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Unread 03/26/2015, 04:16 PM   #1251
Koistone
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My interest in reducing PO4 levels is focused on controlling (limiting) string algae. The conventional wisdom in the koikeeping hobby is that control of nitrate levels combined with shading of the pond has been 'the way' to deal with excessive filamentous algae. Except, of course, that this approach fails as much as it ever succeeds. My studies have led me to conclude that the so-called successes were as likely instances of population maturity and seasonal factors leading to population decline. Cladaphora is quite capable of abundant growth in low nitrogen environments. Phosphorous has been established as the limiting nutrient in a number of studies of Cladaphora in lake and natural pond environments. Koi foods add substantial amounts of phosphate on a continual basis, which means it would never be practical to accomplish the low PO4 levels sought for a reef tank. But, koikeepers are not adverse to the presence of algae per se. A carpet of algae covering pond walls is even desired (to some extent). Seasonally, however, even the best maintained ponds can experience extreme blooms of string algae (hair algae), with plumes several feet long. This extreme algae growth results in filter blockages and increased work to maintain water quality. The situation is being aggravated by increasing water restrictions around the country from California to Florida. I personally use around 20,000 gallons of water per month for water changes on a 12,500 gallon pond. Some using a continual flow of fresh water would consume twice as much for the same sized pond. There is growing interest in 'rejuvenating' water by chemical means to reduce the amount of new water used. In some locales, the monthly water bill of a serious koikeeper exceeds household electric expense.

...An overly long reply to a simple question.

Somewhat more to topic, are you aware of verified instances of LC use adversely affecting fish well-being? In the koi pond, I would expect precipitates to be captured in the short filaments of algae in the pond and be consumed as koi mouth the algae to reach the insect larvae and other forms of life inhabiting the filaments. So, impacts on the gills from precipitate in the water column is one concern. Impacts from consumption is another.


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Unread 03/27/2015, 06:47 AM   #1252
tmz
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I have personally observed a yellow tang drop and die after swimming through a light cloud of precipitant. Fast dosing and a lack of filtration in salt water aquarium use can be lethal to some marine fish.

I don't know if the fish reactions are from clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills and/ or from ingestion.

Chemical reactions may be different in fresh water given the low levels of carbonate relative to salt water and gill sensitivity might be different for koi. I don't know if the fish reactions are limited to clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills or from ingestion.

Are any other koi keepers using it for algae control?


Fast dosing and a lack of filtration in salt water aquarium use can be lethal to some marine fish.


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Unread 03/27/2015, 08:26 AM   #1253
Koistone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmz View Post
***Are any other koi keepers using it for algae control? ***
I am not aware of it being used by anyone. There have been a number of bottled concoctions come on the market in the past few years aimed at pondkeepers in general. The ingredients are typically not disclosed. I suspect many are formulations using aluminium oxide, which has something of a mixed record due to dramatic pH affects. I am attempting gather experience with these various products (from pondkeepers), but thus far have found no useful experience by serious koikeepers..... We tend to avoid the fads of the day. So many have proved useless or cause as much harm as any benefit. Marketing so often overrides full disclosure.


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Unread 03/27/2015, 10:55 AM   #1254
Gary Majchrzak
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I've seen serious damage done with the mis-use of many chemicals- including LC.
Can it kill? Sure!
The destruction I've seen was not from ingestion but rather how Tom (tmz) just described it..
directly related to improper use of LC.

Ironically enough there are freshwater and marine species of Cladophora.
Cladophora is probably the most difficult marine algae to remove from a reef aquarium, IME.
Personally, I use LC to bring PO4 levels down from extremely high levels for scleractinian growth- not to defeat algae.
IME it's much more effective to bring PO4 levels down to extremely low levels using granulated ferric oxide (gfo in the reef hobby).
Check out the Long Island Aquarium.
Joe Yaiullo uses LC on his extremely heavily fed 20,000 gallon reef display which is one of the finest in the world. LC is also used in penguin and marine mammal displays around the world. Isn't it also used on humans during kidney dialysis treatments?
I would think it safe for Koi as long as administerd properly but I would certainly love to hear from anyone using it for this purpose successfully!

All PO4 adsorbing materials affect pH to my knowledge- -not just aluminum oxide... which is also used in reef aquaria to reduce PO4


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Unread 03/28/2015, 06:39 AM   #1255
Koistone
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There are reasons Cladaphora is so difficult. My reading on it has been largely limited to freshwater. A couple of years ago I gathered together a summary, posted at: http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-f...ing-algae.html

I expect the marine forms have the same or analogous traits.

Thanks for input. ....Hoping for some more.


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Unread 04/24/2015, 06:54 AM   #1256
Gary Majchrzak
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update

I finally finished off the bottle of LC started at the top of this thread!

