how not to start a tank

y2msu · 01/01/2014, 06:03 PM

OK I went against what I was told and did everything wrong, and was successful.

tank size 55 minimum, mine is 28

never use water from the ocean, I went to the shore of North Carolina and filled up 3 - 5 gallon buckets with water at the beach

never use beach sand, I did, scooped it with a shovel into a bucket

don't use beach rock, I did.

change your water regularly, haven't needed to change mine yet.

never use tap water, I fill up a container and let it sit and top off my tank when needed.

I have 2 clowns, 1 damsel, 1 large shrimp, 3 hermit, 3 snails.

now its only been 4 months since I started the tank, but things are going great. I only have a basic hang on filter a protein skimmer and power head. no sump. when I first dumped the sand and water into the tank it was a mess, but after running the filters for a few days things really cleared up. I did buy a few small live rocks from the store but other than the fish and some extra saltwater to top off the tank at first, that's it.

as far as not changing the water, I use the vodka/vinegar method daily, and my numbers are perfect, it sounds weird, but it really works. Google it.

I know there will be a lot of "opinions" about this from the purist and those selling the things I got for free at the beach, but it does work. I also know some of the responses will be "your tank hasn't cycled yet" (it has, took 6 weeks, then I added the fish) and "you are asking for trouble", but I have never lost a fish. my fish are very healthy, and I love just watching the activity in my tank. I do take care of my tank daily, but putting in a few drops of vodka, cleaning out the skimmer, and feeding the fish is no big deal.

don't let the purist scare you, it doesn't have to be that difficult, start slow and cheap, then see where it goes.

rfgonzo · 01/01/2014, 06:14 PM

Good luck with that down the road. Time will tell

y2msu · 01/01/2014, 07:15 PM

I anticipate I will have issues in the future, but so do those that build their tanks "the right way", this forum is full of examples.

And perhaps what doesn't make sense to you is that it worked.

BlindZide · 01/01/2014, 07:34 PM

You know, I applaud your effort in jumping into this hobby in your own way. Most of the thousands upon thousands of members on this forum, and most other forums for that matter, follow the steps to correctly set up a tank because they do not want issues a year down the road that may cost a lot more money than it would have if they did it the right way to begin with.

That being said, some of us, like myself, don't follow that method to a "T". I did not take water, sand, or rocks from my local beaches because I want to stay out of jail and I pay enough in taxes that I don't want to risk paying fines. I do not have an RO/DI unit. I do monthly water changes and mix with tap water. I top off with tap water but my water is fairly clean so I have no worries.

The methods listed are proven to PREVENT issues down the road. Keep that in mind. They are safety nets and help REDUCE the amount of problems the reefer will encounter. Who knows, you may not have any issues at all. Best of luck!

usmc121581 · 01/02/2014, 04:42 AM

Everything you did, a local community collage did when I lived in SC and within a year in didnt go well. Your basically bragging that you did the complete opposite and succeeded however you have only had it up roughly 4 months. Also I know alot of people who use tap water so that part is pointless. Once the pollutants make there way out of the sand and the fish get bigger and need to be feed more and the skimmer cant keep up just remember this thread. Also I hope you dont plan on ever having corals because there are a coming reasons why they dont grow this far up and its not just that its cold.

However good job so far I guess, but I would never do it I have to much wrapped up I to my tank.

trae · 01/02/2014, 05:03 AM

See ya in the Hitchhiker/water chemistry/Id please forum. I know it is cheaper but you can't control what comes with the rock. Every time I flip a beach rock over about five mantis shrimp fly out and its covered with this weird snail looking stuff that I can't currently Id at the moment out of fear of touching it.

Mr. Bill · 01/02/2014, 05:19 AM

Once upon a time, large tanks had to be DIY or custom-built, not readily available to the average Joe.

Artificial salt was originally created for those who had no access to a beach.

Tap water filtration was originally designed for those who had extremely hard or soft water.

My point is, there were many successful SW tanks just a few decades ago that were small, and were run with NSW and/or tap water, including mine (20g). Not saying the new technology and methods are wrong, but not using them doesn't always equate to inevitable disaster, either.

