FOWLR or FWLRAOS?

inetmug · 04/16/2014, 07:55 PM

Question, am I Fish Only with live Rock (FOWLR), or am I Fish With Live Rock and Other Stuff (FWLRAOS)?

Meaning, I have fish, live rock/sand, crabs, serpent stars, banded corals shrimp, but no soft corals. Or at least no corals but soft ones that I can legally collect for personal use in the FL Keys. But usually the Angels wind up nibbling them away. Does this mean I am FOWLR, or am I reef?

I consider myself a newbie, but not a complete newbie. I had/have a 55 FWLRAOS for several years successfully (for the most part). I used to have a built in reef master in my college buddy but he unfortunately passed suddenly in October. So I inherited his 250-300 gallon acrylic tank and stuff. So now I am on my own, and with one big arse tank.

The way the tank was set up for dead rock, sand, fish, some invertebrates, illumination lighting only, a protein skimmer, and an AQUA UV unit. It was clean, but not serviced by his widow.

I moved the tank with the help of a small village 1O days ago hoping to get it set up in one day. However, as luck would have it, we busted a fitting on the sump, and it was sunday, so we were SOL. I decided to slow things down, take a close look at all the core components as to not flood my house by hokey setup. Good call, as there were other fittings that were questionable. Me thinks my bud was on the verge of a flood, and good thing we got it out of there. The components are sound, it was just the way it was put together that was hokey in some places.

So we kept the sand in buckets, and the rock in coolers with saltwater on it. But realistically it could be another week before I start this thing up. I was planning to use the dead rock and sand, and then colonize it with the live rock and sand from my 55 gallon (which is all nice and purple and sweet). I am sure the dead rock, meaning not purple, and the sand have plenty of bacteria in it, the tank was up for years.

So my current questions are:

1) What should I do with the live rock sitting in fairly stagnant saltwater, should I wash it, dry it, an then use it? Should I put in a light bleach solution first, then rinse it?
2) Same with the sand, what should I do it it? Run a hose in the bucket with FW till it runs clean?
3) Should I use the UV system at all, and if so, I heard not during startup.

Given the time that has elapsed since my first mission, I am trying to not have a nitrate breakout from hell.

Thanks in advance.

FTDelta · 04/16/2014, 09:02 PM

FWLRAOS???? No such term in the world of saltwater aquaria Only FOWLR or REEF. Reef is with corals. What livestock you add is irrellevent.

DO NOT clean or wash LR with bleach! Otherwise you will kill everything on it. Cure your rock.

Rinse sand with tap water.

A UV sterilizer is not a must-have. It doesn't prevent ich in fish or in the tank.

Nitrates will always be there during a cycle. A typical cycle last anywhere from 8 - 12 weeks depending on the quality of your LR. Providing you don't do something stupid like clean your LR with bleach and kill everything beneficial on it.

Read the stickies in these forums before going further.

inetmug · 04/16/2014, 09:44 PM

Thanks for the reply. I took your advice and went hunting and found several sources of information for this rock. No real sticky threads on the subject.

The sand I am clear on. Thank you.

Ok, so I "had" cured rock from my buds tank (when I called it dead, I meant colorless cause he had only illumination lights). I will make an assumption that dead rock is just that, rock that had no life on it either due to the fact it never had life on it, or all life has expired.

According to several sources, the definition of cured rock is rock that does not smell, and have had everything that died on it cycled, and new life has begun.

I can see that I should put this rock from the coolers into a large clean garbage can, fill it with fresh SW, put a pump in it to keep it moving. And do lots of water changes. Should have done that the first day. I also have seen rock come in wet, shipped, and I understand the ammonia spike.

I see lots of threads that say "clean it", but clean it with what? I see several that refer to an "acid bath". Would that not kill everything on it? Effectively, if one was to bleach it, or soak in fresh water, or leave it out to dry in the sun for months, you are starting back with 100% non-cured dead rock?

So my core question really is, given my situation,.... which is.... I had cured rock, I now have 10 day old cured rock, kept in non-ideal situation, so now I got smelly rock (probably somewhat live), what would be the best course of action?

It seems given my circumstance I should clean it to remove any dead stuff, but does that mean using an acid bath?

Them I should put it in my clean garbage cans, fill hem with fresh SW, put a pump in there, and do a change every few days, until the rocks no longer smell like kaka, until I have them "re-cured". I have no lights nor protein skimmer for this. One of my tanks is on wheels, I could put it outside in the sunlight?

