Am I ready for a mandarin dragonet?

PRI · 12/25/2012, 06:30 PM

A little about my tank, it's a 58g mixed reef with a mature sandbed and liverock. The other fish are peaceful and include a blue assessor, tailspot blenny, purple firefish, a fairy wrasse and a flasher plus a mated pair of percs that never leave their RBTA or show any signs of aggression.

The tank has a healthy population of large amphipods measuring about 1/8 to 3/16ths of an inch. I would add some copepods in the display tank a few weeks before purchasing the dragonet but no guarantees they will establish.

No refugium, I have a berlin style sump with filter socks and a big Reef Octopus skimmer, CPE in a media rack and UV sterilizer sized for 30-45k uw/cm2.

Looking for some honest opinions because I know they're notoriously difficult to feed properly. My tank usually gets a combo of spirulina, mysis and Rod's Food.

BfishLpond78 · 12/25/2012, 06:37 PM

How old is the tank?

Not having a fuge would be my biggest concern. Mandarins eat thousands of pods...they are said to eat one every 10 seconds.

Its all about having a mature system and a place where pods can colonize without any disturbance from predators.

sent from never never land...

woodnaquanut · 12/25/2012, 06:37 PM

Take a look at 'Mandarin Primer', one of the threads in this subforum.

Your chances will be much better if you train it/them to eat prepared foods. You can do this while it/them are in QT. You do QT, don't you?

PRI · 12/25/2012, 07:02 PM

The 58g has been setup for about 8 months and the LR came from my other tank that had been up for a little over a year. The amphipods are everywhere, sandbed, rock, overflow box but I can see how they could be quickly depleted.

I use my old RSM 130D as a quarantine tank but it's barebottom now so no established rock or sand. I'll need to get another QT eventually because I don't want to put any medicine in the RSM, knock on wood I've been lucky so far with fish diseases but I know not using a QT is like playing Russian roulette. I got away with it the first year but I've QT'd all corals and fish since.

I missed the Mandarin Primer and will take a look for it now, thanks!

PRI · 12/25/2012, 07:52 PM

Okay, after speedreading through the Mandarin primer thread I'm going to hold off on getting one, at least for a good while. I may have too much competition for food with the wrasses and prefer to feed with the Vortech pumps in feed mode so the food doesn't settle on the floor.

My next tank will be much larger with a refugium so I may come back to it later.
Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

PRI · 12/25/2012, 08:09 PM

Okay, after speedreading through the Mandarin primer thread I'm going to hold off on getting one, at least for a good while. I may have too much competition for food with the wrasses and prefer to feed with the Vortech pumps in feed mode so the food doesn't settle on the floor.

My next tank will be much larger with a refugium so I may come back to it later.
Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

Flippers4pups · 12/26/2012, 12:56 AM

I had one, a Target, that I was able to train to take p.e. mysis shrimp by spot feeding with a air tube and syringe. It worked till one day after two years of spot feeding it, it just stopped eating and died. They really need larger systems to thrive in with lots of LR. Such beautiful fish, but really not for most with small systems. (No matter how much LR you have or throwing copepods in by the gallons everyday, just not worth it)

PRI · 12/26/2012, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flippers4pups

I had one, a Target, that I was able to train to take p.e. mysis shrimp by spot feeding with a air tube and syringe. It worked till one day after two years of spot feeding it, it just stopped eating and died. They really need larger systems to thrive in with lots of LR. Such beautiful fish, but really not for most with small systems. (No matter how much LR you have or throwing copepods in by the gallons everyday, just not worth it)

That's pretty much exactly what I'm afraid of. It's a case of could I keep one or should I keep one and I think the responsible answer is no.

If I have my way with the lady of the house I'll have a huge tank upgrade in the future though. I told her she can decorate every room in the house any way she wants if I can keep the den as my 'man cave' and she said yes.

FuzzyZipperbaum · 12/26/2012, 06:57 AM

PRI: Great to see you did your research and then came to conclusion that it may not be in your interest at this time.... We need more reefers like you...

sponger0 · 12/26/2012, 09:22 AM

I think you made the right decision.

The best minimum setup for a dragonette would be 75 gallon display, at least a 36 gallon refugium plus sump, no wrasses, and alot of live rock.