JM2C

littlec984 · 01/02/2014, 05:58 AM

I am not gonna sit here and bash you are anything. I hope your success continues, but you should also prepare for the worst

y2msu · 02/06/2014, 07:02 AM

Update, 5 months - numbers are still perfect, fish doing great, haven't changed water. I am trying to manage cyano, but after visiting local aquarium specialty stores I noticed they all have at least a few tanks with cyano, and they sell/use filtered water, and use packaged substrate? I have ordered 2 stronger circulation pumps to see if that helps, because my current one is pretty weak. I'll post again next month.

sponger0 · 02/06/2014, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by y2msu

Update, 5 months - numbers are still perfect, fish doing great, haven't changed water. I am trying to manage cyano, but after visiting local aquarium specialty stores I noticed they all have at least a few tanks with cyano, and they sell/use filtered water, and use packaged substrate? I have ordered 2 stronger circulation pumps to see if that helps, because my current one is pretty weak. I'll post again next month.

And the algae problems begin.........

giloop · 02/06/2014, 10:18 AM

Your are very brave starting this thread. I am very curious how it will turn out. Then only thing is ask is that you be honest if it doesn't. I am rooting for you though!

leveldrummer · 02/06/2014, 10:24 AM

People tell you not to use beach rock and sand because its illegal, If you get caught, you stand to pay thousands in fines for stealing approximately 50 dollars worth of crap.

there are thousands of ways to be successful in the hobby. Just like there are a thousand roads to drive across the country. The best bet is to take the interstate and wear your seat belt. Sure you can ride on the hood if you want, and you might make it, but its a bad idea.

Good luck with your tank, your gonna need it.

whosurcaddie · 02/06/2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

And the algae problems begin.........

Cyano happens to people with the most pristine tanks also.

sponger0 · 02/06/2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whosurcaddie

Cyano happens to people with the most pristine tanks also.

Oh cause Im sure for no nutrient export tank that uses tank water, nutrients arent causing it. Ha!

leveldrummer · 02/06/2014, 01:46 PM

so do you have any corals?

Reef Frog · 02/06/2014, 02:23 PM

Natural saltwater is fine, especially for a FOWLR, as long as its clean. Done all the time.

Four months of time isn't enough to provide proof of concept however, especially if you will be doing a stony coral reef. I'm sure it's possible but I'd save the high fives for a later date. Best of luck!

Bpb · 02/06/2014, 03:44 PM

Hate to say it but 5 months isn't enough time to denote success. A year isn't even enough time. You won't even be done with you natural algae waves in a year time experienced by most new tanks. I won't comment on your methods because your ultimate goal in keeping a tank will dictate your methods...but if your only goal is keeping fish alive, then for 5 months, yes you've been successful. Just know that true REEF success is keeping difficult corals which not only survive, but grow and thrive for years, not months.

Again, not knocking you method, just disagreeing with your definition of success.

Also...what are perfect numbers? Zero ammonia? Yeah no tank should ever read ammonia. Phosphate? An API test says 0.2 ppm is "good". Most reefers would consider 0.2 ppm phosphates a disaster. Point being, no such thing as "perfect" numbers, especially when you don't specify exactly what numbers are perfect and what tests you're using to get these numbers.

Khemul · 02/06/2014, 03:50 PM

The trick to sticking it to the purist, is to come up with something they can't point to and say "See, that is why we don't do that!".

I am surprised no one has requested pics yet though.

G_Sanab922 · 03/04/2014, 10:41 AM

Have to agree with what others have said. It is ILLEGAL to get any rock or sand PERIOD! After much research, harvest of live rock in the United States is illegal.
I live in the Florida keys, I don't know specific laws for South Carolina but I would imagine it would be somewhat the same. Just to put it short and sweet, if you are caught doing anything illegal such as harvesting live rock, illegal species or wrong size for that particular species, you are arrested on the spot and are on probation for 6 months and can't even touch any body of water for 6 months as well. And if that particular species happens to be endangered, then it's a bit worse. Oh and of course, you have to pay for all the fines and court costs. That doesn't sound good to me.

Now getting the water is another story, that's completely legal. But I've realized that shore water doesn't work for most people. I hope it does for you but I've been advised otherwise.

I'm also somewhat new to this hobby, many friends have told me not to go the cheap way because in the end you will end up spending more money. Of course, I will be able to cut cost because of where I live. I get my own saltwater from the reef (put it in my live well in my boat), catch fish the LEGAL way with a slurp gun. But there are just some things that you SHOULDN'T do.
Hope your tank thrives but remember, you've been warned by everyone!

BlueCorn · 03/04/2014, 01:27 PM

This thread has been moved to the current forum.

Palting · 03/04/2014, 01:54 PM

Very interesting. A rebel who succeeds is always interesting.

