My Tank Thread (Take3) ★Total AUTOMATION★ DIY Doser, Sump, AlgaeScrubber, WaterChnges - Page 14

Wally.B · 08/31/2017, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Cheato and other algea need other elements to be healthy- potassium, iron, even boron.. maybe even iodine. If your system is limited in one of these, it'd stop algea growth..
Also think you are in the right track with a reduced photoperiod..

My assumption was twice a week 5% Water Changes, with Tropic Marin PRO Salt should be keep ALL Elements up.

To validate that, I'll test Potassium with Salifert Kit which I been too lazy to do on Regular Basis.
I don't dose any Potassium. So it will be an informative test. (Corals and Algae use it up).
I do have a 1kg Bag of KCL that I've never cracked open, since every test I've done it K was 390ppm.

I've read that Raising K too high leads to Algae Blooms. Don't want that, but with my ATS setup, I may have some wiggle room for higher K.

I also have an Salifert Iodine test kit. Used it only once. Why not do that too!! That would cover 2 out of 4 Elements you list above.

Wally.B · 08/31/2017, 09:49 PM

Potassium test shows a nice 400 ppm.

No point testing Iodine, I trust the Water Changes with Good Salt are doing the job. If K was even slightly off I would.

Let's see what the ATS photo period change does.

Wally.B · 08/31/2017, 11:33 PM

ALGAE SCRUBBER (Perpetual Nutrient Recycling Machine) Cowrie Snail

Matt,

I got a crazy theory about the Algae Scrubber stopping. IT Hasn't STOPPED!!
It hit me tonight, after posting on the Scrubber Form and explaining what was happening. (Scrubber Shutdown).

You mentioned this to me a while ago when I posted a comment about placing that Cowrie into my Sump a while ago. The one that shaved my SPS polyps clean.

I said I was placing him in the Algae Scrubber and he would have a feast.
You said it would be interesting if he recycled/consumed the Algae in the scrubber and created a 2nd nutrient byproduct with his waste (poo).

That Cowrie died a while ago (Nice shell, I have in on my Keyboard). But if you remember I had two, and I gave one to my brother in law since he was having GHA problems, but no SPS.
He kept it till he tore his tank apart not too long ago. I took it from him and put his Cowrie into my ATS. Not too long ago. Sometime this summer.

Now Cowrie wouldn't eat Macro Algae which is what the scrubber used to make.
100+ grams every 2 weeks. I think the first Cowrie died since Macro was all the Scrubber would make. N & P was high thus enough to produce macro.

However with my rebuild, and more water changes, N & P dropped.
Scrubber slowed down. Brother in Laws Cowrie went in around that time.
Every week, less and less Macro is what I was observing.
Couple week ago, I pulled out last Macro Clump. It wasn't even attached to Scrubber screen. Just floating.

So now the Scrubber only makes the fine GHA film on the screens.
Let's say like before 100 Grams every two weeks. That's 1.6 grams a day.
Maybe the Cowrie is consuming the screen algae (He loves the stuff, I have timelapse videos of him cleaning GHA off 1/4 of my Rockscape overnight. Way back during my GHA bloom, the big one.).
He is now trapped in my ATS section.

So he is recycling the Algae. Now comes the interesting part.
My P has dropped to around 0.05 on average, but N is hanging around 25.
A scrubber removes both N & P, but Cowrie is putting it back as another form.

The Scrubber is first section of sump. The Skimmer 2nd section. The GFO 3rd.
The Skimmer with ATS running is really producing a lot of Thick Skim. More than in past.
Skimmer is removing the bad stuff that the Cowrie is recycling by eating ATS Algae.

Maybe some of the P is being removed by the 3rd section with the GFO.
The Nitrates are looping/recycling, but some gets removed by the Skimmer.

Does any of this theory explain why I have a sparkling clean scrubber? Yet a roaring Skimmer.

Does is explain my P dropping? N not so much?

Basically I've created a Self Cleaning Algae Scrubber.
Crazy theory eh?

I know electronics but not Chemistry, Biology, Element/Nutrient conversion, Nutrient Cycles, etc.

I posted the same theory on the Scrubber Forum and Asks for Experts to chime in.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...6#post25199526

Too good to be true. A good thing? Maybe. Or Possibly not good, if some kind of toxins are being introduced with the re-cycle.
I have to throw in the TimeLapse camera on the Scrubber. That will be some evidence. Seeing the Self Cleaning Scrubber running with a Cowrie as the Engine.

Wally.B · 09/01/2017, 12:48 AM

WEBCAM (On Algae Scrubber)

I'm going to find out what's going on in Scrubber.
1 minute Timelapse Capture setup on WebCam.

First Peek Photo at Bottom, I see two snails already working in there.

In last 10 minutes WEBCAM Captures the two snails zipping around the Scrubber Screens (Sped up time-lapse, 10 frames)

Wonder if 2nd New Cowrie is still alive and working too?

Wally.B · 09/01/2017, 04:20 PM

SEPT 1st is HERE (Promise Kept on No Additives/Coral Feeding) Learned/Achieved Much

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Matt,

I took a small precaution to Ensure "I keep my word" on "NO Additives" till Sept.

