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Unread 10/01/2011, 07:35 PM   #51
bluebastion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPotter View Post
How do your corals look under this fixture? I read some posts where people were experiencing browning tips. Do you have any recent photos to post?
This is a new build so the only thing I have at this time is a Clean Up Crew. I'll be going on a vacation for a week and a half very soon and don't plan to stock life in this tank until my return.

Browning has been an issue for all types of LED fixtures.. and usually due to not acclimating the corals to the LED lighting. I plan to dim down my lights and start at 15% and go up 1-2% increments daily until the corals are accustomed to the lights at 50% (the highest ramp-up I plan to go to at this time).


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Unread 10/01/2011, 08:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rtparty View Post
I don't think I worded my opinion the very best. I am not saying that red light is good for corals. I am saying it is good for color rendering and makes the tank look better to ME.

On my RGB I rarely, if ever, switch it to the pure white selection. The corals don't look that great under all white light. I run it on either a cyan color, all blue, or a blue/purple mix.

The blue/purple is my favorite. The corals glow under this spectrum. When I add more lighting I will throw in an 8k white module and then 3 stunner strips that are all blue and maybe some UV.
rt,

i was under the impression that you felt red and rgb were good for corals missing spectrum, not just for looks. please clarify?
post 33?

thank you


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Unread 10/01/2011, 08:09 PM   #53
WingoLED
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Originally Posted by SPotter View Post
Has anyone added Red and Green LED's to their fixtures and have you noticed any difference in appearance and growth?
I did. The green brings out red color and metallic colors of fish VERY WELL. Flame angles will look way better than before. I don't have metallic skin fish in SW but I have a discus tank where I employ some green.

The left side of the tank is lited with green while the right side is lited with blue

[IMG] Flickr 上 WingoAgencyLED and Discus B IMG_2041[/IMG]


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Unread 10/01/2011, 08:23 PM   #54
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Just some food for thought here...



This is a photo from a Japanese LED reefing site showing the spectrum of the sun, along with (what I believe to be) the spectral peaks for optimal coral coloration.

For comparison, here's what cool white and royal blue looks like according to the same website:



It's a little ridiculous to expect good results in terms of color when so much is lacking here. Mainly, it's lacking ~650nm, ~420nm, 500nm and in UV. As opposed to RGB, I would suggest adding a deep red LED that peaks around 650nm (ex. the Osram 660nm 3w- most commonly used red LEDs are in the ~620-640nm range, so they won't work for filling in that gap), an LED that peaks around 420nm (the SemiLED BlueViolet is the only one I know of- 415-420nm), and an LED that peaks around 500nm (the 3w Cyan Rebel is the only one I know of- the "Cree blues" commonly used to fill in this gap are 465-485nm, which won't completely work). I'm not completely sure about the need for UV yet (I haven't done enough research on this, although I've heard that the colorful coral "sunscreen" is in fact transparent- but again, I don't really know). However, these 3 LEDs (when mixed with Neutral White and Royal Blue) should give stunning results for coloration/aesthetics.



Last edited by JaneG; 10/01/2011 at 08:30 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 08:44 PM   #55
bluebastion
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Originally Posted by JaneG View Post
Just some food for thought here...
Mainly, it's lacking ~650nm, ~420nm, 500nm and in UV. As opposed to RGB, I would suggest adding a deep red LED that peaks around 650nm (ex. the Osram 660nm 3w- most commonly used red LEDs are in the ~620-640nm range, so they won't work for filling in that gap), an LED that peaks around 420nm (the SemiLED BlueViolet is the only one I know of- 415-420nm), and an LED that peaks around 500nm (the 3w Cyan Rebel is the only one I know of- the "Cree blues" commonly used to fill in this gap are 465-485nm, which won't completely work). I'm not completely sure about the need for UV yet (I haven't done enough research on this, although I've heard that the colorful coral "sunscreen" is in fact transparent- but again, I don't really know). However, these 3 LEDs (when mixed with Neutral White and Royal Blue) should give stunning results for coloration/aesthetics.
I should be happy then... the Vertex Illuminas utilize main pads (2 per ft.) that each have 16 cree LED's: 8x 7k white; 4x 420nm blue; 4x 450 royal blue

They have red-only auxiliary pads out now... but most of us Illumina owners are waiting for a mixed pad of red and UV. Auxiliary pads consist of two channels of 4 LEDs and fit between the main pads. So with my 36" Illumina that has 6 main pads, I can upgrade to 4 auxiliary pads.

I will say that green is starting to sound more interesting though.


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Last edited by bluebastion; 10/01/2011 at 08:49 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 08:45 PM   #56
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thank you Jane,

So your suggested mix in summary is:

NW, RB, + Red (Osram 660nm), Blue/Violet (SemiLED)420nm, Cyan Rebel 500nm


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Unread 10/01/2011, 09:03 PM   #57
JaneG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrossetti View Post
thank you Jane,

So your suggested mix in summary is:

NW, RB, + Red (Osram 660nm), Blue/Violet (SemiLED)420nm, Cyan Rebel 500nm
That's what I would personally recommend, but they all need to be in a good ratio. I have yet to try this out myself (I will soon, however), but some reefers in Japan have had great success by using "full spectrum" LED lighting like this. Here's an example of one that uses a similar LED combination. According to the owner of the tank, it has been under LEDs for over a year... his results are spectacular.





