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Old 02/20/2009, 08:26 PM   #1
Chris Witort
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Blue ringed octopus

A local store got a blue ringed octopus in a shipment that they had asked for an octopus (not specifically a blue ringed) he was planning to sell it. I told the store owner that I didn't think I could take the risk of selling it if it were my store. I was wondering what other people thought about it.


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Old 02/20/2009, 08:28 PM   #2
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Law suit


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Old 02/20/2009, 11:54 PM   #3
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He is breaking the law just by having it in his possession without a permt.


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Old 02/21/2009, 01:33 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by cpony69
He is breaking the law just by having it in his possession without a permt.
I'd be interested in seeing the documentation of this law.


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Old 02/23/2009, 08:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by RockStarFish
Law suit
Verbal disclaimer ?

I think a jug of drain cleaner could be more dangerous in the wrong hands.


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Old 02/23/2009, 01:43 PM   #6
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They require a permit to export and if the supplier did not have a permit the store is also in violation of the CITIES laws. Now no one is gonna come busting in to arrest anyone but I would be willing to bet the supplier did not have a license for that species or they would not have tried to pas it off as a common octopus.

In addition if it does poison someone your looking at a large lawsuit from an employee or potential consumer. These are better left in the sea.

We got one my mistake once when I worked at a LFS and they got rid of it quickly. They sent it to the local aquarium and would not risk selling it an putting their business in jeopardy .


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Old 02/23/2009, 11:18 PM   #7
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I want it!

Yeah, it is "illegal", but I'd buy the octopus if I had the option to.


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Old 02/23/2009, 11:25 PM   #8
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Originally posted by avel
I want it!

Yeah, it is "illegal", but I'd buy the octopus if I had the option to.
Me too. o.0


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Old 02/24/2009, 12:17 AM   #9
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Wow I hope you guys don't have kids. I mean I really really hope you don't.

I did see a LFS once with a stone fish in a tank with out a lid once, when I pointed out risk of death with 15min not to mention the lawsuit waiting to happen they just shrugged. I guess they didn't even know how deadly a fish it is.

Its not often but sometime laws do make sense.


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Old 02/24/2009, 01:21 AM   #10
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Well here is an update. He sold the blue ring to a customer for 20.00 and had them sign a death waver. I hope it doesn't come back to bite him, so to speak.


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Old 02/24/2009, 01:38 AM   #11
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wow, hope he had that waiver written by a lawyer...not a home job so to speak. I have seen people handle blue rings without issue but if they decide to bite the victim can plan on cashing out early


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Old 02/24/2009, 02:18 AM   #12
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Interesting, what people will do for a dollar no?

I cant see that holding up in a court but anyway. I bet the new owner has no idea how deadly it is.

Pass him this, they might the information one day.



General Information:

With a beak that can penetrate a wet-suit, they are one little cute creature to definitely look at BUT Don't touch.

The bite might be painless, but this octopus injects a neuromuscular paralysing venom. The venom contains some maculotoxin, a poison more violent than any found on land animals. The nerve conduction is blocked and neuromuscular paralysis is followed by death. The victim might be saved if artificial respiration starts before marked cyanosis and hypotension develops. The blue-ringed octopus is the size of a golf ball but its poison is powerful enough to kill an adult human in minutes. There's no known antidote. The only treatment is hours of heart massage and artificial respiration until the poison has worked its way out of your system.

The venom contains tetrodotoxin, which blocks sodium channels and causes motor paralysis and occasionally respiratory failure. Though with fixed dilated pupils, the senses of the patients are often intact. The victims are aware but unable to respond.

Although the painless bite can kill an adult, injuries have only occurred when an octopus has been picked out of its pool and provoked or stepped on.

SYMPTOMS

*

Onset of nausea.
*

Hazy Vision. ( Within seconds you are blind.)
*

Loss of sense of touch, speech and the ability to swallow.
*

Within 3 minutes, paralysis sets in and your body goes into respiratory arrest.