I will have a tough time with my Daughters little wooden toy hammer and the Acrlyic Sealed Box.

Now do you have faith in me?

I kept my NO (Additives/Coral Food) promise, (* 2 Months * ) and I worked on other things:

-> Built the Frag Tank
-> Killed some Frags/Got some New Frags
-> Improved Lighting
-> Improved Circulation
-> REMOVED Sand Bed
-> Scrubber Slowed down.
-> Survived 1 week Vacation away from Tank without any Catastrophie

My greatest Achievement is finally getting the correct PARS/Photoperiod in my Tank and it didn't start a Algae Bloom.

So based on the fact that Scrubber has slowed down, it appears it has the capacity to handle more waste/nutrients.

Shutting down the Skimmer and see if Scrubber Takes over is an interesting thought. (But I'm too Chicken to try that at this point)

I notice the SPS extend their Mesenterial Filaments when I used the Poly Lab Polyp Booster, which confirms that Product does work to trigger what they promise (which is a feeding response).

I am going to try this for one month:

-> Use the Polyp Booster once every other day just before feeding Corals at NIGHT.
-> Feed the Corals only one of the Foods I have.
------> Reef Nutrition OsterFeast
------> Reef Roids
------> AF Coral Food
------> Coral Frenzy

-> ON ALTERNATE DAY (No Coral Foods) I will use one of these Vitamins/Aminos/Supplements:
------> Seachem Fuel
------> Acro Power
------> AF Vitalizer

I won't be using any other the other Additives/Color Enhancers: like B-Balance, Phols Xtra, AF Build, etc

I will be watching Corals, Scrubber and Tank to see effects. Positive or Negative.

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 12:51 PM

I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE (Feeding FISH like Crazy) Till Scrubber wakes up

I've been thinking about the Scrubber. Why it shut down so drastically?

It's designed well since it worked like a horse before.

This summer has been low feedings, with Frag Tank and other Projects, two weeks away on Vacation, etc.

I know starting to Feed Corals and Fish too much can get me into trouble.

But I've been there before (to the extreme).

Cyano!!! It looks awful, but doesn't damage Corals, and it does go away eventually.

Algae is another thing that can come with too high nutrients.

-> However I have protection/Buffer. The Algae scrubber should be first to get Algae since Highest Flow and Algae Specific Lighting.
-> The auto water changes (twice a week) should help with flushing the system.

-> I also removed all floss, carbon, old ChemiPure Bags, and just left the Marine Pure Bio-Wall. Dropping ZeoBak and AF -NPpro.
------> All to enable a Organic vs Inorganic Nutrient setup.

I didn't have experience in past to notice the early warnings in DT.
This time I will notice well in advance and stop the feeding.

What can I lose. Some frags. Lost plenty doing everything right.

I may find out that things may get better.

Let's see.

reefmutt · 09/02/2017, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally.B

ALGAE SCRUBBER (Perpetual Nutrient Recycling Machine) Cowrie Snail

Matt,

I got a crazy theory about the Algae Scrubber stopping. IT Hasn't STOPPED!!
It hit me tonight, after posting on the Scrubber Form and explaining what was happening. (Scrubber Shutdown).

You mentioned this to me a while ago when I posted a comment about placing that Cowrie into my Sump a while ago. The one that shaved my SPS polyps clean.

I said I was placing him in the Algae Scrubber and he would have a feast.
You said it would be interesting if he recycled/consumed the Algae in the scrubber and created a 2nd nutrient byproduct with his waste (poo).

That Cowrie died a while ago (Nice shell, I have in on my Keyboard). But if you remember I had two, and I gave one to my brother in law since he was having GHA problems, but no SPS.
He kept it till he tore his tank apart not too long ago. I took it from him and put his Cowrie into my ATS. Not too long ago. Sometime this summer.

Now Cowrie wouldn't eat Macro Algae which is what the scrubber used to make.
100+ grams every 2 weeks. I think the first Cowrie died since Macro was all the Scrubber would make. N & P was high thus enough to produce macro.

However with my rebuild, and more water changes, N & P dropped.
Scrubber slowed down. Brother in Laws Cowrie went in around that time.
Every week, less and less Macro is what I was observing.
Couple week ago, I pulled out last Macro Clump. It wasn't even attached to Scrubber screen. Just floating.

So now the Scrubber only makes the fine GHA film on the screens.
Let's say like before 100 Grams every two weeks. That's 1.6 grams a day.
Maybe the Cowrie is consuming the screen algae (He loves the stuff, I have timelapse videos of him cleaning GHA off 1/4 of my Rockscape overnight. Way back during my GHA bloom, the big one.).
He is now trapped in my ATS section.

So he is recycling the Algae. Now comes the interesting part.
My P has dropped to around 0.05 on average, but N is hanging around 25.
A scrubber removes both N & P, but Cowrie is putting it back as another form.

