Do I need HOB Filter if I have a sump?

dougs280z · 04/23/2018, 05:56 AM

I have a 29 gallon display tank with a 20 gallon sump. I recently took everything down and doing a lot of maintenance due to finding copper in the tank. I used to have a HOB Penguin 200 filter on the display tank and am not sure if it is necessary to have at all, or at least if it needs to be on the display tank. I always thought it was nice to help filter fish waste and keep the display tank cleaner, but I've had people tell me it wasn't necessary. I wanted to get your thoughts before I setup anything.

I will be using 20-30 lbs of live rock at first and start adding some more over time. I have a protein skimmer in the sump and will have several circulation pumps.

Dmorty217 · 04/23/2018, 06:00 AM

If you have a sump there is no real need for the HOB filter

mcgyvr · 04/23/2018, 06:16 AM

A sump and a hang on filter are 2 totally different things...
One does not negate the need for the other in any way..
A sump is simply a remote location to put equipment.. But other than increasing water volume and giving you a place to hide equipment it serves no filtration purposes at all by itself..

Now having said that its important to understand the purpose of any equipment you put on a tank..
A HOB filter typically contains mechanical filtration material and often a small amount of carbon in that filter bag..
Mechanical filtration can help filter out particles in the water and also trap fish poop/detritus.. Studies have shown though that unless that filter (and the trapped material its absorbed) is changed every few days that its not very useful at all.. Mechanical filters can't remove chemical elements like nitrate/phosphate,etc... It can only trap material before it breaks down into that and it starts to break down in as little as a few hours and its just not feasible to change filters every few hours..
The small amount of carbon those filter packs contain can help slightly to reduce yellowing in the water and to remove some chemical aspects but its such a small amount typically that its clogged/used up rather quickly also..

So in general most recommend against mechanical filtration devices like that because they really don't do any good long term and really aren't that helpful..

A protein skimmer in your sump would be more beneficial than a HOB mechanical filter and it accomplished much of the same goals as a mechanical filter but it removes those elements from the water column and places it into a cup that can't leach those elements back into the water..

RobZilla04 · 04/23/2018, 06:16 AM

Redundant to have a HOB filter & a sump filtration system. If you want the added filtration or you have a certain filter media you want to use in the HOB then it can be beneficial.

dougs280z · 04/23/2018, 06:29 AM

Ok thanks for the input. What about the need for the bio wheel or bio-balls. Is it correct that the live rock/sand is the only real biological filtration needed? Would it benefit me to put some bioballs in the sump? Thanks again.

RobZilla04 · 04/23/2018, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougs280z

Ok thanks for the input. What about the need for the bio wheel or bio-balls. Is it correct that the live rock/sand is the only real biological filtration needed? Would it benefit me to put some bioballs in the sump? Thanks again.

Bio balls have become the "old school" set up. Bio blocks/bricks have become popular although neither is truly necessary. Live rock and sand is really all that is needed. So long as you have a sufficient amount for the water volume & bio load, that is all you need for success. Simply using extra rock in the sump will accomplish the same as bio balls or blocks.

mcgyvr · 04/23/2018, 06:53 AM

Bacteria does mostly all of the "work" in a tank...
It grows/colonizes on the surfaces of the tank..
That surface can be calcium/plastic/glass or whatever.. The more surface area the greater the potential bacterial counts a tank can have..
The amount of surface area that fine sand adds to a tank is HUGE.. Like square feet without to square miles with..

Anything that adds to the surface area can be said to be beneficial..
In general though provided you don't overfeed/overstock your tank just having sand/rock should be sufficient (has been proven to be sufficient)..
Some people like a very minimalist setup in that they want very little rock in the tank.. Those people can benefit the most from additional "stuff" in the sump that increases surface area.. As stated "blocks/bricks" have become the latest "got to have" things to increase surface area and they do quite well at it..They are a foamed ceramic and can have substantial surface area..

dougs280z · 04/23/2018, 07:04 AM

Thanks, thats what I was thinking and I'll be glad to get rid of the HOB filter. I originally set it up without the sump which is why i had it there, but then I just kept it there after the sump was installed.

One more question. I never had sand in my sump, but would you recommend adding some or is it not beneficial in the sump? I usually had a lot of extra live rock in there but I'd be ok with adding some additional sand if it's beneficial.

mcgyvr · 04/23/2018, 07:17 AM

Most people don't put sand in the sump but again it can serve to add surface area for bacteria..

Personally anything that "traps" detritus in a sump is a negative to me... I prefer to have it be able to flow freely through the sump and be returned to the display to be food for filter feeders,coral,etc...