Even with pods in a system, I still wouldnt even use the prepared foods routes as even doing that is not near enough food for them and they need constant food available as they hunt all day non stop.

JMLewis · 12/26/2012, 06:21 PM

If you train them to eat prepared foods there amazing to have.

I dont think you have to hold off...However if your not prepared to take the time to train them then id say no.

I have 100% success rate of keeping mandarins this way. Heck usually at feed times there just as aggressive at getting the food out of the water column as any other fish. Its fairly simple to do using live brine you grow yourself.

MrTuskfish · 12/26/2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MimicOcto8

Possibly

If you're just upping your post count, at least try to hide it. This comment means nothing.

sponger0 · 12/27/2012, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMLewis

If you train them to eat prepared foods there amazing to have.

I dont think you have to hold off...However if your not prepared to take the time to train them then id say no.

I have 100% success rate of keeping mandarins this way. Heck usually at feed times there just as aggressive at getting the food out of the water column as any other fish. Its fairly simple to do using live brine you grow yourself.

This approach to keeping dragonettes is at minimum best. It is not nearly enough food.

gnu · 12/27/2012, 09:04 AM

If you're going to do it, ORA now sells CB mandarins. The CB mandarins are already trained onto frozen, and they're definitely the more responsible way to go.

sponger0 · 12/27/2012, 09:09 AM

The ORA are not much different than the others. Reason why is they may be eating in store, but once you get them home, they may decide not to eat prepared food due to the stress of the changing environment. This happened to me. Had one eating prepared foods in a somewhat regular basis but moved him to a bigger tank and he decided to just stop eating anything.

So just cause it has ORA on it, doesnt mean its going to eat prepared foods. Dragonettes are not that cut and dry. If they were, this topic wouldnt be a discussion.

Overgrown · 12/27/2012, 10:54 AM

Think you were wise to hold off. They can be trained to take frozen to supplement but they never thrive this way in my experience. The healthiest specimens I've seen are always strictly eating pods all day as their sole source.

Ngoodermuth · 12/27/2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

This approach to keeping dragonettes is at minimum best. It is not nearly enough food.

I'm curious about this comment. I have had my spotted mandarin for only a little over two weeks now.

I am feeding 2-3 times a day with a mix of meaty items including mysis, brine, and a prepared reef mix with krill, clam, fish, fish roe, mussels and zooplankton (in that order). He has been eating it all and has visibly gained fat reserves in the short amount of time I've had him.

I'm assuming with his rapid weight gain that he is getting enough to eat?

sponger0 · 12/27/2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ngoodermuth

I'm curious about this comment. I have had my spotted mandarin for only a little over two weeks now.

I am feeding 2-3 times a day with a mix of meaty items including mysis, brine, and a prepared reef mix with krill, clam, fish, fish roe, mussels and zooplankton (in that order). He has been eating it all and has visibly gained fat reserves in the short amount of time I've had him.

I'm assuming with his rapid weight gain that he is getting enough to eat?

Thats only a few weeks. Can you keep this up for his full life span?

Ngoodermuth · 12/27/2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

Thats only a few weeks. Can you keep this up for his full life span?

That is the plan lol. It's really not too much to keep up, he eats from a glass vase and I have a sea squirt so we just mix up a batch of food in the AM and squirt it in a couple times a day. My hands don't get wet

We do have a sump w/ refugium also... but honestly he almost seems to prefer the prepared foods. Copepods hangout on the glass inside his vase and he doesn't seem to notice them.

xtlosx · 12/27/2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

I think you made the right decision.

The best minimum setup for a dragonette would be 75 gallon display, at least a 36 gallon refugium plus sump, no wrasses, and alot of live rock.

Even with pods in a system, I still wouldnt even use the prepared foods routes as even doing that is not near enough food for them and they need constant food available as they hunt all day non stop.

I have had a target mandarin for almost two years now in a 60G with a 10G fuge with much success. He eats mysis once in a while but loves his pods. We also have a orange back fairy wrasse for almost two years as well....

Not saying it always works out but it's possible. You probably made the right decision.

JMLewis · 12/27/2012, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

This approach to keeping dragonettes is at minimum best. It is not nearly enough food.

I'm also curios about this comment...

Incase you missed it I'm suggesting that he train them to eat prepared frozen foods and not rely solely on pods. I've had a mated pair of mandarins for over 3 years and there both fat and healthy. There fed 1-2 times a day with Selcon soaked mysis and pick at pods all day.

