Is it about time to change the T5 light bulbs? Par meter readings - Page 4

kangym · 07/03/2009, 06:22 PM

I will agree with "change the T5 lamps after 9 months".
I can see the difference in coral color and growth in two weeks with new lamps. Although the par reading for 10 months old lamps is not too bad, but they are no more in their "high peak". The growth rate slows down, and I have difficulty to keep the bright color of corals in my tank.

DML08 · 07/03/2009, 06:59 PM

Nice Ming!..

kangym · 07/03/2009, 09:54 PM

Thanks Grim reefer and DML08
So besides the par, is there anything else we should look into when a T5 lamp is out of its high peak?

The Grim Reefer · 07/03/2009, 10:16 PM

Spectrum shift. As the lamp ages the blue spectrum will decrease faster than the other.

SSpiro · 07/04/2009, 12:19 AM

Wow.. that tank is AMAZING.

I hope to get anything close to that one day. Maybe if I could beat my nutrient issues.

wayne in norway · 07/04/2009, 01:27 AM

What's the comparative PAR drop on a 20K MH on an electronic ballast. Pretty similar I believe. Comparing PAR drop with a mag ballast MH is not the same as it will shift up power and keep PAR constant. 20K's die faster than 10K's too.

I would not want to guesstimate PAR with a 4*24W Spower vs. a 150MH as MH are so very variable unit to unit. I would think that the sunpower will beat most MH/bulb/ballast combos and that would include most off the shelf pendants. I got rid of my 150's afeter I started comparing them to the twin 24W T5 unit on my nano. They were more powerful, but not as much as you would imagine.

kangym · 07/04/2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Grim Reefer
Spectrum shift. As the lamp ages the blue spectrum will decrease faster than the other.

like you mentioned early... "One thing you could do is put a new blue plus in and compare the look to an existing lamp. If there is a big difference I would go ahead and relamp. If not let it go a month and check again."

rhoptowit · 07/05/2009, 02:08 AM

hi, after reading this thread i decided to do some PAR measurements of my own. these were done with the apogee PAR meter model QMSW-SS set on electric calibration mode.

the first is on my 65 gallon tank lit with an ATI PM 6 bulb, the fixture is 2" above the water level. the bulb combo is...
front
ATI blue plus
ATI true actinic
UVL aqua sun
ATI blue plus
ATI aqua blue special
ATI blue plus
back

the bulbs were placed in my fixture on 8/28/09. so roughly 5 months of 11am to 11pm lighting schedule and 3 months of 1pm to 11pm after cutting my lighting schedule.

my second tank is a 20L lit with a 4 bulb ATI PM, the fixture is situated 4" above the water's surface. the bulb combo is.
front
ATI blue plus
Fiji purple
ATI aqua blue special
ATI blue plus
back

these bulbs were placed in the fixture on 01/09/2009 same lighting schedule as the 65 gallon.

idk if this will be much help as i dont have any info from when i first put these bulbs in this fixtures. but i suspect that after reading this the 36" fixture is not so great when compared to the other PMs. kinda bummed. i did notice the 36" PM runs alot hotter then my 24" PM, and the ATI true actinic in my 36" has seemed to diminish in visible output alot.

well hope this helps.

The Grim Reefer · 07/05/2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhoptowit
hi, after reading this thread i decided to do some PAR measurements of my own. these were done with the apogee PAR meter model QMSW-SS set on electric calibration mode.

the first is on my 65 gallon tank lit with an ATI PM 6 bulb, the fixture is 2" above the water level. the bulb combo is...
front
ATI blue plus
ATI true actinic
UVL aqua sun
ATI blue plus
ATI aqua blue special
ATI blue plus
back

the bulbs were placed in my fixture on 8/28/09. so roughly 5 months of 11am to 11pm lighting schedule and 3 months of 1pm to 11pm after cutting my lighting schedule.

my second tank is a 20L lit with a 4 bulb ATI PM, the fixture is situated 4" above the water's surface. the bulb combo is.
front
ATI blue plus
Fiji purple
ATI aqua blue special
ATI blue plus
back

these bulbs were placed in the fixture on 01/09/2009 same lighting schedule as the 65 gallon.

idk if this will be much help as i dont have any info from when i first put these bulbs in this fixtures. but i suspect that after reading this the 36" fixture is not so great when compared to the other PMs. kinda bummed. i did notice the 36" PM runs alot hotter then my 24" PM, and the ATI true actinic in my 36" has seemed to diminish in visible output alot.

well hope this helps.

