STN (sps coral dieing from base up) and how to reverse it?

[cheech]

I'm having some bad luck with my SPS frags. hoping someone can shed some light on how to fix this problem.

Tank is a 90g, about 120 lbs of live rock, been setup since Jan. 2011 45 gallon fuge and 50 gallon sump.

Nitrates 5-10 ppm
Phosphates 0
Cal 480
Alk 7
Mag 1800

400 Ml of Vertex biopellets
Vertex 180 skimmer

Water is run through a 6 stage RODI/Chloramine system

And I have a filter sock that gets replaced every 3 days in the sump.

Lastly, lighting is through a Maxspect 160 LED.

I've been reading up on this, and what I came up with is that it's lacking nutrients. I'm thinking of removing the filter sock and hope that it helps replenish some missing nutrients in the tank...

Any advice would greatly be appreciated

[capt85]

Hmm. If only from january that tank is still pretty new. Especially for SPS.

But I do see alot of coraline. Did you use all seeded live rock?

[cheech]

My tank has been setup for years. In November I tore down the tank (got married, moved) and the rock had been sitting in a tub for months.

[Sk8r]

Several possibilities: you know that phosphate tests won't pick up 'bound' phosphate, ie, phosphate in rock, sand, and algae. If enough is continually leaching to impact the coral, that would do it. It'll never show on the test. Being near a phosphate source, like raw sand, really likely to do it.

If the light distance from light isn't what it likes.

And your alk is quite, quite low, which I know it won't like. Get it to 8.3 at least. My params are for lps stony, but they'd apply pretty well. Didn't see a mg reading, nor cal. You might try a kalk drip, bring those readings up, then put lime in your ATO reservoir.

[cheech]

Thank you for the advice.

In the case that my rocks are leaching out phosphates, is there anything I can do to rectify the problem?

[Sk8r]

GFO, and a fuge. Polyfilter also removes phosphate.

[OwenInAZ]

Safe bet is to frag a bit of the still living tip in case the whole thing goes. But as mentioned above, stony corals like a bit higher alk, and you can remove the phosphate chemically with some GFO.

[pitako8]

Any reason you are keeping your Mg level at 1800? That's very high.

[BowieReefer84]

What are you doing for alk/cal supplementation? Dosing or reactor? Maybe you had an ALK SWING, and this causes stn. Also, it is low in general at this time. I also had an issue where my sps started stn b/c of an alk swing. My nitrates were also testing zero using the salifert low range (looking thru rather than down)....

I started with some reef roids, coral accel, cyclopeeze, pe mysis, etc for feeding the tank. I used to only use spectrum pellets... I use these in very small amounts (less than the recommended dose). I am continuing to monitor my nitrates, and I am testing my alk every few days right now.

Polyfilter and GFO would only help as well.

Goodluck!

[cheech]

Thank you for the advice.

The only noticable swing on chemicals would have been my calcium. The salt I purchase (can't remember the name right now) has pretty high levels of cal, alk, and mag. Without dosing, my water usually maintains 480 cal, 6-7ish alk, and 1800 mag. At one point I started dosing both alk and cal. Cal went as high as 520, (this was about 2 weeks ago, coincidentally the same time my frags started bleaching).

After some research, it seems like 520 cal isn't anything worth worrying about. At that point I stopped dosing and levels are starting to get back to 480.

I'll try the polyfilter, but can't use a GFO (I'm running Vertex biopellets and it says not to use any phosphate remover together with those pellets).


Should I try removing the filter sock for a few weeks to see if the problem is that the sock takes out needed nutrients that would be beneficial for the frags?

In case it helps, here's a couple of pictures of my setup:

[Sk8r]

sps wants low nutrient hyper-clear water, so removing the sock would not help.

[Sk8r]

any time I try to solve a puzzle, I ask 'what's unusual about this setup', and your answer seems to be 'Vertex bio pellets.' Just sayin'. Can you tell us when this began, what they are, and whether you've got any possible connection to the sps problem.

[BowieReefer84]

If you had a Calcium swing you also would of had a more drastic Alk swing. Calcium changes much more slowly than alk. You should get your levels in check. 6-7 Alk is too low. I would say get it to at least 8, and maintain it steady.

You may only have SPS frags/small colonies, but that corraline algae will go through some Alk in no time. I think you may want to start dosing or something.

