Dinoflagellates. - Page 37

DNA · 03/14/2015, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montireef

Ostreopsis is not always toxic. I have suffered four outbreaks and only the first one killed all my snails and fishes
It is a mysterious fact that nobody can explain yet.

Organisms can build a tolerance to at least some poisons if they ramp up slowly enough.
The toxicity of our dinos may also be variable.

cal_stir · 03/14/2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amphiprion

Glad to hear that approach seems to be working, as that has been working well for me, too. The least maintenance I've done in a while and it's paying off for the most part. Still scared to do water changes, but it may be worthwhile to cease skimming for a few days after a change... I'll have to experiment with that.

I've done 2 5% WC in the past month and had no bloom, I still have some visible diatoms but can only find a few dinos under the microscope, I have a second much smaller dino along with the ostreopsis that I have not IDed.

It swims without spinning.

Montireef · 03/14/2015, 04:22 PM

Might be amphidinium

cal_stir · 03/14/2015, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montireef

Might be amphidinium

That's it
http://cfb.unh.edu/phycokey/Choices/...mage_page.html

Royce7586 · 03/15/2015, 09:40 AM

Im curious has anyone got a Triton water test during a dinobloom? Would be interesting to see if anything is different in a dino tank compared to normal tank triton tests

Montireef · 03/15/2015, 10:01 AM

Good point cal_stir.

I am afraid I am not only an ostreopsis expert, but amphidinium as well, LOL

As some of my tanks sit in the sun and are ULNS, they behave like a dino's magnet...

Amphidinium is much easier to cope with, never had toxicity events and always got rid of it with just a 4/5 days blackout.

DNA · 03/21/2015, 08:15 AM

I made a few minor changes.
New carbon brand.
Alklinity from 8-7
One new MH bulb out of three.
30 extra minutes of light.

Now I have twice as much dinos as the last few months.
SPS corals are heading south quite fast. I have some dead already.
M Capricornis have lost some color going from bright red and green to gray.

- - -

This is simply a repeat of my previous findings and now I can say for sure that there is a link between Ostreopsis dinos in a reef tank and SPS coral health.

There is a point where your SPS corals show signs of no or slow growth.
This can creep up on experienced tank owners becasue the dinos will be very hard to detect if you are uninformed.

There is another piont where your SPS corals stop growing and slow tissue necrosis will take place.
There will be brown patches here and there with clear surfaces in between.

Then there is a point where toxicity is at a level where corals can die in a few days with a fast tissue necrosis or show marks of severe discomfort.
Most of your sand will be covered in dinos and at least some of the live rock.

- - -

Did someone say dinos are difficult?

cal_stir · 03/21/2015, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNA

I made a few minor changes.
New carbon brand.
Alklinity from 8-7
One new MH bulb out of three.
30 extra minutes of light.

Now I have twice as much dinos as the last few months.
SPS corals are heading south quite fast. I have some dead already.
M Capricornis have lost some color going from bright red and green to gray.

- - -

This is simply a repeat of my previous findings and now I can say for sure that there is a link between Ostreopsis dinos in a reef tank and SPS coral health.

There is a point where your SPS corals show signs of no or slow growth.
This can creep up on experienced tank owners becasue the dinos will be very hard to detect if you are uninformed.

There is another piont where your SPS corals stop growing and slow tissue necrosis will take place.
There will be brown patches here and there with clear surfaces in between.

Then there is a point where toxicity is at a level where corals can die in a few days with a fast tissue necrosis or show marks of severe discomfort.
Most of your sand will be covered in dinos and at least some of the live rock.

- - -

Did someone say dinos are difficult?

Sorry to hear. I have changed carbon brands recently and increased white light intensity and started doing water changes again, no bloom but I still see a few of them under the microscope.

Montireef · 03/21/2015, 11:41 PM

I have found a substance that killed ostreopsis in less than 24 hours. Absolutely harmless for corals, urchins, starfishes, crabs...but killed all my fishes and some trochus snails (turbo, strombus, nassarius and tectus seem unaffected).
The skimmer pulled out 1 gal of black gunk in a few hours and water is crystal clear. Corals show a slightly pale colour and polyp extension is great.

DNA · 03/22/2015, 04:06 AM

Montireef you are really going all in with your methods.
For a healthy tank, that is what needs to be done.

Would you say your corals showed instant signs of improvement?
Long term effects remain to be seen, but in my previous post I mention the grip Ostreopsis has on corals.
Of course dinos only happen to someone else, but they could be one of the biggest cause of coral problems in reef tanks.

Montireef · 03/22/2015, 04:42 AM

Almost 48h since the first dose and no dinos visible.
As it killed all my fishes, I put a big load of GAC so I presume there is nothing left in the water.