The poison is not injected but is contained in the octopus's saliva, which comes from two glands each as big as its brain. Poison from the one is used on its main prey, crabs, and is relatively harmless to humans. Poison from the other gland serves as defense against predators. The blue-ringed octopus either secretes the poison in the vicinity of its prey, waits until it is immobile and then devours it, or it jumps out and envelops the prey in its 8 tentacles and bites it.


First Aid

First aid for blue-ringed octopus bites

Pressure-immobilization is a recommended first aid. Prolonged artificial respiration may also be required. May require supportive treatment including mechanical ventilation until the effects of the toxin disappear. There is no antivenin available in Australia.
Mouth to mouth resuscitation can keep the victim alive and the poison gradually wears off after 24 hrs, apparently leaving no side effects.


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Old 02/25/2009, 08:38 PM   #13
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This is one of those creatures that it seems like a mistake may be your last mistake! i originally told the store owner that it was "cute" but I think it would be best to send it down the toilet!


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Old 02/26/2009, 02:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Animal Mother
I'd be interested in seeing the documentation of this law.
Me too. And a link to where these are listed on CITIES.


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Old 02/26/2009, 10:13 PM   #15
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Being a fish-dork and a lawyer I feel privileged to speak on this issue. CITES as far as I know bans the import of endangered species. There are freshwater molluscs on this list and in Australia all of our beloved giant clams but not a single Cephalopod. Go on the CITES website and check.

There might be some other law banning their import but I don't know. There are alot of dangerous animals that work their way into fish tanks: lionfish for example. Stonefish and rabbitfish too. Stonefish are pretty dangerous.

Luckily it isn't a pet monkey!


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Old 03/01/2009, 12:14 AM   #16
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I agree with acurro I have seen stone fish, but they are nowhere as deadly as the blue ring. I have also seen a textile cone snail a few years back and I believe that the cone snail venom from those that hunt fish is as deadly as the blue ring. The textile hunts fish.

That said I would buy a tank for the blue ring and buy that thing for $20. Just so I can say you see that thing...yeah more deadly then any snake and there is no anti-venom. They have a short life span though, less then a year.


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Old 03/19/2009, 09:59 AM   #17
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TTX in blue-rings

I think we need a visit from "Myth Busters" here. Those of you who know me understand that I have worked for over 10 years trying to keep people from buying and displaying blue-rings in their home aquaria. There is danger, particularly to a child, should a bite occur. On the other hand, the fear of these animals is getting way over blown. In all probability if you were to be bitten (which is very unlikely), you would not be dead in three minutes. In fact, you might not die at all. Our lab has shown that the amount of TTX contained in blue-rings is highly variable from individual to individual and probably from species to species. Some individuals have barely detectable amounts of TTX. Others certainly have enough to kill you. The problem is there is know way to tell without assaying for the toxin. If bitten, unless you were alone or did not know that you were envenomated, you would survive with prompt medical care as a few Australians do each year. In the medical literature, there are only four confirmed deaths known to be caused by blue-ring bites. (That does not include the deaths from the "seafood stew" in Vietnam a couple of years ago.)

Should blue-rings be kept in the home aquarium? No, in my opinion the risk of an accidental envenomation to an unsuspecting person, particularly a child, is too great.

Should they be sold in aquarium stores? No, there is too great a chance that someone will get an animal that they do not know is dangerous.

Are blue-rings endangered? Probably not, at least not the named species including H. lunulata, H. fasciatus and H. maculaosa. Some of the undescribed species seem to be rarer and perhaps deserve protection. However, if we don't know what is out there, it is difficult to know how to deal with it.

Will you die if you put your hand in a tank with a blue-ring? Probably not. There is probably a greater chance of being electrocuted by an electrical short. But why take the risk. We all have ground fault interrupters on our aquaria, don't we?

Roy



Last edited by Gonodactylus; 03/19/2009 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 03/19/2009, 01:09 PM   #18
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I thank you so much Roy.

I get tired of debating this.