Last edited by JaneG; 10/01/2011 at 09:23 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 09:37 PM   #58
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looks like a eco lamp, Acan plus others


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Unread 10/01/2011, 10:02 PM   #59
JaneG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrossetti View Post
looks like a eco lamp, Acan plus others
According to the owner's build profile, it is the Eco-Lamp like you stated. It uses Neutral White LEDs, Cool White LEDs, 420nm BlueViolet LEDs, 405nm UV LEDs, Royal Blue, Blue LEDs (475nm) and Cyan LEDs (500nm). I can't really think of any parts of the spectrum it's missing- it's a great example of what LEDs can do. Here's another photo from a reefer in Japan using the same wide spectrum fixture:



His results are equally amazing.



Last edited by JaneG; 10/01/2011 at 10:17 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 10:11 PM   #60
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wow, what's making the red pop?


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Unread 10/01/2011, 10:33 PM   #61
JaneG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrossetti View Post
wow, what's making the red pop?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. However, here's a photo from the same Japanese website that shows what a tank looks like with BlueViolet LEDs only (420nm).



For whatever reason, the greens in this photo are really bright. I'm going to try to translate this photo:



Notice that for the 420nm area, the greens peak? Maybe this has something to do with reading it.

I have heard some people claiming that cyan LEDs (~500nm) make their reds pop. This could be a part of the equation. The fixture also uses Neutral White LEDs, which (as I'm sure you know) have had good success with increasing red colors to an extent.


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Unread 10/01/2011, 10:40 PM   #62
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thanks for all your effort, Jane.

i guess WW is out of the mix, huh?



Last edited by pmrossetti; 10/01/2011 at 10:46 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 11:16 PM   #63
JaneG
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Originally Posted by pmrossetti View Post
thanks for all your effort, Jane.

i guess WW is out of the mix, huh?
Hm, I tried translating the image a little.



The orange text on the far left says "Carotene" (or "orange pigment") and the website in general talks about "fluorescent dyes" and "photosynthetic pigments" at this point of the article. With this in mind, I'm almost certain that the cyan LEDs are bringing out such vibrant red coloration (because of where the "red" line peaks on the graph). This is somewhat interesting, as many LED users have problems with their reds- maybe it's because of the lack of cyan/green? I've noticed most people have no problems with their green coloration and LEDs (as suggested by topics like this)- Royal Blue LEDs are ~450nm, and the green line on the graph peaks at this exact location. If all of this information is correct, I'm no longer convinced that the deep red LED (660nm) is necessary, as the "green line" reaches its peak right where the Royal Blue is. Now that it is known how to read the graph, it should be interesting to see what LEDs will bring out what colors.

As for the warm white LEDs... I don't think they're unnecessary (but they aren't that different than Neutral White when you mix them together with cool white). To be honest, you most likely wouldn't see any difference between the two (Warm White mixed with Cool White vs. Neutral White). It could be a good option for people looking to supplement their already made LED fixtures that use Cool White.

Sorry to kind of rant on about this- best of luck to you on any potential LED plans you might have!



Last edited by JaneG; 10/01/2011 at 11:21 PM.
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Unread 10/01/2011, 11:22 PM   #64
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no rant, very interesting. thank you much.


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Unread 10/01/2011, 11:37 PM   #65
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I think a big key that Jane touched on with this information of a "full spectrum" is ratios. These Japanese tanks look amazing but someone really has put in some effort getting the LED ratio correct...

Jane is there any info on that site about the ratios some of these tanks are using??


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Unread 10/02/2011, 05:27 AM   #66
Kolognekoral
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Originally Posted by bluebastion View Post
Jamie,

With all that you have stated.. what color combo on the next Vertex pad do you want to see? It seems everyone (including me) have stated they want red and UV... do you think the best request would be to be UV/Green or UV/Warm White?
I am currently hoping for a turqouise-violet combination, that would be about 490nm and 410nm. Until now, all trials and research done on corals and UV have shown that corals respond at around 400nm-405nm and not under this, which would be UV (under 400nm). If this is the case, then true UV is really superfluous, but more testing needs to be done.

I am testing red at the moment and am noting a certain amount of bleaching/paling with higher levels. This would support the idea that red light actually inhibits zooxanthellae (Dana Riddle's data somewhat supports this). An interesting situation, as, properly applied, this may allow us to control the zooxanthellae density and thus the colour of the corals. It could be problematic, as well, with ODing actually damaging th corals. Plus, many may not like the general colouration. Again, aesthetic, but this time based on some interesting results. Don't quote me on this, as it is too soon to be sure and I've only noted this on Montipora digitata, M. samarensis and another plating Monti. These have a fast metabolism and respond very quickly to light changes.

Jamie


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Unread 10/02/2011, 05:40 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by SPotter View Post
I thought you couldn't get the vertex leds in the US?