After a brief hiatus from LC I've broken into a second bottle.


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Unread 04/24/2015, 05:16 PM   #1257
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Wow...I was in early on the LC experiment too! I was also talking crazy talk about "carbon dosing" on post #7. I think my 180 came down soon after the start of the LC thread.

John


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Unread 04/24/2015, 06:56 PM   #1258
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Time flies!
Are you currently using either method now, John?


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Unread 04/25/2015, 05:22 AM   #1259
drtango
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I'm dosing vinegar as a carbon source along with a little GFO, no need for LC at this point...but my tank is an infant, not a teenager!


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Unread 04/25/2015, 06:10 AM   #1260
Gary Majchrzak
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Understood completely here


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Unread 06/08/2015, 07:57 PM   #1261
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My local Wally World has Clorox pool and spa phosphate remover. It sells for just under $9 for 1qt. Thinking of using it if I can find out if it's lacl, which I believe it to be. I just want to be sure. The msds doesn't list ingredients as most others do not either. Any help????


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Unread 06/09/2015, 03:48 AM   #1262
michael guenther
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[QUOTE=michael guenther;21976504]result aftter using the 10% lacl3.
dilute 4 liter RO water with 3 ml of lacl3, one drop a second for 24 hour,po4 from 0.79 to 0.53 with normal 50 micron socks.
no harm to fish or coral[/QUOt

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70088

Ok, long time no see.
This is my primitive lanthanum reactor, which I use for 5 Mons and radius po4 from 1.40 to o.35.
After a break of 6 Mons, the po4 rise again to 1.40, but I must mention that my aquarium 1s 16 years old. Now I think not to stop it, but dilute the concentration much lower for longer time.



Last edited by michael guenther; 06/09/2015 at 04:26 AM.
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Unread 07/02/2015, 08:33 AM   #1263
nottarts23
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seaklear commercial phosphate vs seaklear phosphate cr

I have found out the hard way that you need to look at product descriptions as well as pictures when ordering thru amazon. I was sent the commercial bottle of the seaklear remover. It is my understanding that it 3x stronger vs the regular CR bottle.

I was hoping someone has used the commericial version of seaklear phosphate remover and provide a quick dosing guide. how many MLs of commercial to treat 150 gallon system?

Thanks,


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Unread 07/02/2015, 09:18 AM   #1264
michael guenther
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o.k, first we in Israel have no Commercial version of seaklear, so i order thru Allibaba the chemical lanthanum chloride and dilute 100 gram with 1 liter RO water, it means 10% solution. from this i take 3 ml. in 1 liter RO water with a dosing pump thru my d.i.y reactor for 24 h.
the point is to keep the process very slowly.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70256
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70257


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Unread 07/02/2015, 11:51 AM   #1265
marinelife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nottarts23 View Post
I have found out the hard way that you need to look at product descriptions as well as pictures when ordering thru amazon. I was sent the commercial bottle of the seaklear remover. It is my understanding that it 3x stronger vs the regular CR bottle.

I was hoping someone has used the commericial version of seaklear phosphate remover and provide a quick dosing guide. how many MLs of commercial to treat 150 gallon system?

Thanks,
The Commercial version is the best one to have.

5ml to 1 litre water


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Unread 07/20/2015, 01:27 AM   #1266
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Tried LC to lower my phosphates.. I was battling hair algae in my sand.. had a low PO4 reading 0.18 but very very bad hair algae.. started dosing a while back, i did not dose religiously.. from 0.18, it will read 0.13 in my HANNA po4. I use 2mL Seaklear CR to 1.5L. I'm not sure this is the correct ratio but works for me. The hair algae slowly disappeared and i dosed again this weekend and from 0.11, my hanna read 0.00. I added GFO in a mesh bag and will test again next week.


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Unread 07/20/2015, 10:31 AM   #1267
tmz
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I'd watch the corals closely; a drop to 0 PO4 might be hard on them. You may not need the gfo. If paling occurs ; conseder backing off a little on PO4 removal.


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Unread 09/16/2015, 07:45 PM   #1268
Tigé21v
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Sorry if this question has been covered, but is it common ( or has anyone experienced) an increase in algae growth when beginning to dose LaCl?
Dosing schedule I started about a week ago:
1:100 dilution of LaCl
1.1ml every 15 minutes into a 30 gallon container. The container has a 3000 gph powerhead aimed towards the area where the LaCl enters the water. Lots of turbulent flow. The container is fed by a maxijet 1200 (guessing around 150-200gph?)
Overflow from container then flows through a 5 micron sock.
Same feeding schedule/amounts.
Since starting, I've noticed an increase in all algae growth over the last few days. The P04 level hasn't changed too much, about .02. NO3 levels also haven't really changed either, though they have always been low (.5 or less). But definitely an increase in algae growth.
Any thoughts on why this would be the case? Would binding the inorganic phosphates allow the organic phosphates to be more readily available? And does algae have a preference to one form of phosphate over the other?
And while I'm at it, how long does it take LaCl to react with phosphates? Would I gain anything if I put the container's feed pump on a timer and had it synced with the LaCl drip so that it would shut off for five minutes or so after the drip, giving the LaCl time to work on a given amount of water? Then fire the pump back up to exchange the water in the container with more water?
TIA


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Unread 10/02/2015, 07:03 AM   #1269
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When I used LC, I mixed 5ml to 2 gal and dripped using a doser on my controller over a two day period though a 5 micron filter sock.