The Scrubber is first section of sump. The Skimmer 2nd section. The GFO 3rd.
The Skimmer with ATS running is really producing a lot of Thick Skim. More than in past.
Skimmer is removing the bad stuff that the Cowrie is recycling by eating ATS Algae.

Maybe some of the P is being removed by the 3rd section with the GFO.
The Nitrates are looping/recycling, but some gets removed by the Skimmer.

Does any of this theory explain why I have a sparkling clean scrubber? Yet a roaring Skimmer.

Does is explain my P dropping? N not so much?

Basically I've created a Self Cleaning Algae Scrubber.
Crazy theory eh?

I know electronics but not Chemistry, Biology, Element/Nutrient conversion, Nutrient Cycles, etc.

I posted the same theory on the Scrubber Forum and Asks for Experts to chime in.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...6#post25199526

Too good to be true. A good thing? Maybe. Or Possibly not good, if some kind of toxins are being introduced with the re-cycle.
I have to throw in the TimeLapse camera on the Scrubber. That will be some evidence. Seeing the Self Cleaning Scrubber running with a Cowrie as the Engine.

I think this theory makes perfect sense..
The cowrie is too efficient though.
I think you'd have better results without the cowrie- or one with like 1/3 the efficiency- along with regular cleaning of the screens.

reefmutt · 09/02/2017, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally.B

I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE (Feeding FISH like Crazy) Till Scrubber wakes up

I've been thinking about the Scrubber. Why it shut down so drastically?

It's designed well since it worked like a horse before.

This summer has been low feedings, with Frag Tank and other Projects, two weeks away on Vacation, etc.

I know starting to Feed Corals and Fish too much can get me into trouble.

But I've been there before (to the extreme).

Cyano!!! It looks awful, but doesn't damage Corals, and it does go away eventually.

Algae is another thing that can come with too high nutrients.

-> However I have protection/Buffer. The Algae scrubber should be first to get Algae since Highest Flow and Algae Specific Lighting.
-> The auto water changes (twice a week) should help with flushing the system.

-> I also removed all floss, carbon, old ChemiPure Bags, and just left the Marine Pure Bio-Wall. Dropping ZeoBak and AF -NPpro.
------> All to enable a Organic vs Inorganic Nutrient setup.

I didn't have experience in past to notice the early warnings in DT.
This time I will notice well in advance and stop the feeding.

What can I lose. Some frags. Lost plenty doing everything right.

I may find out that things may get better.

Let's see.

With n at 25, since the scrubber shutdown, and assuming it didn't really shutdown but was grazed to extinction, I'm not so sure an increase in feeding is really the way to go.. yet..
I think you need to establish whether or not it was really the cowrie that halted the scrubber.
I think it would be prudent to change very little and remove the cowrie from the scrubber and see if the scrubber resumes.
Once n is back down to where it was when scrubber was functioning normally, and the baseline has been established, then try the big feed and see if the system keeps up.
If you do it now with the cowrie not giving the algea a change to re establish, you may run into problems... this is my theory anyways..

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefmutt

With n at 25, since the scrubber shutdown, and assuming it didn't really shutdown but was grazed to extinction, I'm not so sure an increase in feeding is really the way to go.. yet..
I think you need to establish whether or not it was really the cowrie that halted the scrubber.
I think it would be prudent to change very little and remove the cowrie from the scrubber and see if the scrubber resumes.
Once n is back down to where it was when scrubber was functioning normally, and the baseline has been established, then try the big feed and see if the system keeps up.
If you do it now with the cowrie not giving the algea a change to re establish, you may run into problems... this is my theory anyways..

Good point about N. Are you concerned about N too high for Corals, or N too high to start Algae Bloom?

I will be checking N every other day or so. P at least once a week.

I did watch the Timelapse video in the scrubber. Certainly there is activity by the Cowrie and the 2 Astrea Snails. They run up and down screen and walls.

I can't see them sterilizing the screens to the point of extinction since screen are full of porous holes, and they only clean the surface.
The screens are still primed to trigger and algae growth since I see green (in holes)

I don't want to remove the Cowrie at this point since I don't want to starve him. HE CANNOT GO in DT (since SPS eater).
But I will remove the two Astreas, they will enjoy the Glass Film in DT.

Scrubber is now at 12 hours, vs 22 before, so that may be needed.

I will feed more (but not Crazy), based on your warning.

reefmutt · 09/02/2017, 02:12 PM

It's just that your theory makes sense but if it isn't the cowrie (and snails) that stopped your algea growth, then something else did. If it wasn't the cowrie, then adding more nutrients (foods) isn't going to make the algae grow more because it is being limited somehow. Adding more food will only push n and p higher..
Removing snails is a good idea.
N of 25 isn't necessarily too high if you don't have an algea problem, heck my system sat at 50 for months, but it isn't necessarily a good thing either. ..

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefmutt

It's just that your theory makes sense but if it isn't the cowrie (and snails) that stopped your algea growth, then something else did. If it wasn't the cowrie, then adding more nutrients (foods) isn't going to make the algae grow more because it is being limited somehow. Adding more food will only push n and p higher..
Removing snails is a good idea.
N of 25 isn't necessarily too high if you don't have an algea problem, heck my system sat at 50 for months, but it isn't necessarily a good thing either. ..

