Lanthanum chloride concentration?

DrDNA · 11/14/2015, 10:23 PM

Anyone know the molarity of the popular phosphate binding solutions ( eg Fozdown or Ultra life liquid phosphate remover)? Just trying to see if it's more cost effective to buy lanthanum chloride and make my own solution...

bertoni · 11/14/2015, 11:33 PM

I've never seen any numbers on this. What's the price of the lanthanum chloride you're considering?

Eyore · 11/15/2015, 09:09 AM

Can it not be worked out from the amount of phosphate precipitated out?

RGS2 · 11/15/2015, 09:44 AM

While I haven't looked up the price of the other products, a quart bottle of LC at my local pool supply company was $20. I have a 300g system and this bottle would last years if not a lifetime. I'll let you do your research but it takes very little of this stuff to bring down P04 to manageable levels.

noy · 11/15/2015, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGS2

While I haven't looked up the price of the other products, a quart bottle of LC at my local pool supply company was $20. I have a 300g system and this bottle would last years if not a lifetime. I'll let you do your research but it takes very little of this stuff to bring down P04 to manageable levels.

$20 sounds about right for a quart give/take. Definitely do your research (and your own testing). This stuff will precipitate if not properly administered.

DrDNA · 11/15/2015, 11:03 AM

From what I can tell, it looks like lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) binds with phosphate ions (PO4^-3) to form the insoluble LaPO4. So it should be a 1:1 mol ratio between LaCl3 and the amt of phosphate ions removed in the ideal world.

If I have time, I'll try to work out the math, but you could convert ppm of PO4 (=mg/L) to mols/L and then you would know how much LaCl3 would be needed to remove a certain amount of PO4^-3 from solution.

It seems to be sold in the heptahydrate form, which has a FW of 371g/mol. So, to make a one molar solution, you would need to dissolve 371g in 1L diH20. But I haven't had a chance to look up its solubility in water - I somehow don't think 371g of something would fully dissolve in water...

Roy Arena · 11/15/2015, 07:01 PM

Is lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) a good alternative to gfo?

bertoni · 11/15/2015, 07:14 PM

GFO is a bit more convenient in some ways because the phosphate is bound to the media, which can then be removed from the tank. Lanthanum combines with phosphate to form a precipitate, which then should be removed from the tank via some sort of mechanical filter. Both can work, but lanthanum solutions are cheaper per unit of phosphate removed.

Roy Arena · 11/15/2015, 07:27 PM

Thank you Jonathan!

bertoni · 11/15/2015, 07:38 PM

You're welcome.

RGS2 · 11/15/2015, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Arena

Is lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) a good alternative to gfo?

Only if GFO is not working for you and you continually fight high P04. It is cheaper but very easy to overdose and harm your tank. Do a lot of research before starting and go slow. I use it to bring down P04 that is high but then use XPort/GFO to maintain lower levels.

DrDNA · 11/15/2015, 10:15 PM

I have a 300g reef and I love to feed my fish

A lot sometimes... anyway I have used LaCl to bring phosphates down under .10ppm from a high of almost 1.8ppm. It is very effective but from what I've read you need to be really careful about adding it slowly to your system, and in an area where it will go through a filter sock before returning to your tank. To me, the main use is bring down phosphates if they are high and then you can maintain low levels with GFO. I've seen mixed things on how well it works by itself over the long term... it does from a precipitate but properly administered and managed, it could save on GFO and the hassels of regenerating it.

jason2459 · 11/17/2015, 04:46 PM

Phosfree is the only product I've seen so far that gives the percentage of LaCL3 in it's safety data sheets. Their standard solution is around 11% and extra strength is ~26%. Then they also have a commercial/pro version but I would stay away from it as it also includes a couple other components like zinc.

tmz · 11/18/2015, 12:25 PM

I don't know the current numbers. I did compare it to the Brightwell product years ago. and did the math . As I recall $ 35 worth of Seaklear( a popular pool product) gave me the equivalent LC concentration as 8 $20 bottles of the Brightwell liquid phosphate remover.

Gfo is much safer. Cost can be reduced considerably by regenrating up to 10xs.IME.

DrDNA · 11/19/2015, 02:20 PM

Thanks everyone. I used to run gfo and regenerate it. I just don't have a whole lot of free time these days and don't want our toddler accidentally getting into a container of gfo with concentrated sodium hydroxide or muriatic acid (I don't recall which) in it

tmz · 11/19/2015, 03:44 PM

OK, it's both acid and lye when a two step process is used. I applaud your caution.

GROSSR · 11/24/2015, 07:12 PM

I can't control my Phosphates with GFO. I am only feeding 1x a week. 15% water change 2x a week. I am currently regenerating my GFO with Lye. My plan is to use SeaKlear at 1ml per gallon dripped into a 10 micron sock. Then hopefully the GFO will last longer than 1 week. I am sure my rock is leaching the phophates. I am working on cleaning the rock in separate 5 gallon buckets. My goal is to use GFO exclusively.