PAR levels be damned, nice tanks

When you re-lamp the bigger one try

Front
ATI Blue Plus
UVL 75/25 or fiji purple
Blue Plus
GE 6500K Daylight
Blue Plus
Blue Plus

You will get about the same amount of Red from the GE and UVL lamps (Maybe a tad less) you get from the Aquasun now plus the GE tends to make green stuff look better. I don't think the PAR numbers are bad at all as far as what you are growing in that tank but I wouldn't go much over 10 months on the lamps.

SunnyX · 07/05/2009, 12:05 PM

I dont have PAR number for comparison but I recently swapped out all of my bulbs at the 10 month mark. Some of the blue and red corals had began to not look as vibrant as they once were so the bulbs were replaced. Since then, the colors are popping again and everything looks great. I could have gone 1 year on the bulbs but I demand absolutely the best colors from my corals.

kangym · 07/05/2009, 02:20 PM

Nice tanks! Thank you for chime in, rhoptowit
It is very interesting. The 3 ft ATI PM seems to have similar par reading to 2 ft ATI PM.
IMO, Under T5. if you have par reading from 250 to 300, it will be enough to keep SPS. To achieve better color and growth, it needs par at least 400. But in your tanks, it seems you still get pretty decent growth and color with par under 400. Nice works!

kangym · 07/05/2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SunnyX
I dont have PAR number for comparison but I recently swapped out all of my bulbs at the 10 month mark. Some of the blue and red corals had began to not look as vibrant as they once were so the bulbs were replaced. Since then, the colors are popping again and everything looks great. I could have gone 1 year on the bulbs but I demand absolutely the best colors from my corals.

I had tried 1:1 blue+ and AB special before. This lamp combo makes the tank looks pretty similar to the color of Radiums MH bulb. After adding GE6500 and Aqusun, I got more red, green and yellow color pop out. And most important, the growth rate seems better. I know you have tried many different T5 lamp combo. Could you share some of your findings?

BlueCorn · 07/06/2009, 07:30 AM

test

rhoptowit · 07/06/2009, 03:22 PM

thanks grim for the bulb suggestions, will try next time i order new bulbs.

kangym · 07/06/2009, 11:06 PM

rhoptowit: what is the height of your 2nd tank (20L)? I found the par reading under 2 ft ATI PM actually is higher than that of 3 ft ATI PM.
Love that red carpet!

Ti · 07/07/2009, 12:07 AM

nice tank man

wayne in norway · 07/07/2009, 01:03 PM

I guess if you apply the same cooling to 24 inches as to the longer tubes the shorter tube will cool better. That would help.

rhoptowit · 07/07/2009, 07:29 PM

^yea, and you'd think they would have compensated for the extra heat to be produced.

kangym: yup the tanks a 20L. so about 12". and thank for the compliment, i actually got that red carpet from a fellow RCer.

chiefzod · 07/12/2009, 05:51 AM

Hi,

I know the suggested time for swapping bulbs is 9-10 months to keep colours but has anyone done testing with dimmable units. I'm wandering how much this effects the life.

kangym · 07/25/2009, 06:46 PM

Time to update the par reading of 265G tank for 7 months old T5 lamps

Tank size: 84x24x30(H), 265G
Lighting: two ATI powdermodule 8 x 39W (3 feet fixture)
Light bulbs combination: from front to back
Blue+
Aquablue spec.
Blue+
Aqusun
Aqublue spec.
Blue+
GE 6500K
Blue+
Hanging height: 4 inches from water level
Age of lamps: 7 months
Lighting period: 2 blue+ for 10 hrs, and 8 hrs for the rest.