Yes, I agree 100% and thanks for the thought.
I think that starting up Scrubber is most important at this point. Regardless of current N & P.

Skimmer is running nuts with Thick Smelly Output, and a lot. So nutrients flowing.
AND!! Skimmer is after Scrubber.

From Time Lapse Video I saw Astrea's humming like bee's on the Scrubber screens.
Screens maybe need to get to critical mass point to take off, and Astrea's won't let it happen.

Cowrie was moving, but more at the bottom. No sure what he is up to. Too dark.

Two Astrea's are in now in DT. They dashed for the Glass Film right way. So useful there too.

Let's see what happens to scrubber with 2/3 cleaners gone.

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 02:48 PM

GOING TO (PRIME) the SCRUBBER Screens

Now that Astrea's are gone, I will do what I initially did way back when I started up the scrubber.

I will Alage prime the cleaned screens.

It's an MODDED Upflow/Waterwater design, so screen sit in water.
The Astrea's didn't clean to top tips of the screens since they don't like to come out of water. There is some algae there.

I'll smear (With toothbrush) whatever algae is left on the screen tips, over the whole cleaner screen surface.
Maybe even rough them up fresh a bit.

That should certainly help.

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 03:02 PM

THE Alage Scrubber Screens (Look Like Never Before) Coraline Too!

I did some priming (using the bit of left over Algae at TOP TIPS)

But I haven't ever seen the screens like this Ever Before.
I haven't taken them out all summer since there wasn't any algae building up.

No need to rough them up more, the coralline that grew on them is idea.

Scrubber compartment is pretty clean too. Algae usually grows on Bottom Glass Side where the RED LEDS are.
There is the Cowrie.

Weird. I wish I had more algae to smear. Shouldn't curse myself with such thoughts.

I was thinking of using some Cheato from my other Tank, but that' the one with Possible, Ich, so no way I'm going to contaminate this tank.

However after seeing how clean the screens are, I'm doing to reduce the Output on the LED's to 60%. My power supply is variable.
And I can still run longer Photo Period hours.
That is a better way to kick start the Scrubber.

reefmutt · 09/02/2017, 03:13 PM

Something to consider: corraline algea is good (but not 100% effective) at inhibiting the growth af nuisance algea....

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Something to consider: corraline algea is good (but not 100% effective) at inhibiting the growth af nuisance algea....

Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing.

But there is plenty of surface areas without corraline. Starting pure virgin screens would be worse.

Will be interesting to see if Algae comes back, if Coralline sections Resist.

If Algae comes back, I can replace the screens. Smear the growth on new ones.
They are like $2 a sheet.

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 08:41 PM

Algae Scrubber (Tank Logs) History

I keep track of every maintenance activity, measurement, and change to tank.

I reviewed my Algae Scrubber Harvests and other related things.

I see normal Algae Harvests through May 2017.

Last Normal Harvest June 1st

May 23, N=1.0 and P=0.13

June 2nd I turned on Auto Water changes

June 12, I started Dosing AF Component 1,2,3

June 14th I noted that Algae Harvest was Lite

June 17th N=1.0 P=0.18

June 20th I put in new GFO Media

June 26th P=0.06 (Big Drop 50%)

June 29th All Coral Feeding Stopped. All Additives Stopped

No more logs of Algae Harvests from this point. Unusual break.

July 3 P=0.04 N=+5 <10

July 25th P=0.06 N=5

Aug 8th Converted to ESV Calc and Alk Dosing

Aug 12 P= 0.05 N=10 (Nitrate rising)

Sept 1st P=0.08 N >10 <25

From what I see, it appears my Consistent Water Changes, and Introduction of new GFO dropped my N & P.

My scrubber slowed down as a result (which is normal), however the Cowrie and Snails polished it clean.
** SPECIAL NOTE1: Cowrie was added to Scrubber Some time Late Spring/Early Summer.**
** SPECIAL NOTE2: Away for 2 Weeks during July/Aug for 2 Vacations (Low/No Fish Feeding)**

Since scrubber halted and can't start up properly, my N has been Rising.
P is being controlled by GFO (even though slow trickle), but P is slowly rising and will continue since Scrubber is Technically OFF.

I basically need to restart Scrubber like from scratch.
-> Removing the Snails is good step.
-> Should also remove Cowrie.
-> Smearing Screen with Algae was a good thing to PRIME Screen.
-> Photo Period on Scrubber needs to start Low and Wait for Screen to Mature/Ramp up.

Screen will ramp up similar as it originally did at the start which I captured in this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2570553&page=2

( PhotoPeriod=15 hours a day, Full Power. Could try Lower Power, More PhotoPeriod)
Trying to get answer which is better.

However Ramp up may be much slower since last time N=10, and P=.14

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 10:11 PM

Cowrie Removed (From Algae Scrubber) In Sump Refuge/WaterChangeCompartment

That's the 2nd time this Cowrie has given me a problem.
Last time he devoured the Polyps off my SPS Frags.