After the rocks no longer smell, start the big tank, just with the rock, and let it cycle for a few weeks with everything running?

sound like a plan?

FTDelta · 04/17/2014, 09:06 AM

Clean it using a stiff brush to remove unwanted algae and whatnot. Don't do an acid bath. Another way of cleaning it is put it under straight up freshwater. Who knows, you might find some unwanted hitch hikers (ie: mantis shrimp, gorilla crabs, etc...) make a bee line out of their hidy holes.

G_Sanab922 · 04/17/2014, 09:29 AM

+1 rinse sand with tap.
You wouldn't need a UV yet either.
Yea don't do an acid bath if you want to keep them live.

Where in the keys are you?? I'm in key largo.

inetmug · 04/17/2014, 06:46 PM

I live in Merritt Island. But I got to the keys occasionally. My buddy was an expert (and very legal) collector for our own use. He knew it all.

We used to collect also in west palm and as far north as Sebastian. You can get a lot of nice fish in Vero and south, but better invertebrates and the minimal legal soft corals in the keys. Just quarantine the fish, and we never had an issue.

Yeah, I am going to clean it via a stiff plastic brush, put it in fresh SW with a pump, and let them go for about 10-14 days. With a water change every day, then every few days. Ready to let this sucker begin!

G_Sanab922 · 04/18/2014, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inetmug

I live in Merritt Island. But I got to the keys occasionally. My buddy was an expert (and very legal) collector for our own use. He knew it all.

We used to collect also in west palm and as far north as Sebastian. You can get a lot of nice fish in Vero and south, but better invertebrates and the minimal legal soft corals in the keys. Just quarantine the fish, and we never had an issue.

Yeah, I am going to clean it via a stiff plastic brush, put it in fresh SW with a pump, and let them go for about 10-14 days. With a water change every day, then every few days. Ready to let this sucker begin!

Nice, yea we have some nice corals and fish here. I'm actually starting to familiarize myself with the regulations so that in the near future I can start trying to catch. Been down here all my life, so I can ID most of our fishies and corals.
Glad to hear you guys know what you are doing and do it the legal way. Sad to say that there are people that don't obey these laws, which leads to less growth. Thanks for the tips btw.
Looking forward to seeing this new tank up and running. And sorry to hear about your friend.

inetmug · 05/05/2014, 08:03 AM

We would do the prazipro treatment for "gill flukes", I think that is right term. They can be there especially is you get stuff out of the sargasm weed floating. I had the coolest filefish, but it got infected and did not last.

Then we would copper.

Never an issue after this. If you would like to hop on the boat I will give you a jingle. I have commercial fishing licenses, so I would never take a chance on illegal collection period, got too much to lose. Not that I would over collect anyway. I am also a sportsman.

My friend left me a literal library of books. Everything from tank construction to keeping. Over time I hope to get it consumed.

ca1ore · 05/05/2014, 08:09 AM

Seems to me most FOWLR are actually FOWDR, or at least they start out that way. No reason not to add OS as long as the tank has the right support environment (e.g. skimmer, appropriate lighting, etc.); or the OS will become DOS (D = dead). I actually ran a FOWLRaLHA for while (Fish only with live rock and large hosting anemone

). Anemone was tougher on the fish then they were on the anemone.

ca1ore · 05/05/2014, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTDelta

FWLRAOS???? No such term in the world of saltwater aquaria Only FOWLR or REEF.

If you go to Wash DC and visit the Federal Aquarium Administration building; right past the Tang Police Department there is a Naming Convention Registration Department that sanctions such things - essentially entering them into the lexicon of acceptable terms ..... or maybe somebody just made up the term FOWLR

G_Sanab922 · 05/06/2014, 07:35 AM

[QUOTE=inetmug;22731190] They can be there especially is you get stuff out of the sargasm weed floating. I had the coolest filefish, but it got infected and did not last.
QUOTE]

Been dying to do this! Went mahi fishing yesterday and saw weed everywhere. I'm think of getting some next time I go out. What else have you got from the weed? And what area are you in, if I may ask?

inetmug · 05/06/2014, 12:11 PM

[QUOTE=G_Sanab922;22734591]

Quote:

Originally Posted by inetmug

They can be there especially is you get stuff out of the sargasm weed floating. I had the coolest filefish, but it got infected and did not last.
QUOTE]

Been dying to do this! Went mahi fishing yesterday and saw weed everywhere. I'm think of getting some next time I go out. What else have you got from the weed? And what area are you in, if I may ask?