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Old 04/01/2009, 11:04 PM   #19
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http://www.aquariumofpacific.org/onl...nged_octopus1/

Conservation
Blue-ringed octopuses are not listed on the IUCN Red List nor are they protected.

i also agree the should not be kept in the home aquarium


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Old 04/11/2009, 09:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Animal Mother
I'd be interested in seeing the documentation of this law.
to harbor or sell any poisenous animal without proper documintation is illeagel fedral law. The reason being anti venom, and if said person who buys it decides to poisen people they can track the poisen back to the owner


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Old 04/12/2009, 12:28 AM   #21
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hello everyone just got done reading all the posts and must agree that an animal with the capability of being able to produce one of the most deadly toxins known to man really should not be kept in home aquaria. and not just for the reef keepers safty but the safty of any one that lives in the home to easy for it to escape and accidently steped on. wouldnt that be a nice surprise in the morning. anyway here is something you might find interesting about 6 months ago i was debating on setting up an octopus tank and was doing reserch online and with two lfs that i go to and both of them told me that if i wanted they could get me a blue ringed octopus for less than 30 dollars can you belive that. so my guess is that they must not be that hard to get in. dont know about you but dont think i would take the chance with the life of my family for that. and besides they only show off those really cool blue rings when they are ****ed off. so go ahead and poke a stick in your tank to see the cool colors


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Old 04/12/2009, 07:47 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by shovel
to harbor or sell any poisenous animal without proper documintation is illeagel fedral law. The reason being anti venom, and if said person who buys it decides to poisen people they can track the poisen back to the owner
Link please.


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Old 04/12/2009, 06:02 PM   #23
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I know of no law, federal or state, that prohibits purchasing or possessing Hapalochlaena that were properly exported from the country of origin. Probably the closest thing to regulating blue-rings is the Patriot Act which controls the possession of TTX. After the law was inacted, I contacted various officials to see if I had to also register my live blue-rings. After a year's discussion, it was decided that I did not as long as the TTX was in live animals, but if I extracted it from animals, I did.

Roy


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Old 04/12/2009, 07:44 PM   #24
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it is leagel to own and posses them as long as thy are properly documented. if you purchase one from reputible source they are, and your info should be taken down. I learned this from my local reptile distributor and i am going by his word alone I trust his opion and what he states as law. There is no way that i am going to try to travk down the case law to prove it to much reading not worth the time. as long as everything is legit as far as importation and registaring there should be no problem Gonodactylus you reasearched it well and there should bo no issue on your animals. however if you are to sell it or trade it whatever then there is a problem, like handguns as long as they are registerd there leagel but if sold proper paper work should be filled out. Like i said before I'am takeing the words of my local reptile store I do consider his words to be true and am useing his words alone for my source. Last and most important I must see pics of those blue rings in your tank must be stunning to have such a buetiful animal!


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Old 04/12/2009, 08:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by shovel
[B]it is leagel to own and posses them as long as thy are properly documented. if you purchase one from reputible source they are, and your info should be taken down.
Untrue. There is no paperwork at all needed to sell of buy these animals in the US.

Quote:
I learned this from my local reptile distributor and i am going by his word alone I trust his opion and what he states as law.
Perhaps he was talking about reptiles, something I don't know much about, but do know that it is more regulated than MO.

Quote:
There is no way that i am going to try to travk down the case law to prove it to much reading not worth the time.
Because its not true. Unfortunately, it is impossible for me to track down a lack of such law, so if you are going to say there is a law I am afraid you are going to have to track it down to be believed.

Quote:
as long as everything is legit as far as importation and registaring there should be no problem
There is no registering. The paper trail ends at importation. This is probably different for reptiles.

Quote:
Gonodactylus you reasearched it well and there should bo no issue on your animals. however if you are to sell it or trade it whatever then there is a problem, like handguns as long as they are registerd there leagel but if sold proper paper work should be filled out.
If anyone would know the reality it would be Roy, considering part of what he does for a living is research blue rings. There may be issues with Roy selling or trading the animals, but that would have to do with institutional rules or laws pertaining to his institution. If he were a hobbyist, he could sell or trade blue rings as much as he wanted - without paperwork.

Quote:
Like i said before I'am takeing the words of my local reptile store I do consider his words to be true and am useing his words alone for my source.
He's wrong about this.

All of which has little to do with keeping blue rings. In that regard, I am pretty much in line with Roy.


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