I have a 5 gal bucket plumbed into my drain. part of the water is diverted into the bucket, the LC drip is fed into the bucket to allow some additional dwell time tio bind prior to exiting the bucket and into the filter sock. I was concerned the free LC wouldn't bind, exit the filter sock and enter my system.

After a few doses over a month, my PO4 was undetectable, but all of my expensive 2" GF valves are stuck. I beleive the LC effected this as they were always free from Ca for years and worked perfectly.

What did I miss in the set up or dosing procedures?

BTW, the system is 280G


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Unread 10/02/2015, 01:19 PM   #1270
tmz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigé21v View Post
Sorry if this question has been covered, but is it common ( or has anyone experienced) an increase in algae growth when beginning to dose LaCl?
Dosing schedule I started about a week ago:
1:100 dilution of LaCl
1.1ml every 15 minutes into a 30 gallon container. The container has a 3000 gph powerhead aimed towards the area where the LaCl enters the water. Lots of turbulent flow. The container is fed by a maxijet 1200 (guessing around 150-200gph?)
Overflow from container then flows through a 5 micron sock.
Same feeding schedule/amounts.
Since starting, I've noticed an increase in all algae growth over the last few days. The P04 level hasn't changed too much, about .02. NO3 levels also haven't really changed either, though they have always been low (.5 or less). But definitely an increase in algae growth.
Any thoughts on why this would be the case?

Don't know; never had that experience when I dosed it. Could be some competitors for nutrients like phytoplankton need less PO4 than whatever algae is waxing( some algae oligotrophic types can thrive in low nutrient water). Perhaps the rock is leaching back some bound PO4 species with less PO4 in the water give an advange to algae there.

It's also cinceivable with low PO4 that the lanthanum is binding mostly carbonate reducing the alkalinity ( I'd check it) and/or PH favoring certain species of alge over other competitors.

Would binding the inorganic phosphates allow the organic phosphates to be more readily available? And does algae have a preference to one form of phosphate over the other?

I don't think so,generally. Some types may be able to access soluble reactive phosaaphte( including organic phosphate more easily).

Depends on the algae and /or bacterial enzymes in play.


And while I'm at it, how long does it take LaCl to react with phosphates?

It clouds instantlly as it precipitates as lanthanum phosaphate and/or lanthanum carbonate. Some free lanthanum likely escapes when PO4 is scarce though.

Would I gain anything if I put the container's feed pump on a timer and had it synced with the LaCl drip so that it would shut off for five minutes or so after the drip, giving the LaCl time to work on a given amount of water? Then fire the pump back up to exchange the water in the container with more water?


Probably not. That would likely result in more lanthaum carbonate and less lanthanum phosphate precipitating. Lanthanum has limits in salt water in terms of PO4 reduction . When PO4 is sparse more of it it binds with carbonate. Lanthanum is smaller than water molecules; so, any free lanthanum will pass through any filter water passes through. Perhaps some precipitant in the tank is fueling certain algae
TIA



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Unread 10/03/2015, 04:27 AM   #1271
michael guenther
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[QUOTE=michael guenther;23797732]
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael guenther View Post
result aftter using the 10% lacl3.
dilute 4 liter RO water with 3 ml of lacl3, one drop a second for 24 hour,po4 from 0.79 to 0.53 with normal 50 micron socks.
no harm to fish or coral[/QUOt

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70088

Ok, long time no see.
This is my primitive lanthanum reactor, which I use for 5 Mons and radius po4 from 1.40 to o.35.
After a break of 6 Mons, the po4 rise again to 1.40, but I must mention that my aquarium 1s 16 years old. Now I think not to stop it, but dilute the concentration much lower for longer time.
another 4 month go by and still running high po4, a few question: first have cl powder limited period of affectionately, second dilute cl loose affectionately, even when store in a black jar.
the reactor i build have no valve or pump(see picture)the water go's in it thru the main pump and the cl thru a dosing pump
.
never had any problem with algae from any kind