3 years...both fat and happy...sounds pretty sustainable to me.

What I believe people SHOULDN'T do is buy a dragonet of any type and just throw it in the display and hope he can find enough to eat.

Ngoodermuth · 12/28/2012, 06:43 AM

I think that it is very wise to research and weigh livestock decisions carefully, especially with a notoriously hard to keep species.

However, I don't think that you should let fear of failure keep you from trying. In my case, I happened to find a mandarin that was eating mysis in the LFS. Based on his apparent health and appetite, and the fact that I do believe my system is capable of supporting a decent pod population anyway... I gave it a shot.

If no one took risks of any kind in reefkeeping... we would never learn new methods of sucees.

I agree that one should not buy a dragonet and just hope it can find pods, even in a 75 or larger.

rssjsb · 12/28/2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMLewis

I'm also curios about this comment...

Incase you missed it I'm suggesting that he train them to eat prepared frozen foods and not rely solely on pods. I've had a mated pair of mandarins for over 3 years and there both fat and healthy. There fed 1-2 times a day with Selcon soaked mysis and pick at pods all day.

3 years...both fat and happy...sounds pretty sustainable to me.

What I believe people SHOULDN'T do is buy a dragonet of any type and just throw it in the display and hope he can find enough to eat.

You can never count on sufficient supplementation with prepared foods to make up for insufficient pod population (I'm not sure mandarins even eat amphipods, but a lot of them in a tank may suggest a healthy population of smaller ones they eat).

As to the suggestion someone else posted, that we would be nowhere without experimentation, let's not get carried away. This isn't an area where not enough is known about these fish and their needs. People who try this in a too-small tank aren't blazing trails on some scientific frontier. They're just taking a chance that they'll get the one pretty fish in a few thousand that will survive under suboptimal conditions.

The OP made the right decision. Without a fuge, a 58 is probably never going to sustain sufficient population to sustain a mandarin. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. Watching a fish starve in your care is a major bummer. So "fear of failure" is a valid and humane basis for passing on this fish.

12/25/2012, 06:30 PM	#1
PRI Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: So. Cal Posts: 12	Am I ready for a mandarin dragonet? A little about my tank, it's a 58g mixed reef with a mature sandbed and liverock. The other fish are peaceful and include a blue assessor, tailspot blenny, purple firefish, a fairy wrasse and a flasher plus a mated pair of percs that never leave their RBTA or show any signs of aggression. The tank has a healthy population of large amphipods measuring about 1/8 to 3/16ths of an inch. I would add some copepods in the display tank a few weeks before purchasing the dragonet but no guarantees they will establish. No refugium, I have a berlin style sump with filter socks and a big Reef Octopus skimmer, CPE in a media rack and UV sterilizer sized for 30-45k uw/cm2. Looking for some honest opinions because I know they're notoriously difficult to feed properly. My tank usually gets a combo of spirulina, mysis and Rod's Food.

12/25/2012, 06:37 PM	#2
BfishLpond78 FUPA Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Seymour CT Posts: 5,796	How old is the tank? Not having a fuge would be my biggest concern. Mandarins eat thousands of pods...they are said to eat one every 10 seconds. Its all about having a mature system and a place where pods can colonize without any disturbance from predators. sent from never never land... __________________ FUPA!!! Current Tank Info: 150G Starfire, BK DC 200, Vertex V6, PS Kore 5th, Ecotech Waves, Controlled by Apex, Topped off by Tunze

12/26/2012, 12:56 AM	#7
Flippers4pups Home made abyss Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lake Saint Louis, MO Posts: 2,047	I had one, a Target, that I was able to train to take p.e. mysis shrimp by spot feeding with a air tube and syringe. It worked till one day after two years of spot feeding it, it just stopped eating and died. They really need larger systems to thrive in with lots of LR. Such beautiful fish, but really not for most with small systems. (No matter how much LR you have or throwing copepods in by the gallons everyday, just not worth it) __________________ Don Reefing since 1993 Current Tank info: 125 gallon DT , 125 gallon basement sump. Rw 15 & Rw 8. Panworld 150ps return. Reef Octopus 150 skimmer, 3 165w mars aqua led.