Steve
Apparently, most of the patent preventing this has been overthrown (as it should have been. Very irresponsible patent office!)


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Unread 10/02/2011, 05:45 AM   #68
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Quote:
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Jamie,
which vertex fixture would you suggest on a 60x36x30 tank?
That is a bit longer than my tank and I use the SR260 1200mm. In general, a fixture that is within 12"/30cm of the tank length is best. There is a 60"/1500mm size, which would be about 2" longer than your tank, due to the end caps. If this is not a problem, do it, otherwise take the 48"/1200mm size. I find most of us tend to place our lowlight corals to the extreme left and right of the tank, which makes these lower light areas usefull (probably more out of habit that desire, but...)

jamie


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Unread 10/02/2011, 06:34 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Kolognekoral View Post
That is a bit longer than my tank and I use the SR260 1200mm. In general, a fixture that is within 12"/30cm of the tank length is best. There is a 60"/1500mm size, which would be about 2" longer than your tank, due to the end caps. If this is not a problem, do it, otherwise take the 48"/1200mm size. I find most of us tend to place our lowlight corals to the extreme left and right of the tank, which makes these lower light areas usefull (probably more out of habit that desire, but...)

jamie
Thanks Jamie but what about the width??? I am concerned about the tank being 36" wide and having light drop off.


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Am I really doing all of this for a fish tank??????

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Unread 10/02/2011, 07:35 AM   #70
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Thanks Jamie but what about the width??? I am concerned about the tank being 36" wide and having light drop off.
Shouldn't be a problem. As I said, my tank is about the same dimensions, 136cm x70cmx80cm or 55"x25"x30", and I have plenty of spread. The plus on the Vertex cluster system is the extremely wide spread, unlike optics which bundle the light into a smaller angle/beam, which, IMO, is not very reef-like or good for the corals, as it is like a hot shot of light. We often hear of burning with optics, partly due to the aquarist enthusiasm for light, or simply photoinhibition. Clustering creates an intense point-light source which diffuses more as in nature through the water. We see this when we compare PAR graphics between the two variations; the optics give higher PAR at the surface, but both systems give about the same PAR at 30" under the water. The gradient evens out with depth. In other words, with optics you have more variation in PAR in the same distance as with clustered LEDs. Of course, one can hang those with optic higher and get a softer effect, but why? Again, aesthetics plays a role.

Just my opinion on overall effect.


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Unread 10/02/2011, 08:37 AM   #71
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Jane,

nice to see the graphics on pigment wavelength response. This is an interesting area, but graphics can be misleading, as well. To get more background on pigments under light, the articles from Dana Riddle and co. lay down some interesting ground work. Maybe you've already read through them.

I've noted some fluorescent pigments respond to wavelenghts that they do not actually reflect, rather convert from another pigments wavelengths. A sort of symbiosis. Just knowing this may happen makes sorting out the right wavelengths for specific colours in corals a real challenge.

Jamie


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Unread 10/02/2011, 10:07 AM   #72
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jamie,

As of now, do illumina have RGB clusters or only RED LEDs available as a option?
You mantion that one unit can cover 36" wide tank..HMMM , i am not so sure about it and you tank only 25" as per you specs.. this is my great concern sincei am planning something like 72x36x24.

mike

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Unread 10/02/2011, 12:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by MSHUR View Post
jamie,

As of now, do illumina have RGB clusters or only RED LEDs available as a option?
You mantion that one unit can cover 36" wide tank..HMMM , i am not so sure about it and you tank only 25" as per you specs.. this is my great concern sincei am planning something like 72x36x24.

mike

mike
I'll take the liberty in answering for Jamie... however I see him as the expert... Vertex Illuminas do not have to be purchased in the exact length of the tank... they can be purchased 12" shorter... I have done the same and no dark spots to the naked eye 6" on either side. Now I do have a narrow tank (18")... so for someone with a wider tank, this may be a different story. Common sense tells us the further away you are from the light, the less light intensity, PAR, or however you want to measure it will be negatively affected. This is even more so true when it comes to LED lights. I see it as a limitation of LED's in general, and not the Illumina itself. If money was no object, for those with super wide tanks.. I'd recommend 2 fixtures side by side length wise... but that's not practical to most people (including me).


At this time Vertex only has red auxiliary pads out right now... but they have an open ear to their customers. The beauty of this light is it is modular. Something that most people do not realize about this fixture is that it is future proof... every single pad is replaceable if new better pads come out in the future. Also between the main pads you can add 2 more channels of light, each pad have 2 different color possibilities.

I love how this thread has evolved, because I really want to know which LED colors NEED to be supplemented in to our required blues and whites. VERTEX I hope you're following this thread. Lots of great information.


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Unread 10/02/2011, 12:04 PM   #74
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apparently, most of the patent preventing this has been overthrown (as it should have been. Very irresponsible patent office!)
+1


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Unread 10/02/2011, 12:18 PM   #75
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Has anyone looked at the new coral magazine because they have a huge article on all the led technology and might help but this topic to bed. I know most of it is personal preference but what works best for the corals is the ultimate goal!


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