Lanthanum chloride

[SkiFletch]

Curiosity killed the researcher, what concentration is yours Gary?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by jansenwrasse
Per the MSDS from the company it is 35-65% Lanthanum salt derivative.

that's product concentration. (Seems highly variable, eh?)

I dilute 5 ml. of the Seaklear product into litre of RO water and dose slowly over the course of an hour or two.
Fast dosing of concentrated (undiluted) Lanthanum chloride should be avoided IMO/IME.

[SkiFletch]

Interesting, I've been doing 0.5ml shots of it straight into my filter sock daily and haven't had much trouble. Then again, water is swirling like crazy in my sock so diffusion is certainly quick. Corals still loving it, nuisance algae is MUCH slower. Still there, but now managable.

[m-fine]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
(Seems highly variable, eh?)

I think they are only required to report a range because of the hazard level. The product itself is likely way more consistant than that.

[jansenwrasse]

Most likely in the lower 10% range 35-45%. Also note for some reason my finger hits 2 when it is supposed to hit 3 ... its LnCl3.

Gary have you checked the pH after dosing? I am wondering if the pH rises to any significant level in your size tank.

Great thread!

[Gary Majchrzak]

I'll have to monitor pH closely next time I dose.

This might sound strange... but I've been basing my dosing regime on the size of my Lawnmower Blenny's belly.
If it starts getting too thin I skip a treatment.
I've had this Blenny since I set up the aquarium (over 3 years) and it eats microalgae exclusively.

[tmz]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
I'll have to monitor pH closely next time I dose.

This might sound strange... but I've been basing my dosing regime on the size of my Lawnmower Blenny's belly.
If it starts getting too thin I skip a treatment.
I've had this Blenny since I set up the aquarium (over 3 years) and it eats microalgae exclusively.

That is probably a lot more accurate than many test kits and monitors.

[jansenwrasse]

I remember a post when Gary stated that he could gague when to dose Ca and Alk based on how noisy his pumps were.

15+ years experience just can't be replaced with anything.

Could you immagine his wife, staring at Gary looking intently at his fish then runs for some random chemical and a filter bag, only to watch him drip this stuff ever so slowly, then change the bag again, I know i'd be saying " sooo ... what did the little fishy tell you to do? "

We love you Gary

[Gary Majchrzak]

when the wife gets preoccupied with other things make your move. Never place a new coral, fish or Berghia in the aquarium while anyone is watching and never reveal how much anything costs.

[tmz]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
when the wife gets preoccupied with other things make your move. Never place a new coral, fish or Berghia in the aquarium while anyone is watching and never reveal how much anything costs.

I almost always talk about trades or the few pieces I sell but almost never what I buy. They just seem to appear in the aquarium,evoving from the rock.

[tmz]

Aferthought. Three weeks ago, I acutualy brought a new asm 4x skimmer in the house ,got it down the basement, in the sump next to the first one and running and disposed of the packaging unseen while my wife was home. Later that eveneing she came down and kept looking at the sumps which she never does. Either she couldn't remember if they were both there or she was too kind to give me a hard time about it.Probably the later.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by jansenwrasse
Gary have you checked the pH after dosing? I am wondering if the pH rises to any significant level in your size tank.

I monitored pH during this mornings treatment (performed as described in this thread) and there was no significant change in pH

Tom- I hear ya. I recently managed to sneak a 2 x 400w PFO ballast into the house

[m-fine]

What those old things? You have had those for years!

[Conesus_Kid]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
I recently managed to sneak a 2 x 400w PFO ballast into the house

"What's that tucked under your shirt??!?!"

"Nothing, dear."






This phosphate removal technique appears to be a winner. I've read that melev goes this route as well. When I run out of GFO, I'll be joining the club.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I wasn't aware Marc was using this stuff. I wonder if his dosage or technique is different from mine. I'll have to search.

Meanwhile- Icecap has repaired my ballast and it works fine so I need to hook up with you Scott.

[Conesus_Kid]

Gary-

Check the third post down from the top here.

No hurry on the ballast. I can work around your schedule, especially if you're around between Christmas and New Year's.

[Gary Majchrzak]

back on topic:

I believe dosing Lanthanum chloride might be affecting the health of my tridacna clam. It would make sense. Tridacna are probably one of the most sensitive filter feeding reef organisms.
Lawnmower Blenny is very skinny today but hanging in there.
Everything else looks great.

[melev]

Thanks for the link, Gary.