Corals are happier than ever with awesome polyp extension. As I don't have any fish now I will dose a bit more next time I see any dinoflagellate sign. I seems it has nuked ostreopsis and amphidiniun but I still see many ciliates and copepods on the microscope. Colonista snails and small ophiura seem unaffected but some trochus snails are quiet and probably dying (half the population).

A friend of mine with a severe ostreopsis bloom is going to try on his tank at a small dose. I tried at 1 ml/100 l and he will try at 0,3 ml/100 l.

We will soon know if it works at a fish-safe dose.

DBSAM · 03/22/2015, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montireef

Almost 48h since the first dose and no dinos visible.
As it killed all my fishes, I put a big load of GAC so I presume there is nothing left in the water.

Corals are happier than ever with awesome polyp extension. As I don't have any fish now I will dose a bit more next time I see any dinoflagellate sign. I seems it has nuked ostreopsis and amphidiniun but I still see many ciliates and copepods on the microscope. Colonista snails and small ophiura seem unaffected but some trochus snails are quiet and probably dying (half the population).

A friend of mine with a severe ostreopsis bloom is going to try on his tank at a small dose. I tried at 1 ml/100 l and he will try at 0,3 ml/100 l.

We will soon know if it works at a fish-safe dose.

Monti, I missed what you are using...have you posted it?
Thanks

Montireef · 03/22/2015, 02:34 PM

A naphthoquinone extract. It's very concentrated and all natural. You can use it with UV sterilizer and skimmer on. The only thing you have to stop is the GAC media if you are using it.

ssick92 · 03/22/2015, 05:04 PM

The only thing that got rid of my dinos was adding a UV sterilizer to my setup. I had dinos for a couple months, installed a UV sterilizer, and they were gone within a week.

Royce7586 · 03/22/2015, 09:20 PM

Are you kidding me I told you guys to use Kordon Ich attack...it is naphthoquinone...

Montireef · 03/23/2015, 01:41 AM

Yes I know. But I am using a specific kind of very concentrated naphthoquinone without any other substance as you can get with the Kordon product.

cal_stir · 03/23/2015, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royce7586

Are you kidding me I told you guys to use Kordon Ich attack...it is naphthoquinone...

Were you successful with the kordon ick attack and how much did you dose?
Do you what kind of dinos you have/had?

DNA · 03/23/2015, 02:48 PM

Montireef it's possible you did not overdose and that Naphthoquinone is not what killed all your fish.
The mass death of dinos could have released deadly amounts of toxins and I find that more likely judging from what I have witnessed with dino swings in my tank.

We should add this to our experience as a possible limit in fish tolerance to sudden rise in palytoxin.

I'm not sure what to draw from the corals getting pale. Is it the symbiodinum or ostreopsis leaving the corals?

Montireef · 03/23/2015, 03:14 PM

It might be, but I did not have much ostreopsis slime so I presume they died because of the high dosage.

When I watched the fish behaving weird I placed a big amount of GAC but could not save them. This surely removed all the naphthoquinones and three days later I start watching some ostreosis slime showing up.

DNA · 03/23/2015, 03:35 PM

As with most medicine it's rarely an instant cure with one shot.
You have found something that works to some extent so a further treatment over time seems to be the logical thing to try as these often take weeks to work in humans.
I take it this stuff is anti-fungal and damages cell walls and I can imagne that would expose or release the dinoflagellates toxin.

DNA · 03/28/2015, 07:51 AM

How are your battles going?

---

My SPS corals are still heading south, but slowly after the initial plunge.
They look just as bad as my current reefing mood.
The dinos seem to have found a new and an increased population density they seem to intend to stick with.

---

For ostreopsis we have found loads of methods that don't work, but none that do any permanent good.
It's been more than three years since my battle started and frankly the dinos still rule the tank.

---

DNA · 03/28/2015, 07:56 AM

I've been thinking how scientists get their density samples.
I think they just take a very small sample, less than 1ml, out of the water column and then count the dinos using a microscope.
Then they publish their outcome as dinos/volume

I think we could do something similar to figure out our dino situation compared to everyone else.
If this was done to enaugh number of tanks we'd get an interesting picture on dinos in reef tanks.

We'd have to standardize the sample method to something like, 4 inches below the surface, 2 hours after the lights go out.

---

I'd have to say I'm getting really tired of dinos.

cal_stir · 03/29/2015, 07:27 AM

I took some samples last night. 2 hours after lights out I turned off all pumps for 10 minutes, took @ 1ml from 4 inches below water level and put 2 drops on 4 slides, couldn't find any dinos.
I squeezed a sample out of my 10uM filter sock and prepared 2 slides, found 1 cell of ostreopsis.
I took a sample of skimmate and prepared 1 slide and found 5 ostreopsis dinos.

