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Unread 08/26/2008, 05:43 PM   #226
LynnBrown
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We recently purchased a 280G set up and have been told by members of our club that many pieces are inadequate for the size of our tank. I guess it is good to find this all out before introducing residents. Anyway, the lighting question:

Tank is 71”x30.5”x32” (outside dimensions) – Approx 280G
Lighting that came with set up is 3 Hamilton Tech compact florescent square 55W 7100K blue and MH 250W 10000K

I’ve seen a lot of talk about T5 being all we need. Since we haven’t set up anything yet, we are open to the best suggestion. Alternatively, can we change bulbs in what we have or add more to what we have? If the best solution is more than $1000, what is the next best solution?

Oh yes, and nothing we have can be returned. Our fault.


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Unread 08/26/2008, 06:15 PM   #227
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Im thinking 3x HPS430/HQI400 ballasts, 3x lumenarc 3 reflectors, and 3x 400 watt aquaconnect 14,000K bulbs... that would be the cheapest way to light that tank well.

Thats about $400 in ballasts, $400-450 in reflectors, and $330 in bulbs. You can save some money by hunting around for some cheaper ballasts (HPS 430's are the same as 400 HQI in the US), or you might be able to get a package deal. I know PGS might be able to cut you a deal on a package like that because they make their own HPS430 ballasts to go with the lumenarcs. http://www.lumenarclighting.com/proddetail.asp?prod=L3

That should hit about $1000. Sorry to tell you, but I dont think there is much you can do with the hamilton unit to make it much better. You could save the ballasts perhaps and use them instead of the 400's... just buy lumenarcs for the bulbs, and leave off the PC's. Then get a 3-6 bulb 80 watt retrofit T5 kit to suppliment the bulbs with all blue plus / actinic plus style bulbs:
http://www.reefgeek.com/lighting/T5_...unlight_Supply
This assumes of course that you are using 10,000K ish bulbs for the halides. The combo of the daylight halides and the multiple strips of T5s should look very nice, and since you will be using much better reflectors for the halide, and using T5HO over Power Compact bulbs, the system will be much brighter.

I would say those two are your best bets. If you can, put 6x80 watt T5s over that tank with the lumenarcs... that will really let you suppliment the lighting very well. Lumenarcs go for $150 each (but well worth the money), and the T5 kits will be about $320 per every 3 bulbs, so thats your other $1000 option that allows you to keep the halide ballasts at least, and sell the rest.


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Unread 09/04/2008, 09:23 AM   #228
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Hello ever one i am new to this and i got a 29gl tank and i have 18wat light is that good 4 my tank?


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Unread 09/04/2008, 10:18 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by jm198706
Hello ever one i am new to this and i got a 29gl tank and i have 18wat light is that good 4 my tank?
good for your tank, yes....good to keep anything alive in your tank, NO.

You should start a new thread to discuss your lighting...this thread is to discuss Sanjay's lighting website...
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting
http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/select2lamp.php


Sanjay: You should have udated that you changed the location of your site to the manhattenreefs site


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Unread 09/09/2008, 09:27 PM   #230
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Well, I was going to... but things got hectic right before MACNA.

Thanks for doing it for me :-)

Its got an autodirect from my old page, so if you still go to the old site it will take you to the new home of the site.

sanjay.


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Unread 09/13/2008, 04:13 PM   #231
pwelsh3
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Anywhere to buy Single Ended Phoenix 14k 250w?

Ive looked everywhere but I cant seem to find a place to buy the mogul style phoenix bulbs.


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Unread 09/15/2008, 11:13 AM   #232
Ne0eN
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Quote:
Originally posted by SHOmuchFUN
I just bought a used Aquamedic Ocean Light. Comes with the AB 10k bulbs, they are a bit on the yellow side with some weak actinic.

I was looking and saw the 14k DE bulbs on E-bay.
Has anybody done any tests on those E-bay FC2 bulbs for like $20/piece? Or does anybody have any experience with them?
Hey, let me know if you try those bulbs on the Ocean Light. I got the same issue, and curious to find out what you discover.

--Rob


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Unread 09/15/2008, 12:00 PM   #233
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Re: Anywhere to buy Single Ended Phoenix 14k 250w?

Quote:
Originally posted by pwelsh3
Ive looked everywhere but I cant seem to find a place to buy the mogul style phoenix bulbs.
You might have to get their 10,000K direct from Japan...lol. Their 14,000K is the only one that is so common in the US, and I dont think that even gets made in mogul. Spectrum-wise, its very similar to the Radium 250 watt and the Aquaconnect 250 watt.