For easy comparison, I put the pictures of 5 months and 7 months readings side by side:

5 months par readings

7 months par readings

kangym · 07/25/2009, 06:54 PM

Generally, the par drops about 5 to 10% from 5 months to 7 months.
Is it enough for SPS? No, I thins it is not enough IMO. Observe the coral.... growth is slow, and color is dark.
I will not recommend 3ft T5 lighting for 30 in. height tank, unless I pile up the LR all the way to the top of the tank.

eros · 07/27/2009, 05:20 PM

At kangym's request here are the PAR numbers for my tank. It's a 75 gallon tank with 4 overdriven T5's on an Icecap 660 with the new Icecap T5 bulbs and using Icecap reflectors. These numbers were taken with brand new bulbs.

Bulb combo from back to front is:
Deepwater 14k
Reefcrest 10k
Twilight
Midwater 12k

The bulbs are being cooled with a total of 6 3" fans. 3 on each side, 2 blowing air out the back and 1 blowing air toward the front of the canopy to cool the bulbs as evenly as I can. The bulb at the top is a VHO actinic that was not on during my PAR testing.

I can hold my finger on the bulbs for a few seconds but no longer. I'd like to get an infared thermometer to get a more precise temp. I'm getting GREAT bulb life considering I'm overdriving. I did PAR testing using 2 6-8 month old bulbs(1 ATI Aquablue Special and 1 UVL Aquasun) along with 2 of the new Icecap bulbs and got roughly the same par numbers as the new bulbs.

kangym · 07/28/2009, 11:18 AM

Thank you for sharing eros.
It is very interesting to know the par reading for icecape overdriven lamps. Only four lamps, the par at mid level of the tank is about 200 to 300. And the tank looks very bright.
It is said the overdriven ballast will shorten the life the T5 lamp. It will be great if you could track the par reading for a few more months. and see how much the par drops?

Ancelot · 07/28/2009, 10:39 PM

sorry bros,
what is the difference between lux readings and par readings?

my lux reading for my T5HO:

direct under tubes: 10000
water surface, approx 4" below tubes: 7650
middle part of the tank: 2600
bottom of the tank, on sand bed: 1000

my tank is about 18" tall. I'm running on a self-diy 6x39W ATI tubes retrofit. Please advise if these readings are enough for full fledged SPS.

marc

wayne in norway · 07/29/2009, 05:38 AM

LUX should count the photons and then weight them with a weighting that takes into account the preferred spectrum of the human eye. PAR uses a weighting that takes into account the fact that photosynthetic organisms prefer to use some wavelenghs over some other wavelenghs. For example green is visible to use so it counts for lux, but corals, plants can't use it very well so it counts very badly for par. The opposite is true for blue.

Typically for MH you can divide LUX by 90 and get a close approximation of PAR, but because of the peaky nature of T5 spectra that doesn't work out so well, so divide lux by 50 and know it's a guesstimate.

I use both (because I have to borrow a PAR meter) and I am surprised your LUX numbers are that low. Are you using a cheap or expensive LUX meter - cheaper is better as they don't actually use the weighting, they have a flat weighting which means they correlate to PAR a little better. I have at least 37, 38000 underneath my 6 *54 unit before I turn fan cooling on. What ATI tubes?

07/03/2009, 10:16 PM	#79
The Grim Reefer Ready for some NOBALL!!! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Kingman Az Posts: 25,259	Spectrum shift. As the lamp ages the blue spectrum will decrease faster than the other. __________________ America, the way it outta be! Current Tank Info: 120 Starphire with Illudium Q-288 Photon Regurgitator DIY LED lighting

07/05/2009, 02:08 AM	#83
rhoptowit Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 415	hi, after reading this thread i decided to do some PAR measurements of my own. these were done with the apogee PAR meter model QMSW-SS set on electric calibration mode. the first is on my 65 gallon tank lit with an ATI PM 6 bulb, the fixture is 2" above the water level. the bulb combo is... front ATI blue plus ATI true actinic UVL aqua sun ATI blue plus ATI aqua blue special ATI blue plus back the bulbs were placed in my fixture on 8/28/09. so roughly 5 months of 11am to 11pm lighting schedule and 3 months of 1pm to 11pm after cutting my lighting schedule. my second tank is a 20L lit with a 4 bulb ATI PM, the fixture is situated 4" above the water's surface. the bulb combo is. front ATI blue plus Fiji purple ATI aqua blue special ATI blue plus back these bulbs were placed in the fixture on 01/09/2009 same lighting schedule as the 65 gallon. idk if this will be much help as i dont have any info from when i first put these bulbs in this fixtures. but i suspect that after reading this the 36" fixture is not so great when compared to the other PMs. kinda bummed. i did notice the 36" PM runs alot hotter then my 24" PM, and the ATI true actinic in my 36" has seemed to diminish in visible output alot. well hope this helps. __________________ the best democracy money can buy Current Tank Info: 65 gallon w/sump, ATB small, ATI PM, vortech, w/ DIY calcium rct

