a lot of people tell me I can't use ocean water, but I'm not listening to them anymore. I've made up my mind to try it anyway!

So Dr Holmes-farley I ask you, if I do a deep sand bed with beautiful (sterilized) cape cod beach sand, will I be able to do a reef aquarium?

Feel free to give me a 30 page answer, and thanks!

[accordsirh22]

what is your sand made out of?

[oldpaddy]

Hi accord, I'm waiting for the definitive answer from the park scientists, but I'd wager on it being 90% quartz. But I see Randy Holmes-farley lives in Massachusetts, so I bet he can answer that too lol

[oldpaddy]

I would've messaged him directly, but for some reason I can't.

[albano]

Who/how will sterilize the sand?

[oldpaddy]

Hi albano, I just grabbed the sand a little while ago. I grabbed it from the beach and have it sitting in water in the buckets. I plan on rinsing and soaking it until the water is clear. Then I'm either going to boil or bake it. The sand is sugar sized. Thanks!

[albano]

I'm no expert, but I would think that beach sand is the worst/dirtiest of all sand...probably better to collect as far out as possible

There are plenty of people that use ocean water, but I believe that it is collected a few miles out from land.

[mcgyvr]

In general beach sand and water collected close to shore has the possibility of the most contaminates/toxins/nasties,etc... in it..
Could your beach sand/water be fine.. yes it could..
Could it cause problems.. yes it absolutely could..

The risk is yours to take...
I doubt Randy is going to bust out his chemistry set and go check it for you.

[oldpaddy]

Ha mcgyvr! I wouldn't mind him breaking out his chemistry set on my water and sand, but I was more interested in how a reef aquarium, or even just a marine aquarium, would handle a deep beach sand bed.
Everyone I ask or talk to has an opinion. Most of the opinions are based on opinions. I'm just trying to get an answer from someone who can give me an answer based on science. I read a couple of articles/papers written by the good doctor, and figured he might be the most qualified to answer my question. I'm also waiting to hear back from WHOI and the scientists from the National seashore lol

[Redman88]

if you want an answer based on chemistry get some test kits and a ten gallon tank and some dry rock. set up a tank and see what happens. Randy-Homes beach sand is going to be different then your sand.

[oldpaddy]

Originally Posted by Redman88

if you want an answer based on chemistry get some test kits and a ten gallon tank and some dry rock. set up a tank and see what happens. Randy-Homes beach sand is going to be different then your sand.

Actually he might have a halfway decent idea about the makeup of the beaches around me. But I'm more interested in if it's possible to have a functioning deep sand bed with sand that's made up of mostly quartz in a reef aquarium. As opposed to a substrate made up of crushed coral/sand. He wrote a very interesting paper/article about silicate in reef aquariums and that's why I wanted to ask him. I had someone tell me earlier that some of his crabs died because he used beach sand (silicate) and his crabs needed coral. I've also been told that the beneficial bacteria needed in a reef aquarium won't live in beach sand. And I've had others tell me it's fine.

[oldpaddy]

I'd also like to know about the loss of calcium by using local beach sand.

[edinphilly]

Have you seen this thread? Paul B has a tank almost 40 yrs old and uses a lot of stuff he pulls from the sea.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...8#post15749848

[pmaloy]

It sounds like you're pretty set on doing what you want to do, so why ask if you can? Give it a shot - what's the worst that can happen?

You also seem to have an odd infatuation with this Dr Holmes-farley fellow...

[albano]

Originally Posted by pmaloy

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 2

Wow...first post in 6 years...oldpaddy must have you really upset!

[gbru316]

Glad Paul B's tank was mentioned.

The majority of people like to point out how "contaminated," "dirty," and "dangerous" collecting your own reef organisms is. But then there is Paul B. He's quick to point out that he has no degrees, and doesn't consider himself an expert, but his tank and method speaks for itself. He's a pretty big believer in adding stuff from the "wild" into his tank. The number of fish that have successfully spawned in his tank, and the longevity of his livestock say that adding stuff from the ocean aren't nearly as dangerous as some would have you believe. His tank will be 45 years old next year. Good luck finding anyone else on RC, or in the hobby, with that much experience.

Regarding your question, there shouldn't be any harm in it. While it's probably quartz based sand instead of the aragonite commonly used in the hobby, it'll work just fine. Again, some will say that you'll have silicate problems, some will mention the lack of life in the sandbed because of the sharp sand grain edges present with this type of sand, others have had success with it.