I still have some brown patches showing up on the bottom of my tank and green and brown film on the glass and when I look at samples of that I see mostly diatoms and green algae and a few ostreopsis and a dozen amphidinium.

I have ordered some Kordon ich attack to see if I can rid the rest of the dinos.

The diatoms appeared about a month ago after I raised my po4 to .04 ppm and my no3 to 5 ppm and have remained very consistent, my po4 is currently .03 ppm and no3 is 4 ppm, I feel the diatom bloom should have subsided by now. I'm going to add some more diatom eating clean up crew as well.

DNA · 03/29/2015, 08:49 AM

Way to go cal stir and you even took it to the next level.
I would not be bothered by the odd cells since I think all tanks have them anyway.
It seems like you have your dinos under control at the moment. Lets hope you have turned things around.

From earlier when i had the massive dino blooms I used to turn off my pumps and blow the dinos off of all surfaces.
They would clump up and sink to the bottom in 5-10 minutes. I had billions of dinos in my tank at that time.
I think dinos are not naturally boyant and will sink slowly during the night in calm water, but during the day they often produce oxygen that pulls them towards the surface.

cal_stir · 03/29/2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNA

Way to go cal stir and you even took it to the next level.
I would not be bothered by the odd cells since I think all tanks have them anyway.
It seems like you have your dinos under control at the moment. Lets hope you have turned things around.

From earlier when i had the massive dino blooms I used to turn off my pumps and blow the dinos off of all surfaces.
They would clump up and sink to the bottom in 5-10 minutes. I had billions of dinos in my tank at that time.
I think dinos are not naturally boyant and will sink slowly during the night in calm water, but during the day they often produce oxygen that pulls them towards the surface.

Next sample will be 2 hrs after lights out, 4 in below water line and off the bottom before and after I turn the pumps off.

I agree that all tanks have dinos but it would be nice to know for sure.

03/22/2015, 05:04 PM	#914
ssick92 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: San Clemente, CA Posts: 911	The only thing that got rid of my dinos was adding a UV sterilizer to my setup. I had dinos for a couple months, installed a UV sterilizer, and they were gone within a week. __________________ John IM Nuvo 10g Mixed Reef Nano \| Kessil A160we \| Mp10QD \| Osmolator Nano

03/14/2015, 04:22 PM	#903
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	Might be amphidinium

03/15/2015, 09:40 AM	#905
Royce7586 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 99	Im curious has anyone got a Triton water test during a dinobloom? Would be interesting to see if anything is different in a dino tank compared to normal tank triton tests

03/15/2015, 10:01 AM	#906
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	Good point cal_stir. I am afraid I am not only an ostreopsis expert, but amphidinium as well, LOL As some of my tanks sit in the sun and are ULNS, they behave like a dino's magnet... Amphidinium is much easier to cope with, never had toxicity events and always got rid of it with just a 4/5 days blackout.

03/21/2015, 08:15 AM	#907
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	I made a few minor changes. New carbon brand. Alklinity from 8-7 One new MH bulb out of three. 30 extra minutes of light. Now I have twice as much dinos as the last few months. SPS corals are heading south quite fast. I have some dead already. M Capricornis have lost some color going from bright red and green to gray. - - - This is simply a repeat of my previous findings and now I can say for sure that there is a link between Ostreopsis dinos in a reef tank and SPS coral health. There is a point where your SPS corals show signs of no or slow growth. This can creep up on experienced tank owners becasue the dinos will be very hard to detect if you are uninformed. There is another piont where your SPS corals stop growing and slow tissue necrosis will take place. There will be brown patches here and there with clear surfaces in between. Then there is a point where toxicity is at a level where corals can die in a few days with a fast tissue necrosis or show marks of severe discomfort. Most of your sand will be covered in dinos and at least some of the live rock. - - - Did someone say dinos are difficult?

03/21/2015, 11:41 PM	#909
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	I have found a substance that killed ostreopsis in less than 24 hours. Absolutely harmless for corals, urchins, starfishes, crabs...but killed all my fishes and some trochus snails (turbo, strombus, nassarius and tectus seem unaffected). The skimmer pulled out 1 gal of black gunk in a few hours and water is crystal clear. Corals show a slightly pale colour and polyp extension is great.

03/22/2015, 04:06 AM	#910
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	Montireef you are really going all in with your methods. For a healthy tank, that is what needs to be done. Would you say your corals showed instant signs of improvement? Long term effects remain to be seen, but in my previous post I mention the grip Ostreopsis has on corals. Of course dinos only happen to someone else, but they could be one of the biggest cause of coral problems in reef tanks.