07/06/2009, 07:30 AM	#88
BlueCorn Retired Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,908	test __________________ Doug [I]Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made when establishing tonal relationships. ~ Ansel Adams[/I]

07/06/2009, 03:22 PM	#89
rhoptowit Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 415	thanks grim for the bulb suggestions, will try next time i order new bulbs. __________________ the best democracy money can buy Current Tank Info: 65 gallon w/sump, ATB small, ATI PM, vortech, w/ DIY calcium rct

07/07/2009, 12:07 AM	#91
Ti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 7,927	nice tank man __________________ Hair algae is my Macro algae.

07/03/2009, 06:22 PM	#76
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	I will agree with "change the T5 lamps after 9 months". I can see the difference in coral color and growth in two weeks with new lamps. Although the par reading for 10 months old lamps is not too bad, but they are no more in their "high peak". The growth rate slows down, and I have difficulty to keep the bright color of corals in my tank.

07/03/2009, 06:59 PM	#77
DML08 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: los banos, ca Posts: 994	Nice Ming!..

07/03/2009, 09:54 PM	#78
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	Thanks Grim reefer and DML08 So besides the par, is there anything else we should look into when a T5 lamp is out of its high peak?

07/04/2009, 12:19 AM	#80
SSpiro Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,942	Wow.. that tank is AMAZING. I hope to get anything close to that one day. Maybe if I could beat my nutrient issues.

07/04/2009, 01:27 AM	#81
wayne in norway Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 1,271	What's the comparative PAR drop on a 20K MH on an electronic ballast. Pretty similar I believe. Comparing PAR drop with a mag ballast MH is not the same as it will shift up power and keep PAR constant. 20K's die faster than 10K's too. I would not want to guesstimate PAR with a 4*24W Spower vs. a 150MH as MH are so very variable unit to unit. I would think that the sunpower will beat most MH/bulb/ballast combos and that would include most off the shelf pendants. I got rid of my 150's afeter I started comparing them to the twin 24W T5 unit on my nano. They were more powerful, but not as much as you would imagine.

07/05/2009, 12:05 PM	#85
SunnyX Moved On Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,991	I dont have PAR number for comparison but I recently swapped out all of my bulbs at the 10 month mark. Some of the blue and red corals had began to not look as vibrant as they once were so the bulbs were replaced. Since then, the colors are popping again and everything looks great. I could have gone 1 year on the bulbs but I demand absolutely the best colors from my corals.

07/05/2009, 02:20 PM	#86
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	Nice tanks! Thank you for chime in, rhoptowit It is very interesting. The 3 ft ATI PM seems to have similar par reading to 2 ft ATI PM. IMO, Under T5. if you have par reading from 250 to 300, it will be enough to keep SPS. To achieve better color and growth, it needs par at least 400. But in your tanks, it seems you still get pretty decent growth and color with par under 400. Nice works!

07/06/2009, 11:06 PM	#90
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	rhoptowit: what is the height of your 2nd tank (20L)? I found the par reading under 2 ft ATI PM actually is higher than that of 3 ft ATI PM. Love that red carpet!

07/07/2009, 01:03 PM	#92
wayne in norway Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 1,271	I guess if you apply the same cooling to 24 inches as to the longer tubes the shorter tube will cool better. That would help.

07/07/2009, 07:29 PM	#93
rhoptowit Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 415	^yea, and you'd think they would have compensated for the extra heat to be produced. kangym: yup the tanks a 20L. so about 12". and thank for the compliment, i actually got that red carpet from a fellow RCer. __________________ the best democracy money can buy Current Tank Info: 65 gallon w/sump, ATB small, ATI PM, vortech, w/ DIY calcium rct

07/12/2009, 05:51 AM	#94
chiefzod Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 124	Hi, I know the suggested time for swapping bulbs is 9-10 months to keep colours but has anyone done testing with dimmable units. I'm wandering how much this effects the life.