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Unread 09/25/2008, 06:49 AM   #234
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For a 48" X 30" tank what do you think would work out better, greater light penetration?
The Lumenarc III with a wider spread and higher PPFD
Giesemann 400W Coral with PFO 400W HQI PPFD 209 with 1 Lumenarc III
Or
The more focused Lumenbright with lower PPFD
Giesemann 250W Coral with PFO 250W HQI PPFD 126 with or 2 Lumenbright

Thanks
Ken


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Unread 10/04/2008, 08:27 AM   #235
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let me tag along and read the first thread............8-)


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Unread 10/09/2008, 03:12 PM   #236
eshark
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I buy all my aquarium bulbs from Hamilton. Great price and always nice bulbs. They sell MH, PC, VHO, T5 bulbs. Very helpful company.

http://www.hamiltontechnology.com/


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Unread 10/09/2008, 05:31 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetrickpony
For a 48" X 30" tank what do you think would work out better, greater light penetration?
The Lumenarc III with a wider spread and higher PPFD
Giesemann 400W Coral with PFO 400W HQI PPFD 209 with 1 Lumenarc III
Or
The more focused Lumenbright with lower PPFD
Giesemann 250W Coral with PFO 250W HQI PPFD 126 with or 2 Lumenbright

Thanks
Ken
Something to consider:

Ive reminded Sanjay every time I see him that something is wrong with the Giesemann 14,500K/Coral bulb (the 13,000K is the 'Marine' bulb) in the charts. The bottom chart is if you compare 'unsheilded' to 'sheilded'... notice how the 'sheilded' is higher than w/o? If anything, these should be reversed. I think he mentioned that he was going to redo these bulbs all together.

Here is another tidbit... the Giesemann 14,500K 'Coral' is really a Ushio Aqualite 14,000K, which is the same as the BLV nepturion 14,000K. There may be some 'bin picking' or something, but lets just say Giesemann doesnt make their own bulbs.

Now, if you look at the BLV nepturion 250wattDE 14,000K (which within Ushio they will openly admit they are the same bulb, Ushio is the brand for the US, and BLV has Europe... thats all), it comes in at 85... same as a pheonix. The weird thing is, when I take readings on the Ushio 14,000K vs. the Pheonix 14,000K, the Ushio is a good percentage brighter... perhaps 20% more than the the original... I would say enough to make the Ushio/BLV more like 100 than 85. Once again... bulbs vary from batch to batch which could easily explain some of this... you never know if you got a 'dud' unless you test it. I have a friend who is running 6 Ushio 14,000Ks at any given time, and for some reason, one of these bulbs has come in a good 25% lower in output from day one through one year... you couldn't tell unless you use a meter, but its there... just a 'bad batch' most likely... just like auto motors... you think your car has the '200hp' as advertised? Truth is, it could be 180, or even 220hp. Stock Dodge Vipers that were supposed to get 450hp used to vary from 420hp to almost 600hp right off the line! This is just variation on the assembly line.

If you look at the 400's... the Giesemann 14,500K/Coral and BLV 14,000K are easily the same bulb.

So something to consider... FOR SURE, the Giesemann 14,500K Coral does not have a PPFD of 126 w/ sheild. I could see 101 though because thats similar to what I see with the Ushio. Also, the 'Coral' is not a 13,000K, but Sanjay has mentioned that is how they were sent to him from Giesemann... so whatcha-gonna do?

Now, according to Ushio, the PAR/watt ratio of the 250wattDE 10,000K is 56, and the ratio for the 14,000K is 56... which makes them the same... and if you compare Sanjay's results... you will see that besides some minor spectrum changes (which in person do make a huge difference), the bulbs are similar in PPFD. Now, Ushio puts the 10,000K 400 watter's PAR/watt ratio at 95! The weird thing is that Ushio's 10,000K at 400 watts has a lower output than the BLV 14,000K (which has a nearly identical output to the G-man Coral 400)... so deriving a 'PAR/watt' ratio for the 14,000K 400watter is ??? (Ushio doesn't have it listed in their info, just the 10,000K at 400 watts... go figure)... but from all the other bulbs, it is safe to say that as you go from 250 watts to 400 watts, there is a significant increase in efficiency.