[thereefranch]

I have been using the Bio Pellets as well for about a year now. I have a SPS dominated reef tank. The colors are awesome with the bio pellets compared to years of DSB's and Mud Filters. I still use some mud and have a DSB in my connected frag tank. I had a problem with the SPS dieing from the bottom up and found that limiting the buffer to no more than 8dkh stopped the dieing. I keep my tank at just under 8dkh with the calcium around 420 or so. In my experience, I found that the bio-pellets make the tank water much closer to natural seawater as far as nitrates and phosphates are concerned, so the buffer and calcium needs to be in line as well. Natural Sea Water is around 7dkh and 410 calcium balanced. You may consider lowering the buffer down to 7 and see. I bet you will see a stop in the dieing and a clear line where the coral is healing. Also, be carefull with water changes as this will raise the buffer depending on the amount you do. I used to do them once a week at 10-20% and now have cut back to once a month at 15%. Add supps to make up the difference...... Your water changes were most likely changing your alk and thats what led to the dieing in your case. Your addition of any calcium or alk would have added to the problem.

Put a GFO reactor on your tank and run it at a lower amount than you would normaly. You still need phosphate removal, just not as much as before. Check your phosphate levels once a week with a colorimeter and keep it at around .02ppm or lower. Just the pellets alone will not keep them down unless you have no fish and don't feed. Otherwise, put a reactor on it and moderate the flow to keep your tank in line. Speed up the flow if they rise, or slow it down slightly if the test shows 0ppm.

Another thing that you may consider is keeping a balanced ratio in your tank. I never have my calcium unbalanced with the buffer. 450+ calcium breeds a lot of buffer problems with the pellets. Keep things balanced.....7 to 410, or 8 to 430 or so. If your way up there in calcium, then your buffer is just as off. Its not a matter of how much as it is the right amounts. Same with Mg., etc.

Last thing is the most important.....patience. The corals I have had the longest are the easiest to keep. SPS is no exception. Any time you make a change ( like reducing nitrates, reducing phosphates etc., or even increasing them) each coral is affected differently. SPS show the most. Other corals change colors, may not open, etc. Some may not change at all. But your focus should be on stability. Even water changes with a LNS can affect stabilty.

NOTE** If your not running bio-pellets, then discard the above as DSB's and Mud filters, etc. all respond to higher buffer and calcium numbers. 20+ years of it, but never the natural sps colors possible with the LNS that pellets, vodka, or Zeo offer. If you have any questions pm me. I hope this helps as I have no hair left after switching to pellets, but now have a handle on it with an empty wallet.... but its easier than I thought. What you may think you know just might be exactly opposite of what you should be doing with new technology.

thereefranch
210G - Mixed Reef - 50G 'Bio Trac' Sump w/refugium and cheto tumbler - Super Reef Octo 5000 skimmer - 1600w of light - 40G connected frag tank

[cheech]

^^

Thank you for the comments. I'm still a little hesitant to add a GFP on the system as the specific biopellets being used say not to use any phosban remover whatsoever... I'll start off with my levels and see what comes out of it. As of yet the only SPS frag (of the few that I have) that is doing well is a birdsnest. The rest all started bleaching from the base up.

I think I'll take things very slowly and wait until my system is very stable before adding any further SPS pieces, then I'll see how things go from there.

[gregr]

thereefranch- that was just about the best post I've read on RC. Just a ton of pertinent and helpful info- THANKS!
Cheech- my guess was alkalinity swing too. High (not sky high) phosphate levels lead to brown and non-growing acros in my experience, not so much stn. The 1800 mag reading is crazy- I wonder if your test kit is accurate or maybe you tested right after dosing?
You got some great advice here.

[ReefTawlk]

Thanks thereefranch. We are currently going through a similar issue with our stag and the only thing I changed was how I dosed the Alk. We have always had around 7 dKh but good Ca levels (around 410 ppm) just by doing regular water changes. My plan was to stop dosing for a while and just monitor, your answer helped convince me I am on the right track. Thanks!

[gjk]

Good information to all here, thanks for the help!

[somethingphishy]

Suprised no one asked about flow?

[Tigé21v]

Maybe I missed it, but do you run carbon?

[kiel]

just a quick question, can anyone advise if acropora will have trouble regrowing lost tissue once there are diatoms on the bare skelton?

[DustinB]

It will grow back over the dead spots.

IME, STN from the base or middle has always been a sign of low alk, but as others have stated there could be many issues. Low alk, alk swings, low flow, phosphate concentrations, etc...

[NyReefNoob]

i dont believe the bio-pellet and needing low alk and cal, as i have been running them for around 8 months now with cal of 450-470 alk 9 and mag 1350 or so, i do not have any rtn or anything of the such myself. i do have awesome color and growth, i dont run phosban or carbon nor do i have a fuge of any type, i do run a monster skimmer though,

having the swings is more then likely the problem especially if your getting alk swings, even though the rock may have been kept alive and in water your tank still will have went through another cycle when you reset it back up

[gary faulkner]

thereefranch

Great first post! and






To Reef Central

[Ponganunt]

This is the very good comment [thereefeanch]