I say go for it. There's no absolute reason why you can't.

[pmaloy]

Originally Posted by albano

Wow...first post in 6 years...oldpaddy must have you really upset!

I only weigh in on the issues that really matter lol.

[albano]

Originally Posted by gbru316

Glad Paul B's tank was mentioned.

The majority of people like to point out how "contaminated," "dirty," and "dangerous" collecting your own reef organisms is. But then there is Paul B. He's quick to point out that he has no degrees, and doesn't consider himself an expert, but his tank and method speaks for itself. He's a pretty big believer in adding stuff from the "wild" into his tank. The number of fish that have successfully spawned in his tank, and the longevity of his livestock say that adding stuff from the ocean aren't nearly as dangerous as some would have you believe. His tank will be 45 years old next year. Good luck finding anyone else on RC, or in the hobby, with that much experience.

Regarding your question, there shouldn't be any harm in it. While it's probably quartz based sand instead of the aragonite commonly used in the hobby, it'll work just fine. Again, some will say that you'll have silicate problems, some will mention the lack of life in the sandbed because of the sharp sand grain edges present with this type of sand, others have had success with it.

I say go for it. There's no absolute reason why you can't.

According to his first couple posts and pics on that thread...he has dolomite as a substrate, not beach sand

[oldpaddy]

Thanks guys, I think I'm going to give it a shot. I found a great podcast where an "expert" explains why you can use a quartz based substrate. Very informative, check it out. http://www.reefthreads.com/?p=2079

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by albano

According to his first couple posts and pics on that thread...he has dolomite as a substrate, not beach sand

Yep. I never said he used beach sand as a substrate.

[oldpaddy]

Originally Posted by pmaloy

It sounds like you're pretty set on doing what you want to do, so why ask if you can? Give it a shot - what's the worst that can happen?

You also seem to have an odd infatuation with this Dr Holmes-farley fellow...

Haha it does seem that way, doesn't it? There's a lot of information regarding this hobby, and a good chunk of it is contradictory. I read a great article he wrote regarding silica in a reef aquarium. Seeing how the substrate I want to use is mostly quartz, I figured he was the man to talk to. The expert in the podcast I shared in an earlier post even referenced Randy.

[tzylak]

Beach sand, reef sand, play sand. It is all sand to me. I am using mostly play sand and will top it off with aragonite for good measure.
Contaminated? Rinse it well. Put it in the tank and let it cycle. In 3-4 months whatever was there will be gone thru water changes. . .
That's my approach and am sticking to it. . .
Believe in NONE of what you hear, HALF of what you see and ALL of what you do . . . (Ancient Chinese Proverb)
Good luck

[albano]

Originally Posted by gbru316

Yep. I never said he used beach sand as a substrate.

And I never said, that you said it...but IMO your omission of that fact, was taken as part of your endorsement of it's use.

Originally Posted by gbru316

Regarding your question, there shouldn't be any harm in it. While it's probably quartz based sand instead of the aragonite commonly used in the hobby, it'll work just fine. Again, some will say that you'll have silicate problems, some will mention the lack of life in the sandbed because of the sharp sand grain edges present with this type of sand, others have had success with it.

I say go for it. There's no absolute reason why you can't.

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by albano

And I never said, that you said it...but IMO your omission of that fact, was taken as part of your endorsement of it's use.

Ok

[edinphilly]

Originally Posted by oldpaddy

Actually he might have a halfway decent idea about the makeup of the beaches around me. But I'm more interested in if it's possible to have a functioning deep sand bed with sand that's made up of mostly quartz in a reef aquarium. As opposed to a substrate made up of crushed coral/sand. He wrote a very interesting paper/article about silicate in reef aquariums and that's why I wanted to ask him. I had someone tell me earlier that some of his crabs died because he used beach sand (silicate) and his crabs needed coral. I've also been told that the beneficial bacteria needed in a reef aquarium won't live in beach sand. And I've had others tell me it's fine.

Nothing wrong with seeking out the opinion of someone specific especially since you've read his work and have a valid reason for wanting it. If I were you I would post your specific question in the chemistry forum as that is where he moderates, or find his email online and ask him directly.

I only recently found the thread on Paul B's long lived tank and am trying to read as much as possible. In a hobby with a lot of people giving bad advice (my experience with LFS and some forums) it makes sense to emulate those who've had the success you're trying for.