On the other hand, having only one light source for a tank tends to make all of its corals grow with a phototripic effect... the tips are all aimed at the light, many more shadows are cast so pigmentation on many SPS corals is faded over more of the surface. A lumenarc might make the light source 'not as much of a point source', but it still is to a large extent. All you have to do is look at the grid testing Sanjay has done to see that the light still loses intensity as you move away from the bulb in height as well as side to side. Consider this... a reflector, even a 'great one' like a lumenarc which attempts to spread out the point source of a bulb (to minimize the effects of the inverse square law), is really only dealing with the light that is coming out of the back 180-240 degrees. Most of the light that is coming from the front half of the bulb never touches the reflector, and so is still a 'point source'. The light that does come from the reflector still loses about 5% of its intensity right off the bat due to the material, and no reflector is perfect (unless its an LED) so you lose some more light that hits the reflector more than once, or hits the reflector right above the bulb and is aimed right back at it (why the backside of a lumenarc style reflector is just flat, Ill never know... a small dimple/cone there makes more sense... or at least a 'V' groove restrike like a spider light reflector). The light that comes from a reflector also has to travel FROM the bulb to the reflector, being subject to the inverse square law on the way, and then be redirected downwards as best as possible... the larger the reflector, the greater the dispersion... the greater the intensity is maintained with distance from the reflector... but a larger reflector means the light has to travel more on the way to the reflector in the first place...

Bottom line: even with a very nice reflector like a lumenarc 3 full size... you still have phototropism. So if you have two reflectors running 1/2 the output, you are still ahead of running one reflector with all of the output. You will prevent phototropism, you will maintain intensity with depth better, etc. But when you switch from 250's to 400's... you are talking about increased efficiency as well (HQI 400's is something around 540 watts with the bulbs were talking about!, and a HQI 250 is going to be about 330 watts... or 660 watts combined). So there is no clear response on this... the cost of bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors is more with the dual 250's, and the efficiency isnt as great, but it might be better for you in the long run still because of the 'spread' of light that it gives you.

I have dealt with people who light larger tanks with one large bulb... like 48x48x24 tanks with a single 1000 watt bulb (1000's have great efficiency, but then again, you are talking about mounting the light a good 24" or more above the tank, and how much light are you spilling into the room then?), and the owners didn't like it. The corals had their pigmented tips all facing the center of the tank (away from the viewer), lots of shadows (LPS,softies, brains, etc. like it, but not SPS so much).

I have lit 40B's with single 250 watt halides, and I didnt like it much in the end either because of this phototropic effect. On my own 48x30x21"h reef, I started with a single 250wattDE (Ushio 14,000K) on a light rail (rather than two halides that size) moving back and forth about 24" in the center, with 4x54watt T5s for supplimental blue and actinic. In the end, more due to pigmentation reasons (not even this matched the intense colors I get with 100% T5s... the growth otherwise from the light mover, which prevents phototropism the best of anything, was awesome), I went 100% T5.... 10x54wattT5s (tank is eurobraced so I only have a 24" opening good for about 10 T5 bulbs). You might consider the same as yet another option. I thought the 50/50 halide & T5 combo might be the best from both worlds, but I suppose not in the end... 540 watts of T5s (about 625 watts at the outlet) provides about the same intensity, but the spread makes the corals pigment in all over their surface. It seems that if having to pick between a focused more intense light, and a light that is say, 30% less concentrated, but more 'diffused' (coming from more angles), SPS will go with the more diffused light. LPS, OTOH, have a harder time with this, so the tank either needs to be taller to compensate, or the corals need to be kept under/close to an overhang so they aren't getting light from every angle. If you like the 'deep blue sea' look more than a daylight look, T5s are better at making the 'blues' anyways.

I dont know what height your tank is, but with my lights, I wish I would have made the tank a little taller now... like 24"... so you should be covered. I also never used the highest output bulbs... lots of actinics and misc 'test bulbs' (to break them in for spectrometer testing), so my 10 bulbs were never nearly as powerful as they could be. If you like the more 'daylight' or 'day/blue' look (what you get when you use 10,000Ks and lots of blue T5's), you could use more daylight/6500K lamps, less actinics (plenty of blue+ bulbs though), and really scorch that tank from top to bottom.