The filefish can not take much current. Good choice for a seahorse/pipefish setup. Lots of little crabs and fish in there, excellent ground for fish to breed and grow. That is why its bad the Japs are out there scooping the stuff up for cosmetics.

I live in Merritt Island, home port is Port Canaveral. I am trailer bound so I fish and dive from Daytona to WPB.

G_Sanab922 · 05/06/2014, 01:40 PM

[QUOTE=inetmug;22735415]

Quote:

Originally Posted by G_Sanab922

The filefish can not take much current. Good choice for a seahorse/pipefish setup. Lots of little crabs and fish in there, excellent ground for fish to breed and grow. That is why its bad the Japs are out there scooping the stuff up for cosmetics.

I live in Merritt Island, home port is Port Canaveral. I am trailer bound so I fish and dive from Daytona to WPB.

Cool, yea everytime I pick one up and jiggle it, I always find a crab, baby fish or shrimp.. A baby flyfish actually jumped in my boat yesterday, almost took him home but decided to just let him go lol. I'll see if I can upload a pic. It was cool looking.

Nice area! I'm going up there actually for a weekend getaway on the beach. For 4th of July weekend.

G_Sanab922 · 05/06/2014, 01:42 PM

G_Sanab922 · 05/06/2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G_Sanab922

04/16/2014, 07:55 PM	#1
inetmug Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 693	FOWLR or FWLRAOS? Question, am I Fish Only with live Rock (FOWLR), or am I Fish With Live Rock and Other Stuff (FWLRAOS)? Meaning, I have fish, live rock/sand, crabs, serpent stars, banded corals shrimp, but no soft corals. Or at least no corals but soft ones that I can legally collect for personal use in the FL Keys. But usually the Angels wind up nibbling them away. Does this mean I am FOWLR, or am I reef? I consider myself a newbie, but not a complete newbie. I had/have a 55 FWLRAOS for several years successfully (for the most part). I used to have a built in reef master in my college buddy but he unfortunately passed suddenly in October. So I inherited his 250-300 gallon acrylic tank and stuff. So now I am on my own, and with one big arse tank. The way the tank was set up for dead rock, sand, fish, some invertebrates, illumination lighting only, a protein skimmer, and an AQUA UV unit. It was clean, but not serviced by his widow. I moved the tank with the help of a small village 1O days ago hoping to get it set up in one day. However, as luck would have it, we busted a fitting on the sump, and it was sunday, so we were SOL. I decided to slow things down, take a close look at all the core components as to not flood my house by hokey setup. Good call, as there were other fittings that were questionable. Me thinks my bud was on the verge of a flood, and good thing we got it out of there. The components are sound, it was just the way it was put together that was hokey in some places. So we kept the sand in buckets, and the rock in coolers with saltwater on it. But realistically it could be another week before I start this thing up. I was planning to use the dead rock and sand, and then colonize it with the live rock and sand from my 55 gallon (which is all nice and purple and sweet). I am sure the dead rock, meaning not purple, and the sand have plenty of bacteria in it, the tank was up for years. So my current questions are: 1) What should I do with the live rock sitting in fairly stagnant saltwater, should I wash it, dry it, an then use it? Should I put in a light bleach solution first, then rinse it? 2) Same with the sand, what should I do it it? Run a hose in the bucket with FW till it runs clean? 3) Should I use the UV system at all, and if so, I heard not during startup. Given the time that has elapsed since my first mission, I am trying to not have a nitrate breakout from hell. Thanks in advance.