12/28/2012, 06:43 AM	#22
Ngoodermuth Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: York, PA Posts: 162	I think that it is very wise to research and weigh livestock decisions carefully, especially with a notoriously hard to keep species. However, I don't think that you should let fear of failure keep you from trying. In my case, I happened to find a mandarin that was eating mysis in the LFS. Based on his apparent health and appetite, and the fact that I do believe my system is capable of supporting a decent pod population anyway... I gave it a shot. If no one took risks of any kind in reefkeeping... we would never learn new methods of sucees. I agree that one should not buy a dragonet and just hope it can find pods, even in a 75 or larger. Last edited by Ngoodermuth; 12/28/2012 at 06:54 AM.

12/25/2012, 06:37 PM	#3
woodnaquanut Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,727	Take a look at 'Mandarin Primer', one of the threads in this subforum. Your chances will be much better if you train it/them to eat prepared foods. You can do this while it/them are in QT. You do QT, don't you?

12/25/2012, 07:02 PM	#4
PRI Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: So. Cal Posts: 12	The 58g has been setup for about 8 months and the LR came from my other tank that had been up for a little over a year. The amphipods are everywhere, sandbed, rock, overflow box but I can see how they could be quickly depleted. I use my old RSM 130D as a quarantine tank but it's barebottom now so no established rock or sand. I'll need to get another QT eventually because I don't want to put any medicine in the RSM, knock on wood I've been lucky so far with fish diseases but I know not using a QT is like playing Russian roulette. I got away with it the first year but I've QT'd all corals and fish since. I missed the Mandarin Primer and will take a look for it now, thanks!

12/25/2012, 07:52 PM	#5
PRI Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: So. Cal Posts: 12	Okay, after speedreading through the Mandarin primer thread I'm going to hold off on getting one, at least for a good while. I may have too much competition for food with the wrasses and prefer to feed with the Vortech pumps in feed mode so the food doesn't settle on the floor. My next tank will be much larger with a refugium so I may come back to it later. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

12/25/2012, 08:09 PM	#6
PRI Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: So. Cal Posts: 12	Okay, after speedreading through the Mandarin primer thread I'm going to hold off on getting one, at least for a good while. I may have too much competition for food with the wrasses and prefer to feed with the Vortech pumps in feed mode so the food doesn't settle on the floor. My next tank will be much larger with a refugium so I may come back to it later. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

12/26/2012, 06:57 AM	#9
FuzzyZipperbaum Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Wayne Manor, Tampa Florida Posts: 474	PRI: Great to see you did your research and then came to conclusion that it may not be in your interest at this time.... We need more reefers like you...

12/26/2012, 09:22 AM	#10
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	I think you made the right decision. The best minimum setup for a dragonette would be 75 gallon display, at least a 36 gallon refugium plus sump, no wrasses, and alot of live rock. Even with pods in a system, I still wouldnt even use the prepared foods routes as even doing that is not near enough food for them and they need constant food available as they hunt all day non stop.

12/26/2012, 06:21 PM	#11
JMLewis Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Temecula, Ca Posts: 443	If you train them to eat prepared foods there amazing to have. I dont think you have to hold off...However if your not prepared to take the time to train them then id say no. I have 100% success rate of keeping mandarins this way. Heck usually at feed times there just as aggressive at getting the food out of the water column as any other fish. Its fairly simple to do using live brine you grow yourself.

12/27/2012, 09:04 AM	#14
gnu Moved On Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: ohio Posts: 183	If you're going to do it, ORA now sells CB mandarins. The CB mandarins are already trained onto frozen, and they're definitely the more responsible way to go.

12/27/2012, 09:09 AM	#15
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	The ORA are not much different than the others. Reason why is they may be eating in store, but once you get them home, they may decide not to eat prepared food due to the stress of the changing environment. This happened to me. Had one eating prepared foods in a somewhat regular basis but moved him to a bigger tank and he decided to just stop eating anything. So just cause it has ORA on it, doesnt mean its going to eat prepared foods. Dragonettes are not that cut and dry. If they were, this topic wouldnt be a discussion.

12/27/2012, 10:54 AM	#16
Overgrown Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 250	Think you were wise to hold off. They can be trained to take frozen to supplement but they never thrive this way in my experience. The healthiest specimens I've seen are always strictly eating pods all day as their sole source.