He has been demoted to cleaning my Water Change Compartment/Refuge section of Sump (Where he can't get out).

He has taken to the glass right away. It could use a some polishing.

There is a Nasty Hermit in there, that was removed from DT for Bad Behavoir.

Wally.B · 09/02/2017, 10:42 PM

New Piece (Roughed and Primed Screen)

Just in case that Old Coralline Covered Screen is really Strongly resisting Algae Startup.

Placed in the Open Portal so it will get Mid Scrubber Lighting.

Will be interesting if this piece starts up quicker.
Once I have some Algae Build up anywhere, I'll prime it again for the eventual All screens replacement.

Wally.B · 09/04/2017, 02:04 PM

New Stronger Lighting (Branching Cyphastrea) Colors up.

Waiting patiently for ATS to kick in. Nothing is dying, and there are hints of hope across all frags.

However one Coral caught my attention.

Got it over a year ago. Here is original Reference Photo.

Has been Encrusting like crazy since I got it. Took over the whole rock it's on.
I raised it few weeks ago, to give it more circulation, with hope it would branch more to live up to it's name.

But after the recent PAR adjustments. Today I saw it popping out more then usual in just the Blue Plus/Coral Plus T5's.

Hoping this is a positive sign, and other Frag Follow same positive direction.

Wally.B · 09/04/2017, 02:27 PM

Lesson in (Numbers Stability) Alk and Phosphates

Everyone say's stop chasing numbers, but I feel that is for the Long Term Thriving Stable Tanks.

Also it's pretty clear SPS want stability across the board.

My more frequent AutoWater changes were suppose to keep all Trace Elements at proper levels & stable. I think that is in check.

However, when I planned this last rebuild I was Highly Focused on Alk since I learned from past Frag Damage that Alk spikes are not forgiving.

I did keep Calcium balanced with Alk with the close watch on dosing.

My next goal was to bring N & P down. I certainly did that till the scrubber shut down (and then N started the recent slow rise).

I was really happy seeing N get close to 1.0, and even more happy seeing P drop from 1.0+ to 0.06, to 0.04
(Something I've never achieve before, except years ago when P was undetectable during Algae Bloom).

But that > 50% drop in P in the Low Range (Adding fresh GFO with Scrubber Online) appears to be another lesson learned.

I won't let that happen again.

Wally.B · 09/04/2017, 08:17 PM

RED ALERT (Signs of Cyano) Tiny Spot on One Frag Base

This puzzles me.

This one OLD residual Frag has had that small patch of Cyano for weeks.

I've been watching it, and it never got worse or spread.
No Cyano ever showed up on Sandbed when I had it. (It could be my Zeo Bak Bacteria drops that kept it in check).

So just to be safe I removed it, rinshed it and put back

But now looking closely at rocks I do see tiny cynao type bubbles on the rocks, in the odd spots where Frags have died (They show up at the End of the Main lighting Cycle).

That's an early warning that more could be on the way unless I get my Nutrients under control.

I REALLY NEED THAT SCRUBBER TO KICK IN. (HOLDING BACK ON ANY Extra Feeding till it does)

Temped to pull out some Cheato from other Sump and throw into Scrubber. First Dip it with Copper Treatment to kill any possible Ich from other tank.

Another Option is to head to LFS and get some Cheato which they sell. Risk is I'll bring something else to contaminate my tank.

Or just sit back and watch, with hope Scrubber wakes up on Old or new Screen.

I could reduce Lighting to control it, but that would be reversing all the progress so far. (Last resort if Cyano start getting out of hand).
What am an doing is using Coral Snow along with Extra Zeo Bak to at least beef up good bacteria.

Wally.B · 09/04/2017, 11:02 PM

Since the Cryphastrea caught my attention today, I thought I'd take a peek at it at night. With Actinic Blue LED on.

It actually looked like this to my eyes, but clearer.

Hard to Focus in such Deep Blue lighting, but it's interesting that there are more distinct color variations that you can't see as distinctly in Fuller Spectrum Light.

Kind of looks like a Strawberry Shortcake.

Wally.B · 09/06/2017, 10:44 PM

HOLDING MY Breath (Scrubber Showing signs of Restart) Cleaners gone.

I thought I'd never be happy to see Algae Growing, but I am.

Too early to have any confidence yet, but I keep watching that screen after I removed the Snails and Cowrie.

I decided to go 20 hours, but dim the light a notch.

I can see hints of Slime Algae, and even Macro Algae Threads/Nobs starting.

Interesting that Slime is growing on the Coralline areas, while greener stuff on other parts.

The virgin screen is still white, but I see particle forming.

Wally.B · 09/07/2017, 08:18 AM

** HELP me think this thru ** Power Brown (Ich Returns) Treatment OPTIONS

Just to be clear. I have two tanks. 65 Gal SPS tank has no ich. This ich is in 90 Gal Mature Very Stable, Healthy Corals LPS Tank.

The Power Brown went thru the typical stage where ich symptoms almost disappeared.