07/25/2009, 06:46 PM	#95
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	Time to update the par reading of 265G tank for 7 months old T5 lamps Tank size: 84x24x30(H), 265G Lighting: two ATI powdermodule 8 x 39W (3 feet fixture) Light bulbs combination: from front to back Blue+ Aquablue spec. Blue+ Aqusun Aqublue spec. Blue+ GE 6500K Blue+ Hanging height: 4 inches from water level Age of lamps: 7 months Lighting period: 2 blue+ for 10 hrs, and 8 hrs for the rest. For easy comparison, I put the pictures of 5 months and 7 months readings side by side: 5 months par readings 7 months par readings

07/25/2009, 06:54 PM	#96
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	Generally, the par drops about 5 to 10% from 5 months to 7 months. Is it enough for SPS? No, I thins it is not enough IMO. Observe the coral.... growth is slow, and color is dark. I will not recommend 3ft T5 lighting for 30 in. height tank, unless I pile up the LR all the way to the top of the tank.

07/27/2009, 05:20 PM	#97
eros Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Reno, Nevada Posts: 878	At kangym's request here are the PAR numbers for my tank. It's a 75 gallon tank with 4 overdriven T5's on an Icecap 660 with the new Icecap T5 bulbs and using Icecap reflectors. These numbers were taken with brand new bulbs. Bulb combo from back to front is: Deepwater 14k Reefcrest 10k Twilight Midwater 12k The bulbs are being cooled with a total of 6 3" fans. 3 on each side, 2 blowing air out the back and 1 blowing air toward the front of the canopy to cool the bulbs as evenly as I can. The bulb at the top is a VHO actinic that was not on during my PAR testing. I can hold my finger on the bulbs for a few seconds but no longer. I'd like to get an infared thermometer to get a more precise temp. I'm getting GREAT bulb life considering I'm overdriving. I did PAR testing using 2 6-8 month old bulbs(1 ATI Aquablue Special and 1 UVL Aquasun) along with 2 of the new Icecap bulbs and got roughly the same par numbers as the new bulbs. Last edited by eros; 07/27/2009 at 06:06 PM.

07/28/2009, 11:18 AM	#98
kangym Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CA Posts: 348	Thank you for sharing eros. It is very interesting to know the par reading for icecape overdriven lamps. Only four lamps, the par at mid level of the tank is about 200 to 300. And the tank looks very bright. It is said the overdriven ballast will shorten the life the T5 lamp. It will be great if you could track the par reading for a few more months. and see how much the par drops?

07/28/2009, 10:39 PM	#99
Ancelot Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 126	sorry bros, what is the difference between lux readings and par readings? my lux reading for my T5HO: direct under tubes: 10000 water surface, approx 4" below tubes: 7650 middle part of the tank: 2600 bottom of the tank, on sand bed: 1000 my tank is about 18" tall. I'm running on a self-diy 6x39W ATI tubes retrofit. Please advise if these readings are enough for full fledged SPS. marc __________________ Happy Reefing, Marc J.

07/29/2009, 05:38 AM	#100
wayne in norway Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 1,271	LUX should count the photons and then weight them with a weighting that takes into account the preferred spectrum of the human eye. PAR uses a weighting that takes into account the fact that photosynthetic organisms prefer to use some wavelenghs over some other wavelenghs. For example green is visible to use so it counts for lux, but corals, plants can't use it very well so it counts very badly for par. The opposite is true for blue. Typically for MH you can divide LUX by 90 and get a close approximation of PAR, but because of the peaky nature of T5 spectra that doesn't work out so well, so divide lux by 50 and know it's a guesstimate. I use both (because I have to borrow a PAR meter) and I am surprised your LUX numbers are that low. Are you using a cheap or expensive LUX meter - cheaper is better as they don't actually use the weighting, they have a flat weighting which means they correlate to PAR a little better. I have at least 37, 38000 underneath my 6 *54 unit before I turn fan cooling on. What ATI tubes?