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Unread 10/12/2008, 02:26 PM   #238
MileHighFish
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i am running the Taiwan hqi ballast... can i run a double ended bulb?? is it worth doing?? thanks


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Current Tank Info: Reef tank, 100 gal Lee Mar polished.. 60 sump.. 800 watts mh 20k radium..Ran on "Taiwan HQI Ballast" 330 watt VHO.. 48 watt compacts (dawn/dusk).. sps/lps tank..
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Unread 10/13/2008, 07:36 PM   #239
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Thanks Hahn for all the information
As for equipment on hand I have 2 - 250w ARO MH electronic ballast and 2-icecap 660 ballasts
So it comes down to the reflectors and bulbs or a mixture of both MH & T-5

If I wanted to stay with the 14k look
For a deep tank 36”-40”
Is there a point in tank depth where one setup would work out better between a 2-250 MH and a T-5 setup? Or would I need to go to 2-400w MH


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Unread 10/16/2008, 01:29 AM   #240
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Hello Sanjay.
Have you tested the new Sunlight supply Galaxy electronic ballast yet. I'm curious about the 175 w & 250 how they compare to the ice cap electronic ballast.
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Unread 10/16/2008, 10:41 AM   #241
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Hello,

Im currently setting up a 72 x 36 x 27 deep dimensions tank.

If will be a mixed reef, but will definately feature a large amount of SPS.

For lighting I am inclined to go with luminarc reflectors or lumanmax elite reflectors.

I love th color of the radium SE bulbs, so that will likely be my bulb of choice.

My question is should i go with 250 or 400 watts?

There seems to be a significant jump in par between the two (obviously).

However, after reading through the good doctors graphs and other info, the ballasts clearly are vastly different.

With all the new balasts that are now available, which do you feel will be best ballast for the job?

thanks very much

Junior


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Unread 10/16/2008, 04:28 PM   #242
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When possible, 400's are the better buy for efficiency it seems... but you had better have close to a 30" tall tank to really warrant their use... I think 27" works... If you use 400's, you just use less bulbs... Dual 400 watt HQI or 3x250wattHQI are so similar in wattage after all.

As for 400's, I would stick to HQI rated bulbs and run them on either HQI or HPS 430 ballasts (what most US made '400 watt HQI' ballasts are inside... pulse start sodium ballasts).

Also consider spectrum when looking at various wattages... most 10,000Kish bulbs have 2x the output of a 20,000Kish bulb.

While I could see Aquaconnect 14,000Ks in 400 watts over a tank like yours... Giesemann 14,500Ks (a more daylight bulb) might be too much. Ushio 20,000Ks might look nice, but pretty much make 400 watters needed since many 250watt 10,000Ks can rival them in output.


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Unread 10/17/2008, 10:15 AM   #243
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hahn-

Which 400 SE's are HQI rated anyway? I think Aquaconnect is. But most of the other I was consdiering running are not (Radium, Reflux 12k). I'm currently trying to decide what 400w ballast I should really get that would offer the most flexibilty with 400w bulbs. It doesnt seem to be HQI honestly.

My choices are the Bluewave 7 HQI 400w and the Galaxy electronic 400w. I'm leaning towards the Galaxy now with the good things I have been hearing about them and what seems like more flexibility in bulbs.


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Unread 10/17/2008, 10:16 AM   #244
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hahn-

Which 400 SE's are HQI rated anyway? I think Aquaconnect is. But most of the other I was consdiering running are not (Radium, Reflux 12k). I'm currently trying to decide what 400w ballast I should really get that would offer the most flexibilty with 400w bulbs. It doesnt seem to be HQI honestly.

My choices are the BLuewave 7 HQI 400w and the Galaxy electronic 400w. I'm leaning towards the Galaxy now with the good things I have been hearing about them and what seems like more flexibility in bulbs.


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Unread 10/17/2008, 11:21 AM   #245
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You are correct... most 400 bulbs in the US here are not HQI rated. The list is small:
Aquaconnect 14,000K

Ushio Aqualite/BLV Nepturion (non-CWA models) in 10,000K, 14,000K, and 20,000K.

Giesemann Megachrome 13,000K, 14,500K, and 20,000K.

I would say that for you, the Aquaconnect 14,000K is the 'bulb of choice'. The thing is, with 400 watt HQI's... yes, its a short list, but they are perhaps the best bulbs on the market as far as longevity, spectrum, and output.

Also, in the US, 400 watt HQI ballasts are nothing more than HPS 430 ballasts, so you can shop the horti suppliers and save some money.