Then this morning he came out like this. He is still eating and swimming like nothing is wrong.
It looks bad in photo, but about the same as he was a couple weeks ago before things cleared up.

No other fish has ich (visibly) from what I can tell. But blue green chromis's are acting edgy. Edgy could just be me noticing what hyper fish they are. After feeding they calm down. They swim all together with Powder Brown Tang peacefully each night.

I've come to realization that I cannot catch all fish (fish trap) since the Algae Blenny is feeding independent, since he feeds off the rocks. (He doesn't come to feeding station).

If I don't remove all fish from LPS tank to treat, then ich will continue to thrive.

I am thinking a strategy, where my TOP PRIORITY is to preserve the Corals, which means I don't want to tear apart the tank. Removing 80% of Corals is possible and transfer to the Frag Tank. That would contaminate Frag Tank, but I could run it fallow for 3 months.

I also worry about whatever I do, that I not contaminate the hoses to then possibly contaminate my SPS tank. Or contaminate SPS tank (with the healthy fish) by splashing, buckets, etc. I would be careful, but there are risk with errors.

The FRAG tank is an option to transfer all corals, and treat the LPS tank with Copper Treatment.

Another option is do nothing. If Powder blue dies, then I could face challenges to remove him (Tank tear down situation which I wish to avoid). Ich would still remain in tank with host fish remaining.

I read up on Kick-Ich. Sound like a useless product that I would just waste my money on.

I really don't know what to do, but I am preparing large amounts of water.

The hospital is setup, separate from Frag tank, but doesn't have filtration to treat fish while feeding it for 2-3 weeks. Option to move Sump to Hospital, since Frag tank has mini filter, and no fish. (but I still need to catch Powder Brown for this option)

AFTER WRITING THIS, I think my best bet is try to CATCH THE POWDER BROWN TANG, and treat in Hospital on Frag Tank Sump (with Cupramine).

Since this is not an SPS tank, one idea to catch fish, is drain tank 90% into Rubbermaids, to catch all fish.
I can drain tank quickly, then refill.
But this may not work since fish hide even more (in bottom rock scape) when aware of being chased

But before I do any of above, I'll try the Hydrogen Peroxide treatment that Reefmutt recommended.

ReefWreak · 09/07/2017, 08:39 AM

Since the ich is in the tank, if the powder brown is healthy and eating, I'd just keep on feeding healthy foods and leave him alone. Pulling the otherwise healthy fish and treating him for a disease that he'll immediately just pick back up again when he gets back into the display sounds like a waste of time and resources, and will stress him out more than leaving him alone and treating him to an extra helping of selcon or other delicious foods to help him through his current health crisis.

If ich is present in the tank, it's there, and you wont get rid of it unless you keep it fallow and/or treat it directly (hyposalinity, copper, etc). Many/most of us have ich in our tanks, and the fish show it when stressed. As long as they're eating and otherwise healthy, it shouldn't be a problem seeing them through this recent bout.

I think the bigger concern than ich itself if its already in your display and you aren't likely to get rid of it are secondary bacterial infections from fishes scratching on the rocks due to ich causing itching.

And while this is certainly not going to get rid of the ich, do you have a cleaner shrimp that might help the fishes through this stage of the disease? It won't cure it, but it may provide temporary relief when the fishes need it?

08/31/2017, 11:33 PM	#328
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	ALGAE SCRUBBER (Perpetual Nutrient Recycling Machine) Cowrie Snail Matt, I got a crazy theory about the Algae Scrubber stopping. IT Hasn't STOPPED!! It hit me tonight, after posting on the Scrubber Form and explaining what was happening. (Scrubber Shutdown). You mentioned this to me a while ago when I posted a comment about placing that Cowrie into my Sump a while ago. The one that shaved my SPS polyps clean. I said I was placing him in the Algae Scrubber and he would have a feast. You said it would be interesting if he recycled/consumed the Algae in the scrubber and created a 2nd nutrient byproduct with his waste (poo). That Cowrie died a while ago (Nice shell, I have in on my Keyboard). But if you remember I had two, and I gave one to my brother in law since he was having GHA problems, but no SPS. He kept it till he tore his tank apart not too long ago. I took it from him and put his Cowrie into my ATS. Not too long ago. Sometime this summer. Now Cowrie wouldn't eat Macro Algae which is what the scrubber used to make. 100+ grams every 2 weeks. I think the first Cowrie died since Macro was all the Scrubber would make. N & P was high thus enough to produce macro. However with my rebuild, and more water changes, N & P dropped. Scrubber slowed down. Brother in Laws Cowrie went in around that time. Every week, less and less Macro is what I was observing. Couple week ago, I pulled out last Macro Clump. It wasn't even attached to Scrubber screen. Just floating. So now the Scrubber only makes the fine GHA film on the screens. Let's say like before 100 Grams every two weeks. That's 1.6 grams a day. Maybe the Cowrie is consuming the screen algae (He loves the stuff, I have timelapse videos of him cleaning GHA off 1/4 of my Rockscape overnight. Way back during my GHA bloom, the big one.). He is now trapped in my ATS section. So he is recycling the Algae. Now comes the interesting part. My P has dropped to around 0.05 on average, but N is hanging around 25. A scrubber removes both N & P, but Cowrie is putting it back as another form. The Scrubber is first section of sump. The Skimmer 2nd section. The GFO 3rd. The Skimmer with ATS running is really producing a lot of Thick Skim. More than in past. Skimmer is removing the bad stuff that the Cowrie is recycling by eating ATS Algae. Maybe some of the P is being removed by the 3rd section with the GFO. The Nitrates are looping/recycling, but some gets removed by the Skimmer. Does any of this theory explain why I have a sparkling clean scrubber? Yet a roaring Skimmer. Does is explain my P dropping? N not so much? Basically I've created a Self Cleaning Algae Scrubber. Crazy theory eh? I know electronics but not Chemistry, Biology, Element/Nutrient conversion, Nutrient Cycles, etc. I posted the same theory on the Scrubber Forum and Asks for Experts to chime in. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...6#post25199526 Too good to be true. A good thing? Maybe. Or Possibly not good, if some kind of toxins are being introduced with the re-cycle. I have to throw in the TimeLapse camera on the Scrubber. That will be some evidence. Seeing the Self Cleaning Scrubber running with a Cowrie as the Engine. Last edited by Wally.B; 08/31/2017 at 11:48 PM.