DrDNA : As far as the lye I am with you 100%. Put it in a locked room with a key. Let everyone know what is in the bucket. I have grown children and I too am very concerned about what lye will do if accidentally touched/spilled/splashed. Mine is out in the garage buried under a bunch of boxes.

thanks

rich

11/14/2015, 10:23 PM	#1
DrDNA Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 1,152	Lanthanum chloride concentration? Anyone know the molarity of the popular phosphate binding solutions ( eg Fozdown or Ultra life liquid phosphate remover)? Just trying to see if it's more cost effective to buy lanthanum chloride and make my own solution... __________________ O O o o O O o o o o o o O <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< Jeff Current Tank Info: 300g and 540g on one system, 165g sump, lifereef VS3-72 skimmer, LED lighting

11/14/2015, 11:33 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I've never seen any numbers on this. What's the price of the lanthanum chloride you're considering? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/15/2015, 09:09 AM	#3
Eyore Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Uk Posts: 307	Can it not be worked out from the amount of phosphate precipitated out? __________________ MY TANK THREAD- 1000L SPS http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2402958 sorry it needs to be cut and pasted

11/15/2015, 11:03 AM	#6
DrDNA Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 1,152	From what I can tell, it looks like lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) binds with phosphate ions (PO4^-3) to form the insoluble LaPO4. So it should be a 1:1 mol ratio between LaCl3 and the amt of phosphate ions removed in the ideal world. If I have time, I'll try to work out the math, but you could convert ppm of PO4 (=mg/L) to mols/L and then you would know how much LaCl3 would be needed to remove a certain amount of PO4^-3 from solution. It seems to be sold in the heptahydrate form, which has a FW of 371g/mol. So, to make a one molar solution, you would need to dissolve 371g in 1L diH20. But I haven't had a chance to look up its solubility in water - I somehow don't think 371g of something would fully dissolve in water... __________________ O O o o O O o o o o o o O <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< Jeff Current Tank Info: 300g and 540g on one system, 165g sump, lifereef VS3-72 skimmer, LED lighting

11/15/2015, 07:14 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	GFO is a bit more convenient in some ways because the phosphate is bound to the media, which can then be removed from the tank. Lanthanum combines with phosphate to form a precipitate, which then should be removed from the tank via some sort of mechanical filter. Both can work, but lanthanum solutions are cheaper per unit of phosphate removed. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/15/2015, 09:44 AM	#4
RGS2 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 139	While I haven't looked up the price of the other products, a quart bottle of LC at my local pool supply company was $20. I have a 300g system and this bottle would last years if not a lifetime. I'll let you do your research but it takes very little of this stuff to bring down P04 to manageable levels.

11/15/2015, 07:01 PM	#7
Roy Arena Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Chandler AZ. Posts: 202	Is lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) a good alternative to gfo?

11/15/2015, 07:27 PM	#9
Roy Arena Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Chandler AZ. Posts: 202	Thank you Jonathan!

11/15/2015, 07:38 PM	#10
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	You're welcome. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/15/2015, 10:15 PM	#12
DrDNA Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 1,152	I have a 300g reef and I love to feed my fish A lot sometimes... anyway I have used LaCl to bring phosphates down under .10ppm from a high of almost 1.8ppm. It is very effective but from what I've read you need to be really careful about adding it slowly to your system, and in an area where it will go through a filter sock before returning to your tank. To me, the main use is bring down phosphates if they are high and then you can maintain low levels with GFO. I've seen mixed things on how well it works by itself over the long term... it does from a precipitate but properly administered and managed, it could save on GFO and the hassels of regenerating it. __________________ O O o o O O o o o o o o O <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< Jeff Current Tank Info: 300g and 540g on one system, 165g sump, lifereef VS3-72 skimmer, LED lighting

11/17/2015, 04:46 PM	#13
jason2459 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 9,671	Phosfree is the only product I've seen so far that gives the percentage of LaCL3 in it's safety data sheets. Their standard solution is around 11% and extra strength is ~26%. Then they also have a commercial/pro version but I would stay away from it as it also includes a couple other components like zinc. __________________ rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. \| 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank

11/18/2015, 12:25 PM	#14
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	I don't know the current numbers. I did compare it to the Brightwell product years ago. and did the math . As I recall $ 35 worth of Seaklear( a popular pool product) gave me the equivalent LC concentration as 8 $20 bottles of the Brightwell liquid phosphate remover. Gfo is much safer. Cost can be reduced considerably by regenrating up to 10xs.IME. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

11/19/2015, 02:20 PM	#15
DrDNA Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 1,152	Thanks everyone. I used to run gfo and regenerate it. I just don't have a whole lot of free time these days and don't want our toddler accidentally getting into a container of gfo with concentrated sodium hydroxide or muriatic acid (I don't recall which) in it __________________ O O o o O O o o o o o o O <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< <º)))>< Jeff Current Tank Info: 300g and 540g on one system, 165g sump, lifereef VS3-72 skimmer, LED lighting

11/19/2015, 03:44 PM	#16
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	OK, it's both acid and lye when a two step process is used. I applaud your caution. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

11/24/2015, 07:12 PM	#17
GROSSR Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Aberdeen NJ Posts: 1,853	I can't control my Phosphates with GFO. I am only feeding 1x a week. 15% water change 2x a week. I am currently regenerating my GFO with Lye. My plan is to use SeaKlear at 1ml per gallon dripped into a 10 micron sock. Then hopefully the GFO will last longer than 1 week. I am sure my rock is leaching the phophates. I am working on cleaning the rock in separate 5 gallon buckets. My goal is to use GFO exclusively. DrDNA : As far as the lye I am with you 100%. Put it in a locked room with a key. Let everyone know what is in the bucket. I have grown children and I too am very concerned about what lye will do if accidentally touched/spilled/splashed. Mine is out in the garage buried under a bunch of boxes. thanks rich