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Unread 11/23/2015, 11:53 PM   #1272
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Finally finished reading the 50 page novel. Quite a read!! To all the people who ask the same questions over and over, I applaud the patience of Gary and others. So at the risk of being one of those people, here goes! Have had 180 tank mixed reef up and running for 9 years. Never had issues until this last year after I mechanically scrubbed all my LR to get rid of encrusting build up on rocks (brownish crap, not coralline but did have some of that too). That started a bad breakout of long stringy GHA, which I havent had since my initial cycle. My thought was I released a bunch of bound up phospates. Have done lots of water change since, have large thriving cheato, skim heavily, but have now been fighting this stuff for 9 months. Every 2-3 weeks siphon out the GHA with heavy 1/4 inch plastic tube and do 20% WC. I was about ready to break down my tank chocking it up to old tank syndrome until i found this thread.

So I purchased commercial Seaklear, 5 micron bags and a hanna phospate tester. Before i started checked my phospates twice and both tmes 0.0. I know I have phosphates with the amount of GHA i harvest, so assumed its not in the WC and being consumed by GHA. I treated 2 sessions of 5ml in 1 liter RODI for a total of 10 ml in 2 liters over a 30+ hour timeframe dripping with BRS dosing pumps directly into 5 micron filter bag. Made sure my alkilinty was increased during the LC dosing. Tank showed no signs of distess and 5 micron filter did collect brownish stuff and filled up 3/4 but never overflowed even after adding 10ml in about a 24 hour period. Skimmer collected cosiderable greyish fluid while being set pretty wet. Never saw any white clouds or precipitate in the tank.

So here is my question. With Hannah low tester saying phoshates are zero in the water column, how is LC really pulling out the phosphate if its bound up in my LR and trapped in the GHA? Do I keep dosing until GHA starts dying off? I am fearful that since phosphates are registering 0.0 in my test that the LC doesn't have enough phospate to react with and some may be going straight into my tank escaping through the 5 micron filter. Guess i was expecting my phosphates to be off the chart and my filter bag to be clogging in a couple hours given all the GHA i have been battling. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark


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Unread 11/24/2015, 12:07 AM   #1273
Aiptasia King
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Finally finished reading the 50 page novel. Quite a read!! To all the people who ask the same questions over and over, I applaud the patience of Gary and others. So at the risk of being one of those people, here goes! Have had 180 tank mixed reef up and running for 9 years. Never had issues until this last year after I mechanically scrubbed all my LR to get rid of encrusting build up on rocks (brownish crap, not coralline but did have some of that too). That started a bad breakout of long stringy GHA, which I havent had since my initial cycle. My thought was I released a bunch of bound up phospates. Have done lots of water change since, have large thriving cheato, skim heavily, but have now been fighting this stuff for 9 months. Every 2-3 weeks siphon out the GHA with heavy 1/4 inch plastic tube and do 20% WC. I was about ready to break down my tank chocking it up to old tank syndrome until i found this thread.

So I purchased commercial Seaklear, 5 micron bags and a hanna phospate tester. Before i started checked my phospates twice and both tmes 0.0. I know I have phosphates with the amount of GHA i harvest, so assumed its not in the WC and being consumed by GHA. I treated 2 sessions of 5ml in 1 liter RODI for a total of 10 ml in 2 liters over a 30+ hour timeframe dripping with BRS dosing pumps directly into 5 micron filter bag. Made sure my alkilinty was increased during the LC dosing. Tank showed no signs of distess and 5 micron filter did collect brownish stuff and filled up 3/4 but never overflowed even after adding 10ml in about a 24 hour period. Skimmer collected cosiderable greyish fluid while being set pretty wet. Never saw any white clouds or precipitate in the tank.

So here is my question. With Hannah low tester saying phoshates are zero in the water column, how is LC really pulling out the phosphate if its bound up in my LR and trapped in the GHA? Do I keep dosing until GHA starts dying off? I am fearful that since phosphates are registering 0.0 in my test that the LC doesn't have enough phospate to react with and some may be going straight into my tank escaping through the 5 micron filter. Guess i was expecting my phosphates to be off the chart and my filter bag to be clogging in a couple hours given all the GHA i have been battling. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark


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Unread 11/24/2015, 07:16 AM   #1274
Gary Majchrzak
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I suggest at least a 2 prong attack

Get herbivores and keep po4 low.
It sounds like you could really use a long spine urchin to open up rock surface.
And patience.
This really works.


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Unread 11/24/2015, 07:51 AM   #1275
Aiptasia King
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak View Post
Get herbivores and keep po4 low.
It sounds like you could really use a long spine urchin to open up rock surface.
And patience.
This really works.
Gary.....thanks for responding. Good call on long spine urchin. May get a couple. So how often would you recommend I dose the 5ml in 1 liter RODI slow drip? Everyday? Every other day? Couple times a week?

I am patient and will win this war!


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