When I stated that I'm using Lanthanum chloride, it isn't the stuff you buy at the pool store. As you pointed to earlier, there is a beautiful public aquarium using it that I found via Google myself.

Both Phosbuster Pro (Caribsea) and Phosphate Control (Blue Life USA) contain Lanthanum chloride, and both are very easy to dose to your tank. The former is a bottle you pour in (one bottle treats 250g), the latter you add in an area of high flow drop by drop.

According to the bottle's instructions (Blue Life), 6 drops per 10 gallons will drop PO4 1ppm. The new version they released (in a box rather than a tube, the instructions varied and it states 6 drops in 10 gallons will drop it .05ppm. I don't know if that means they diluted the product or not though.

Also, it states clearly on both that cloudiness is to be expected, and that it will clear within 24 hours. For me, I always dose late at night when the fish are sleeping, as their respiration should be at its lowest then. The next morning, the tank is crystal clear and the skimmer's cup is full of skimmate with a white tinge to it.

I don't use filter socks in my system at all.

I had a theory that if this stuff works so nicely, it would be ideal if we could just drip in one drop at a time into the skimmer itself, and let it skim PO4 right out of the water instead of turning the tank cloudy. The method would take longer, since you couldn't dose everything at once, but rather would be treating the water volume in the skimmer body. You'd be dosing it all day long to pull it off though.

For specifics, I dose my tank with 120 drops, and it knocks the PO4 to 0 overnight. The only livestock in my tank that seems affected are the Lavendar Frilly mushrooms. They really hate it, but since I have too many of them, I don't really mind causing them a little discomfort. Within 48 hours, they are back to normal again. 120 drops is what I would need to drop .5 ppm of PO4 in 400g of water. I probably could get by with less since my PO4 doesn't get above .25 anymore.

Dosing occurs as needed, rather than a specific amount of drops weekly. I'd guess I dose the reef about every 6 weeks, based on test kit results taken first.

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanks for chiming in here, Marc.
It will be interesting to find out all of the differences between the product marketed for the aquarium industry and the one marketed for the pool industry. I have a very strong hunch the main difference is price.
Dosing into a 10 micron sock gives results very similar to dosing into a sand filter (like the public aquariums do). The combination of 10 micron filter and protein skimmer is more effective at removing precip than running just the skimmer alone IME. The 10 micron filter also allows you to monitor cloudiness.
Contact time makes a difference- dosing the PO4 remover into the display's drains allows it to mix with tankwater through 10 ft. of plumbing before dumping it into the 10 micron filter bag (or skimmer) in the sump. This results in a very efficient use of the product while minimalizing tank cloudiness. The filter bag appears to mysteriously blow up like a balloon as precip clogs it's pores.
My skimmer picks up residual missed by the 10 micron filter and a fine, clean, clear to white foamhead develops during and after a treatment.
If I see cloudiness escaping through the 10 micron filter I stop treatment and resume it at a later point in time.
This obviously works for reducing phosphates. The jury is still out on any long term harm that might become of this.

I need to talk to a few folks about their clams.

[melev]

The T. maxima in my tank never seem affected by the treatments. None of the livestock seems bothered, but the next time I dose I'll look more carefully at each item to see if I've overlooked any animals.

[Gary Majchrzak]

this method of phosphate reduction isn't well known yet

I'm sure it will be once word gets out AND long term use proves it to be safe. My clam thing may or may not be related- only time (and other's experiences) will tell.
No doubt certain (Acanthurus) Tangs breathe heavier and act erratic during a dosage that's too quick and/or too concentrated.
One thing's for sure- my stony corals benefit from a reduction of phosphates.

[SkiFletch]

Gary, what specific trouble are you having with your Maxima? My T. crocea sometimes develops discoloration of its mantle since I've been dosing lanthanum, and sometimes not... Curious if that's the problem yours has, or something else?

[Gary Majchrzak]

my crocea goes from really spectacular (fully open and colorful) to crappy and "pinched" looking. I've been dealing with clams in my systems for a long time. Something is weird with this- trust me.

[SkiFletch]

Hummm, ok, well that's not the same behavior mine has. Every now and again the mantle will get "blotchy" for lack of a better term, but it never gets really bad and it never pinches that's for sure.

[tmz]

Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some. I have read threads describing pinched mantle on clams in tanks where fast phosphate reductions occured with gfo. So it may be possible your clam is reacting to a rapid change in orthophosphate levels.