I also like to be able to vacuum my sump if needed and just give it a total cleaning down to the glass/acrylic bottom..

04/23/2018, 05:56 AM	#1
dougs280z Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 13	Do I need HOB Filter if I have a sump? I have a 29 gallon display tank with a 20 gallon sump. I recently took everything down and doing a lot of maintenance due to finding copper in the tank. I used to have a HOB Penguin 200 filter on the display tank and am not sure if it is necessary to have at all, or at least if it needs to be on the display tank. I always thought it was nice to help filter fish waste and keep the display tank cleaner, but I've had people tell me it wasn't necessary. I wanted to get your thoughts before I setup anything. I will be using 20-30 lbs of live rock at first and start adding some more over time. I have a protein skimmer in the sump and will have several circulation pumps.

04/23/2018, 06:00 AM	#2
Dmorty217 Saltwater Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Vandalia OHIO Posts: 11,624	If you have a sump there is no real need for the HOB filter __________________ Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs

04/23/2018, 06:16 AM	#3
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	A sump and a hang on filter are 2 totally different things... One does not negate the need for the other in any way.. A sump is simply a remote location to put equipment.. But other than increasing water volume and giving you a place to hide equipment it serves no filtration purposes at all by itself.. Now having said that its important to understand the purpose of any equipment you put on a tank.. A HOB filter typically contains mechanical filtration material and often a small amount of carbon in that filter bag.. Mechanical filtration can help filter out particles in the water and also trap fish poop/detritus.. Studies have shown though that unless that filter (and the trapped material its absorbed) is changed every few days that its not very useful at all.. Mechanical filters can't remove chemical elements like nitrate/phosphate,etc... It can only trap material before it breaks down into that and it starts to break down in as little as a few hours and its just not feasible to change filters every few hours.. The small amount of carbon those filter packs contain can help slightly to reduce yellowing in the water and to remove some chemical aspects but its such a small amount typically that its clogged/used up rather quickly also.. So in general most recommend against mechanical filtration devices like that because they really don't do any good long term and really aren't that helpful.. A protein skimmer in your sump would be more beneficial than a HOB mechanical filter and it accomplished much of the same goals as a mechanical filter but it removes those elements from the water column and places it into a cup that can't leach those elements back into the water.. __________________ Who me?

04/23/2018, 06:16 AM	#4
RobZilla04 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: St. Augustine, FL Posts: 1,857	Redundant to have a HOB filter & a sump filtration system. If you want the added filtration or you have a certain filter media you want to use in the HOB then it can be beneficial. __________________ 90g Mixed Reef

04/23/2018, 06:53 AM	#7
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Bacteria does mostly all of the "work" in a tank... It grows/colonizes on the surfaces of the tank.. That surface can be calcium/plastic/glass or whatever.. The more surface area the greater the potential bacterial counts a tank can have.. The amount of surface area that fine sand adds to a tank is HUGE.. Like square feet without to square miles with.. Anything that adds to the surface area can be said to be beneficial.. In general though provided you don't overfeed/overstock your tank just having sand/rock should be sufficient (has been proven to be sufficient).. Some people like a very minimalist setup in that they want very little rock in the tank.. Those people can benefit the most from additional "stuff" in the sump that increases surface area.. As stated "blocks/bricks" have become the latest "got to have" things to increase surface area and they do quite well at it..They are a foamed ceramic and can have substantial surface area.. __________________ Who me?

04/23/2018, 06:29 AM	#5
dougs280z Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 13	Ok thanks for the input. What about the need for the bio wheel or bio-balls. Is it correct that the live rock/sand is the only real biological filtration needed? Would it benefit me to put some bioballs in the sump? Thanks again.

04/23/2018, 07:04 AM	#8
dougs280z Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 13	Thanks, thats what I was thinking and I'll be glad to get rid of the HOB filter. I originally set it up without the sump which is why i had it there, but then I just kept it there after the sump was installed. One more question. I never had sand in my sump, but would you recommend adding some or is it not beneficial in the sump? I usually had a lot of extra live rock in there but I'd be ok with adding some additional sand if it's beneficial.

04/23/2018, 07:17 AM	#9
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Most people don't put sand in the sump but again it can serve to add surface area for bacteria.. Personally anything that "traps" detritus in a sump is a negative to me... I prefer to have it be able to flow freely through the sump and be returned to the display to be food for filter feeders,coral,etc... I also like to be able to vacuum my sump if needed and just give it a total cleaning down to the glass/acrylic bottom.. __________________ Who me?