09/01/2017, 12:48 AM	#329
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	WEBCAM (On Algae Scrubber) I'm going to find out what's going on in Scrubber. 1 minute Timelapse Capture setup on WebCam. First Peek Photo at Bottom, I see two snails already working in there. In last 10 minutes WEBCAM Captures the two snails zipping around the Scrubber Screens (Sped up time-lapse, 10 frames) Wonder if 2nd New Cowrie is still alive and working too? Last edited by Wally.B; 09/01/2017 at 12:54 AM.

09/02/2017, 12:51 PM	#331
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE (Feeding FISH like Crazy) Till Scrubber wakes up I've been thinking about the Scrubber. Why it shut down so drastically? It's designed well since it worked like a horse before. This summer has been low feedings, with Frag Tank and other Projects, two weeks away on Vacation, etc. I know starting to Feed Corals and Fish too much can get me into trouble. But I've been there before (to the extreme). Cyano!!! It looks awful, but doesn't damage Corals, and it does go away eventually. Algae is another thing that can come with too high nutrients. -> However I have protection/Buffer. The Algae scrubber should be first to get Algae since Highest Flow and Algae Specific Lighting. -> The auto water changes (twice a week) should help with flushing the system. -> I also removed all floss, carbon, old ChemiPure Bags, and just left the Marine Pure Bio-Wall. Dropping ZeoBak and AF -NPpro. ------> All to enable a Organic vs Inorganic Nutrient setup. I didn't have experience in past to notice the early warnings in DT. This time I will notice well in advance and stop the feeding. What can I lose. Some frags. Lost plenty doing everything right. I may find out that things may get better. Let's see. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/02/2017 at 12:59 PM.

09/02/2017, 02:12 PM	#335
reefmutt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mtl. Canada Posts: 7,824	It's just that your theory makes sense but if it isn't the cowrie (and snails) that stopped your algea growth, then something else did. If it wasn't the cowrie, then adding more nutrients (foods) isn't going to make the algae grow more because it is being limited somehow. Adding more food will only push n and p higher.. Removing snails is a good idea. N of 25 isn't necessarily too high if you don't have an algea problem, heck my system sat at 50 for months, but it isn't necessarily a good thing either. .. __________________ Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer

09/02/2017, 03:02 PM	#338
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	THE Alage Scrubber Screens (Look Like Never Before) Coraline Too! I did some priming (using the bit of left over Algae at TOP TIPS) But I haven't ever seen the screens like this Ever Before. I haven't taken them out all summer since there wasn't any algae building up. No need to rough them up more, the coralline that grew on them is idea. Scrubber compartment is pretty clean too. Algae usually grows on Bottom Glass Side where the RED LEDS are. There is the Cowrie. Weird. I wish I had more algae to smear. Shouldn't curse myself with such thoughts. I was thinking of using some Cheato from my other Tank, but that' the one with Possible, Ich, so no way I'm going to contaminate this tank. However after seeing how clean the screens are, I'm doing to reduce the Output on the LED's to 60%. My power supply is variable. And I can still run longer Photo Period hours. That is a better way to kick start the Scrubber. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/02/2017 at 03:14 PM.

08/31/2017, 09:49 PM	#327
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	Potassium test shows a nice 400 ppm. No point testing Iodine, I trust the Water Changes with Good Salt are doing the job. If K was even slightly off I would. Let's see what the ATS photo period change does.