However, you have not succeeded yet, y2msu. You have to wait at least 2 years before you can claim that. In the meantime, I do wish you luck and encourage you to continue your rebel ways. I want to see what happens.

It would also be nice, if not an acutal proof of thinbgs, if you can post photos. Most of us, including myself, like to brag about our tanks by posting photos. Looking forward to those photos of the "Rebel Tank"!!

dkeller_nc · 03/04/2014, 02:23 PM

Hmm I hesitated to post this, because most of the forum members already know it. But ...

There's absolutely no reason why you can't keep saltwater fish (at least most of them) so long as the tank has some sort of solid substrate, some sort of circulation, a heater, and some means of replacing water lost to evaporation. A viewing light is nice, but optional.

The above isn't a surprise to any of us "purists", many of us have done this repeatedly when necessary.

But it doesn't make it a reef tank!

ExploitedSanity · 03/04/2014, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by y2msu

OK I went against what I was told and did everything wrong, and was successful.

tank size 55 minimum, mine is 28

never use water from the ocean, I went to the shore of North Carolina and filled up 3 - 5 gallon buckets with water at the beach

never use beach sand, I did, scooped it with a shovel into a bucket

don't use beach rock, I did.

change your water regularly, haven't needed to change mine yet.

never use tap water, I fill up a container and let it sit and top off my tank when needed.

I have 2 clowns, 1 damsel, 1 large shrimp, 3 hermit, 3 snails.

now its only been 4 months since I started the tank, but things are going great. I only have a basic hang on filter a protein skimmer and power head. no sump. when I first dumped the sand and water into the tank it was a mess, but after running the filters for a few days things really cleared up. I did buy a few small live rocks from the store but other than the fish and some extra saltwater to top off the tank at first, that's it.

as far as not changing the water, I use the vodka/vinegar method daily, and my numbers are perfect, it sounds weird, but it really works. Google it.

I know there will be a lot of "opinions" about this from the purist and those selling the things I got for free at the beach, but it does work. I also know some of the responses will be "your tank hasn't cycled yet" (it has, took 6 weeks, then I added the fish) and "you are asking for trouble", but I have never lost a fish. my fish are very healthy, and I love just watching the activity in my tank. I do take care of my tank daily, but putting in a few drops of vodka, cleaning out the skimmer, and feeding the fish is no big deal.

don't let the purist scare you, it doesn't have to be that difficult, start slow and cheap, then see where it goes.

Is that you Paul B?

neuro · 03/04/2014, 03:42 PM

we can have a better idea of how currently you are successful if you post up pictures.

JackandJill · 03/04/2014, 03:50 PM

Keeping a few damsels and clowns, regardless of time, is still not a success in many people's books. Just because hardy fish can survive does not mean it is optimal conditions, or the same would be true for more delicate animals.

01/01/2014, 06:03 PM	#1
y2msu Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 7	how not to start a tank OK I went against what I was told and did everything wrong, and was successful. tank size 55 minimum, mine is 28 never use water from the ocean, I went to the shore of North Carolina and filled up 3 - 5 gallon buckets with water at the beach never use beach sand, I did, scooped it with a shovel into a bucket don't use beach rock, I did. change your water regularly, haven't needed to change mine yet. never use tap water, I fill up a container and let it sit and top off my tank when needed. I have 2 clowns, 1 damsel, 1 large shrimp, 3 hermit, 3 snails. now its only been 4 months since I started the tank, but things are going great. I only have a basic hang on filter a protein skimmer and power head. no sump. when I first dumped the sand and water into the tank it was a mess, but after running the filters for a few days things really cleared up. I did buy a few small live rocks from the store but other than the fish and some extra saltwater to top off the tank at first, that's it. as far as not changing the water, I use the vodka/vinegar method daily, and my numbers are perfect, it sounds weird, but it really works. Google it. I know there will be a lot of "opinions" about this from the purist and those selling the things I got for free at the beach, but it does work. I also know some of the responses will be "your tank hasn't cycled yet" (it has, took 6 weeks, then I added the fish) and "you are asking for trouble", but I have never lost a fish. my fish are very healthy, and I love just watching the activity in my tank. I do take care of my tank daily, but putting in a few drops of vodka, cleaning out the skimmer, and feeding the fish is no big deal. don't let the purist scare you, it doesn't have to be that difficult, start slow and cheap, then see where it goes.