03/22/2015, 04:42 AM	#911
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	Almost 48h since the first dose and no dinos visible. As it killed all my fishes, I put a big load of GAC so I presume there is nothing left in the water. Corals are happier than ever with awesome polyp extension. As I don't have any fish now I will dose a bit more next time I see any dinoflagellate sign. I seems it has nuked ostreopsis and amphidiniun but I still see many ciliates and copepods on the microscope. Colonista snails and small ophiura seem unaffected but some trochus snails are quiet and probably dying (half the population). A friend of mine with a severe ostreopsis bloom is going to try on his tank at a small dose. I tried at 1 ml/100 l and he will try at 0,3 ml/100 l. We will soon know if it works at a fish-safe dose.

03/22/2015, 02:34 PM	#913
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	A naphthoquinone extract. It's very concentrated and all natural. You can use it with UV sterilizer and skimmer on. The only thing you have to stop is the GAC media if you are using it.

03/22/2015, 09:20 PM	#915
Royce7586 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 99	Are you kidding me I told you guys to use Kordon Ich attack...it is naphthoquinone...

03/23/2015, 01:41 AM	#916
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	Yes I know. But I am using a specific kind of very concentrated naphthoquinone without any other substance as you can get with the Kordon product.

03/23/2015, 02:48 PM	#918
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	Montireef it's possible you did not overdose and that Naphthoquinone is not what killed all your fish. The mass death of dinos could have released deadly amounts of toxins and I find that more likely judging from what I have witnessed with dino swings in my tank. We should add this to our experience as a possible limit in fish tolerance to sudden rise in palytoxin. I'm not sure what to draw from the corals getting pale. Is it the symbiodinum or ostreopsis leaving the corals?

03/23/2015, 03:14 PM	#919
Montireef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 308	It might be, but I did not have much ostreopsis slime so I presume they died because of the high dosage. When I watched the fish behaving weird I placed a big amount of GAC but could not save them. This surely removed all the naphthoquinones and three days later I start watching some ostreosis slime showing up.

03/23/2015, 03:35 PM	#920
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	As with most medicine it's rarely an instant cure with one shot. You have found something that works to some extent so a further treatment over time seems to be the logical thing to try as these often take weeks to work in humans. I take it this stuff is anti-fungal and damages cell walls and I can imagne that would expose or release the dinoflagellates toxin.

03/28/2015, 07:51 AM	#921
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	How are your battles going? --- My SPS corals are still heading south, but slowly after the initial plunge. They look just as bad as my current reefing mood. The dinos seem to have found a new and an increased population density they seem to intend to stick with. --- For ostreopsis we have found loads of methods that don't work, but none that do any permanent good. It's been more than three years since my battle started and frankly the dinos still rule the tank. ---

03/28/2015, 07:56 AM	#922
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	I've been thinking how scientists get their density samples. I think they just take a very small sample, less than 1ml, out of the water column and then count the dinos using a microscope. Then they publish their outcome as dinos/volume I think we could do something similar to figure out our dino situation compared to everyone else. If this was done to enaugh number of tanks we'd get an interesting picture on dinos in reef tanks. We'd have to standardize the sample method to something like, 4 inches below the surface, 2 hours after the lights go out. --- I'd have to say I'm getting really tired of dinos.

03/29/2015, 07:27 AM	#923
cal_stir Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: corunna,ontario,canada Posts: 269	I took some samples last night. 2 hours after lights out I turned off all pumps for 10 minutes, took @ 1ml from 4 inches below water level and put 2 drops on 4 slides, couldn't find any dinos. I squeezed a sample out of my 10uM filter sock and prepared 2 slides, found 1 cell of ostreopsis. I took a sample of skimmate and prepared 1 slide and found 5 ostreopsis dinos. I still have some brown patches showing up on the bottom of my tank and green and brown film on the glass and when I look at samples of that I see mostly diatoms and green algae and a few ostreopsis and a dozen amphidinium. I have ordered some Kordon ich attack to see if I can rid the rest of the dinos. The diatoms appeared about a month ago after I raised my po4 to .04 ppm and my no3 to 5 ppm and have remained very consistent, my po4 is currently .03 ppm and no3 is 4 ppm, I feel the diatom bloom should have subsided by now. I'm going to add some more diatom eating clean up crew as well.

03/29/2015, 08:49 AM	#924
DNA Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Iceland Posts: 1,516	Way to go cal stir and you even took it to the next level. I would not be bothered by the odd cells since I think all tanks have them anyway. It seems like you have your dinos under control at the moment. Lets hope you have turned things around. From earlier when i had the massive dino blooms I used to turn off my pumps and blow the dinos off of all surfaces. They would clump up and sink to the bottom in 5-10 minutes. I had billions of dinos in my tank at that time. I think dinos are not naturally boyant and will sink slowly during the night in calm water, but during the day they often produce oxygen that pulls them towards the surface.