You CAN run probe start bulbs on HQI... some like to (Radiums, Helios, etc)... but they do burn out faster. The ideal ballast for most of them is just a M59 ballast, or maybe an electronic. M59's are dirt cheap... electronics not so much. Then you can run your helios, coralvue reeflux, and others. Its just my take on it, but these are all cheaper bulbs for a reason. You can find which ever spectrum you really want from the HQI's mentioned above IME... only an Aquaconnect can go almost 2 years without replacing.

But the 'ballast confusion' is one reason why I like T5's now too... a 9 x 5' bulb config on your tank running on Icecap 660 ballasts would provide light levels as high if not higher than what you have now, of course, maybe without the shimmer... you have bulbs packed in that thing from front to back, left to right... you have a 'shimmerless halide' system right now though anyways...lol.


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Unread 10/17/2008, 11:42 AM   #246
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hahn-

Still, I do hear a lot of people seem to like Radium on electronic.

How would a 400W Aquaconnect do on a galaxy ballast anyway?


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Unread 10/17/2008, 12:42 PM   #247
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Radium on electronic... it is a classic combo that was very popular for a long time... I think that might be part of why its still seen today. The bulbs are toast every 5-6 months still. An e-ballast is still overdriving the Radiums after all... you would need a M135/155 ballast (low current) to run a Radium properly.
http://reef.eldersign.org/?cat=9

I dont know about Radium on a Galaxy as far as long term. It seems to me that according to Sanjay's long term tests, the electronics dont hurt the bulb too bad over time. IMO, the biggest drawback to underdriving a blue bulb is that you are often left with a very monochromatic result. A pheonix on a HQI ballast for instance is alot 'fuller' than on an e-ballast.

I would also suspect that the US HQI/HPS 430's are overdriving the Aquaconnect a good deal. When you compare the PFO HQI to the Taiwan HQI here (the PFO being a HPS ballast) you can see quite a difference:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...5/feature.html

The Taiwan HQI, a 'spec' HQI ballast, is at 448 watts with a PPFD of 134.8... and the PFO HPS 430 HQI is at 536 watts with a PPFD of 170.

Perhaps a good deal of the 'glory' that this bulb has is not because of the bulb itself, but from how it behaves on a HPS 430 ballast. Still, I hear from people going on 2 years with this combo w/o a problem.

But from that article, it seems like the Reef Fanatic ballast might run the bulb closest to HQI spec (448 watts, 141.5 PPFD)... of course we dont know if this bulb has any 'reactions' to being run at a higher frequency like Ushio 10-14,000K's do (usually not so much with bluer bulbs). Perhaps a call to Aquaconnect is in order...lol.

I cant recall... is the Galaxy supposed to be one of those higher power e-ballasts? Who knows.... it might be closer to true HQI spec than the HPS/PFO route. The only thing that worries me with HQI's on e-ballasts is the high frequency operation.

Gosh... halide gets confusing, doesn't it? Even those who should 'know everything' still cant because every bulb and every ballast combo has its own little quirks. All I can say is that I have seen the AC 14,000K on the HPS ballast, and know people who are running it for almost 2 years straight (last I checked) on those PFO/HPS ballasts and they are still going strong. They have a monster of an output as well... and their spectrum seems 'fuller' on the HQI ballast... less of that 'monochromatic blue' like you get with 250 watt pheonix, aquaconnect, and radium bulbs. Thats a tough call... thats why I defected to T5's...lol.


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Unread 10/17/2008, 01:12 PM   #248
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I've done a couple of searches and see some folks saying the galaxy ballast was actually DESIGNED to run 400w radiums. I dont know if this is really true, but it has me interested.

Also, another search turned up some info on the 400W galaxy ballasts saying it drives the bulbs at 425W. I dont know how this would compare to other e-ballasts.

If it really is driving the bulbs at 425W, I dont know ewhat this means for other bulbs like the Aquaconnect. Is it overdriving those too?


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Unread 10/17/2008, 01:18 PM   #249
juniormc8704
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WOW, and for a second there i thought i had a clue....

tragic...

Howabout a great combo that you would use on tank my size?

I will have T5 suppliments, so it doesnt have to be 20k by any means...just pretty=)


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Unread 10/17/2008, 01:42 PM   #250
onetrickpony
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Do you think these HPS ballast would fire the HQI Bulbs
http://www.ballastkit.com/highpressu...0a9ed46b2de5a1

Quote:
Originally posted by hahnmeister


As for 400's, I would stick to HQI rated bulbs and run them on either HQI or HPS 430 ballasts (what most US made '400 watt HQI' ballasts are inside... pulse start sodium ballasts).




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