01/01/2014, 07:34 PM	#4
BlindZide Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 1,273	You know, I applaud your effort in jumping into this hobby in your own way. Most of the thousands upon thousands of members on this forum, and most other forums for that matter, follow the steps to correctly set up a tank because they do not want issues a year down the road that may cost a lot more money than it would have if they did it the right way to begin with. That being said, some of us, like myself, don't follow that method to a "T". I did not take water, sand, or rocks from my local beaches because I want to stay out of jail and I pay enough in taxes that I don't want to risk paying fines. I do not have an RO/DI unit. I do monthly water changes and mix with tap water. I top off with tap water but my water is fairly clean so I have no worries. The methods listed are proven to PREVENT issues down the road. Keep that in mind. They are safety nets and help REDUCE the amount of problems the reefer will encounter. Who knows, you may not have any issues at all. Best of luck! __________________ ~Trent Biocube 14 Mixed Reef 75G LPS Reef

01/02/2014, 04:42 AM	#5
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	Everything you did, a local community collage did when I lived in SC and within a year in didnt go well. Your basically bragging that you did the complete opposite and succeeded however you have only had it up roughly 4 months. Also I know alot of people who use tap water so that part is pointless. Once the pollutants make there way out of the sand and the fish get bigger and need to be feed more and the skimmer cant keep up just remember this thread. Also I hope you dont plan on ever having corals because there are a coming reasons why they dont grow this far up and its not just that its cold. However good job so far I guess, but I would never do it I have to much wrapped up I to my tank. __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

01/02/2014, 05:03 AM	#6
trae DR Octopod Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Honolulu Posts: 380	See ya in the Hitchhiker/water chemistry/Id please forum. I know it is cheaper but you can't control what comes with the rock. Every time I flip a beach rock over about five mantis shrimp fly out and its covered with this weird snail looking stuff that I can't currently Id at the moment out of fear of touching it. __________________ For a fish today, i will gladly pay you Tuesday. What tha Frag! Current Tank Info: 240gal mixed reef build in the works

01/02/2014, 05:19 AM	#7
Mr. Bill Native Floridian Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Top of the Bay Posts: 256	Once upon a time, large tanks had to be DIY or custom-built, not readily available to the average Joe. Artificial salt was originally created for those who had no access to a beach. Tap water filtration was originally designed for those who had extremely hard or soft water. My point is, there were many successful SW tanks just a few decades ago that were small, and were run with NSW and/or tap water, including mine (20g). Not saying the new technology and methods are wrong, but not using them doesn't always equate to inevitable disaster, either. JM2C __________________ Enjoying the saltwater hobby since 1974.

01/01/2014, 06:14 PM	#2
rfgonzo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,280	Good luck with that down the road. Time will tell

01/01/2014, 07:15 PM	#3
y2msu Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 7	I anticipate I will have issues in the future, but so do those that build their tanks "the right way", this forum is full of examples. And perhaps what doesn't make sense to you is that it worked.

01/02/2014, 05:58 AM	#8
littlec984 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 105	I am not gonna sit here and bash you are anything. I hope your success continues, but you should also prepare for the worst

02/06/2014, 07:02 AM	#9
y2msu Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 7	Update, 5 months - numbers are still perfect, fish doing great, haven't changed water. I am trying to manage cyano, but after visiting local aquarium specialty stores I noticed they all have at least a few tanks with cyano, and they sell/use filtered water, and use packaged substrate? I have ordered 2 stronger circulation pumps to see if that helps, because my current one is pretty weak. I'll post again next month.

02/06/2014, 10:18 AM	#11
giloop Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Gastonia, NC Posts: 38	Your are very brave starting this thread. I am very curious how it will turn out. Then only thing is ask is that you be honest if it doesn't. I am rooting for you though!

02/06/2014, 10:24 AM	#12
leveldrummer Reefer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,831	People tell you not to use beach rock and sand because its illegal, If you get caught, you stand to pay thousands in fines for stealing approximately 50 dollars worth of crap. there are thousands of ways to be successful in the hobby. Just like there are a thousand roads to drive across the country. The best bet is to take the interstate and wear your seat belt. Sure you can ride on the hood if you want, and you might make it, but its a bad idea. Good luck with your tank, your gonna need it.

02/06/2014, 01:46 PM	#15
leveldrummer Reefer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,831	so do you have any corals?

02/06/2014, 02:23 PM	#16
Reef Frog Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,121	Natural saltwater is fine, especially for a FOWLR, as long as its clean. Done all the time. Four months of time isn't enough to provide proof of concept however, especially if you will be doing a stony coral reef. I'm sure it's possible but I'd save the high fives for a later date. Best of luck!