04/16/2014, 09:44 PM	#3
inetmug Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 693	Thanks for the reply. I took your advice and went hunting and found several sources of information for this rock. No real sticky threads on the subject. The sand I am clear on. Thank you. Ok, so I "had" cured rock from my buds tank (when I called it dead, I meant colorless cause he had only illumination lights). I will make an assumption that dead rock is just that, rock that had no life on it either due to the fact it never had life on it, or all life has expired. According to several sources, the definition of cured rock is rock that does not smell, and have had everything that died on it cycled, and new life has begun. I can see that I should put this rock from the coolers into a large clean garbage can, fill it with fresh SW, put a pump in it to keep it moving. And do lots of water changes. Should have done that the first day. I also have seen rock come in wet, shipped, and I understand the ammonia spike. I see lots of threads that say "clean it", but clean it with what? I see several that refer to an "acid bath". Would that not kill everything on it? Effectively, if one was to bleach it, or soak in fresh water, or leave it out to dry in the sun for months, you are starting back with 100% non-cured dead rock? So my core question really is, given my situation,.... which is.... I had cured rock, I now have 10 day old cured rock, kept in non-ideal situation, so now I got smelly rock (probably somewhat live), what would be the best course of action? It seems given my circumstance I should clean it to remove any dead stuff, but does that mean using an acid bath? Them I should put it in my clean garbage cans, fill hem with fresh SW, put a pump in there, and do a change every few days, until the rocks no longer smell like kaka, until I have them "re-cured". I have no lights nor protein skimmer for this. One of my tanks is on wheels, I could put it outside in the sunlight? After the rocks no longer smell, start the big tank, just with the rock, and let it cycle for a few weeks with everything running? sound like a plan? Last edited by inetmug; 04/16/2014 at 09:57 PM.

05/05/2014, 08:09 AM	#9
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	Seems to me most FOWLR are actually FOWDR, or at least they start out that way. No reason not to add OS as long as the tank has the right support environment (e.g. skimmer, appropriate lighting, etc.); or the OS will become DOS (D = dead). I actually ran a FOWLRaLHA for while (Fish only with live rock and large hosting anemone ). Anemone was tougher on the fish then they were on the anemone. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

04/16/2014, 09:02 PM	#2
FTDelta Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Central NY Posts: 1,124	FWLRAOS???? No such term in the world of saltwater aquaria Only FOWLR or REEF. Reef is with corals. What livestock you add is irrellevent. DO NOT clean or wash LR with bleach! Otherwise you will kill everything on it. Cure your rock. Rinse sand with tap water. A UV sterilizer is not a must-have. It doesn't prevent ich in fish or in the tank. Nitrates will always be there during a cycle. A typical cycle last anywhere from 8 - 12 weeks depending on the quality of your LR. Providing you don't do something stupid like clean your LR with bleach and kill everything beneficial on it. Read the stickies in these forums before going further.

04/17/2014, 09:06 AM	#4
FTDelta Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Central NY Posts: 1,124	Clean it using a stiff brush to remove unwanted algae and whatnot. Don't do an acid bath. Another way of cleaning it is put it under straight up freshwater. Who knows, you might find some unwanted hitch hikers (ie: mantis shrimp, gorilla crabs, etc...) make a bee line out of their hidy holes.

04/17/2014, 09:29 AM	#5
G_Sanab922 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Keys Posts: 1,392	+1 rinse sand with tap. You wouldn't need a UV yet either. Yea don't do an acid bath if you want to keep them live. Where in the keys are you?? I'm in key largo.

04/17/2014, 06:46 PM	#6
inetmug Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 693	I live in Merritt Island. But I got to the keys occasionally. My buddy was an expert (and very legal) collector for our own use. He knew it all. We used to collect also in west palm and as far north as Sebastian. You can get a lot of nice fish in Vero and south, but better invertebrates and the minimal legal soft corals in the keys. Just quarantine the fish, and we never had an issue. Yeah, I am going to clean it via a stiff plastic brush, put it in fresh SW with a pump, and let them go for about 10-14 days. With a water change every day, then every few days. Ready to let this sucker begin!

05/05/2014, 08:03 AM	#8
inetmug Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 693	We would do the prazipro treatment for "gill flukes", I think that is right term. They can be there especially is you get stuff out of the sargasm weed floating. I had the coolest filefish, but it got infected and did not last. Then we would copper. Never an issue after this. If you would like to hop on the boat I will give you a jingle. I have commercial fishing licenses, so I would never take a chance on illegal collection period, got too much to lose. Not that I would over collect anyway. I am also a sportsman. My friend left me a literal library of books. Everything from tank construction to keeping. Over time I hope to get it consumed.

05/06/2014, 07:35 AM	#11
G_Sanab922 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Keys Posts: 1,392	[QUOTE=inetmug;22731190] They can be there especially is you get stuff out of the sargasm weed floating. I had the coolest filefish, but it got infected and did not last. QUOTE] Been dying to do this! Went mahi fishing yesterday and saw weed everywhere. I'm think of getting some next time I go out. What else have you got from the weed? And what area are you in, if I may ask?

05/06/2014, 01:42 PM	#14
G_Sanab922 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Keys Posts: 1,392