02/06/2014, 03:44 PM	#17
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	Hate to say it but 5 months isn't enough time to denote success. A year isn't even enough time. You won't even be done with you natural algae waves in a year time experienced by most new tanks. I won't comment on your methods because your ultimate goal in keeping a tank will dictate your methods...but if your only goal is keeping fish alive, then for 5 months, yes you've been successful. Just know that true REEF success is keeping difficult corals which not only survive, but grow and thrive for years, not months. Again, not knocking you method, just disagreeing with your definition of success. Also...what are perfect numbers? Zero ammonia? Yeah no tank should ever read ammonia. Phosphate? An API test says 0.2 ppm is "good". Most reefers would consider 0.2 ppm phosphates a disaster. Point being, no such thing as "perfect" numbers, especially when you don't specify exactly what numbers are perfect and what tests you're using to get these numbers.

02/06/2014, 03:50 PM	#18
Khemul Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 988	The trick to sticking it to the purist, is to come up with something they can't point to and say "See, that is why we don't do that!". I am surprised no one has requested pics yet though.

03/04/2014, 10:41 AM	#19
G_Sanab922 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Keys Posts: 1,392	Have to agree with what others have said. It is ILLEGAL to get any rock or sand PERIOD! After much research, harvest of live rock in the United States is illegal. I live in the Florida keys, I don't know specific laws for South Carolina but I would imagine it would be somewhat the same. Just to put it short and sweet, if you are caught doing anything illegal such as harvesting live rock, illegal species or wrong size for that particular species, you are arrested on the spot and are on probation for 6 months and can't even touch any body of water for 6 months as well. And if that particular species happens to be endangered, then it's a bit worse. Oh and of course, you have to pay for all the fines and court costs. That doesn't sound good to me. Now getting the water is another story, that's completely legal. But I've realized that shore water doesn't work for most people. I hope it does for you but I've been advised otherwise. I'm also somewhat new to this hobby, many friends have told me not to go the cheap way because in the end you will end up spending more money. Of course, I will be able to cut cost because of where I live. I get my own saltwater from the reef (put it in my live well in my boat), catch fish the LEGAL way with a slurp gun. But there are just some things that you SHOULDN'T do. Hope your tank thrives but remember, you've been warned by everyone!

03/04/2014, 01:27 PM	#20
BlueCorn Retired Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,908	This thread has been moved to the current forum. __________________ Doug [I]Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made when establishing tonal relationships. ~ Ansel Adams[/I]

03/04/2014, 01:54 PM	#21
Palting Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,912	Very interesting. A rebel who succeeds is always interesting. However, you have not succeeded yet, y2msu. You have to wait at least 2 years before you can claim that. In the meantime, I do wish you luck and encourage you to continue your rebel ways. I want to see what happens. It would also be nice, if not an acutal proof of thinbgs, if you can post photos. Most of us, including myself, like to brag about our tanks by posting photos. Looking forward to those photos of the "Rebel Tank"!! __________________ Anything I post is just an opinion. One of many in this hobby. Believe and follow at your own risk of rapid and complete annihilation of all life in your tank :) Current Tank Info: Incept 3/2010, 150 RR, 50g sump, 20g fuge, 150w 15K MH x3, T5 actinics x8, moonlight LED x6, 1400gph return, Koralia 1400 x4, 300 g skimmer, 4 tangs, 2 mandarins, 2 perc, 6 line, 3 cardinals, 2 firefish, SPS, LPS, zoas, palys, shrooms, clam

03/04/2014, 02:23 PM	#22
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	Hmm I hesitated to post this, because most of the forum members already know it. But ... There's absolutely no reason why you can't keep saltwater fish (at least most of them) so long as the tank has some sort of solid substrate, some sort of circulation, a heater, and some means of replacing water lost to evaporation. A viewing light is nice, but optional. The above isn't a surprise to any of us "purists", many of us have done this repeatedly when necessary. But it doesn't make it a reef tank!

03/04/2014, 03:42 PM	#24
neuro the cat did it Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: bay area Posts: 976	we can have a better idea of how currently you are successful if you post up pictures.

03/04/2014, 03:50 PM	#25
JackandJill Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 249	Keeping a few damsels and clowns, regardless of time, is still not a success in many people's books. Just because hardy fish can survive does not mean it is optimal conditions, or the same would be true for more delicate animals.