09/02/2017, 02:48 PM	#337
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	GOING TO (PRIME) the SCRUBBER Screens Now that Astrea's are gone, I will do what I initially did way back when I started up the scrubber. I will Alage prime the cleaned screens. It's an MODDED Upflow/Waterwater design, so screen sit in water. The Astrea's didn't clean to top tips of the screens since they don't like to come out of water. There is some algae there. I'll smear (With toothbrush) whatever algae is left on the screen tips, over the whole cleaner screen surface. Maybe even rough them up fresh a bit. That should certainly help.

09/02/2017, 03:13 PM	#339
reefmutt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mtl. Canada Posts: 7,824	Something to consider: corraline algea is good (but not 100% effective) at inhibiting the growth af nuisance algea.... __________________ Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer

09/02/2017, 08:41 PM	#341
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	Algae Scrubber (Tank Logs) History I keep track of every maintenance activity, measurement, and change to tank. I reviewed my Algae Scrubber Harvests and other related things. I see normal Algae Harvests through May 2017. Last Normal Harvest June 1st May 23, N=1.0 and P=0.13 June 2nd I turned on Auto Water changes June 12, I started Dosing AF Component 1,2,3 June 14th I noted that Algae Harvest was Lite June 17th N=1.0 P=0.18 June 20th I put in new GFO Media June 26th P=0.06 (Big Drop 50%) June 29th All Coral Feeding Stopped. All Additives Stopped No more logs of Algae Harvests from this point. Unusual break. July 3 P=0.04 N=+5 <10 July 25th P=0.06 N=5 Aug 8th Converted to ESV Calc and Alk Dosing Aug 12 P= 0.05 N=10 (Nitrate rising) Sept 1st P=0.08 N >10 <25 From what I see, it appears my Consistent Water Changes, and Introduction of new GFO dropped my N & P. My scrubber slowed down as a result (which is normal), however the Cowrie and Snails polished it clean. SPECIAL NOTE1: Cowrie was added to Scrubber Some time Late Spring/Early Summer. SPECIAL NOTE2: Away for 2 Weeks during July/Aug for 2 Vacations (Low/No Fish Feeding) Since scrubber halted and can't start up properly, my N has been Rising. P is being controlled by GFO (even though slow trickle), but P is slowly rising and will continue since Scrubber is Technically OFF. I basically need to restart Scrubber like from scratch. -> Removing the Snails is good step. -> Should also remove Cowrie. -> Smearing Screen with Algae was a good thing to PRIME Screen. -> Photo Period on Scrubber needs to start Low and Wait for Screen to Mature/Ramp up. Screen will ramp up similar as it originally did at the start which I captured in this thread. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2570553&page=2 ( PhotoPeriod=15 hours a day, Full Power. Could try Lower Power, More PhotoPeriod) Trying to get answer which is better. However Ramp up may be much slower since last time N=10, and P=.14 Last edited by Wally.B; 09/02/2017 at 09:51 PM.

09/02/2017, 10:11 PM	#342
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	Cowrie Removed (From Algae Scrubber) In Sump Refuge/WaterChangeCompartment That's the 2nd time this Cowrie has given me a problem. Last time he devoured the Polyps off my SPS Frags. He has been demoted to cleaning my Water Change Compartment/Refuge section of Sump (Where he can't get out). He has taken to the glass right away. It could use a some polishing. There is a Nasty Hermit in there, that was removed from DT for Bad Behavoir. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/02/2017 at 10:16 PM.

09/02/2017, 10:42 PM	#343
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	New Piece (Roughed and Primed Screen) Just in case that Old Coralline Covered Screen is really Strongly resisting Algae Startup. Placed in the Open Portal so it will get Mid Scrubber Lighting. Will be interesting if this piece starts up quicker. Once I have some Algae Build up anywhere, I'll prime it again for the eventual All screens replacement.

09/04/2017, 02:04 PM	#344
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	New Stronger Lighting (Branching Cyphastrea) Colors up. Waiting patiently for ATS to kick in. Nothing is dying, and there are hints of hope across all frags. However one Coral caught my attention. Got it over a year ago. Here is original Reference Photo. Has been Encrusting like crazy since I got it. Took over the whole rock it's on. I raised it few weeks ago, to give it more circulation, with hope it would branch more to live up to it's name. But after the recent PAR adjustments. Today I saw it popping out more then usual in just the Blue Plus/Coral Plus T5's. Hoping this is a positive sign, and other Frag Follow same positive direction. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/04/2017 at 10:15 PM.

09/04/2017, 02:27 PM	#345
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	Lesson in (Numbers Stability) Alk and Phosphates Everyone say's stop chasing numbers, but I feel that is for the Long Term Thriving Stable Tanks. Also it's pretty clear SPS want stability across the board. My more frequent AutoWater changes were suppose to keep all Trace Elements at proper levels & stable. I think that is in check. However, when I planned this last rebuild I was Highly Focused on Alk since I learned from past Frag Damage that Alk spikes are not forgiving. I did keep Calcium balanced with Alk with the close watch on dosing. My next goal was to bring N & P down. I certainly did that till the scrubber shut down (and then N started the recent slow rise). I was really happy seeing N get close to 1.0, and even more happy seeing P drop from 1.0+ to 0.06, to 0.04 (Something I've never achieve before, except years ago when P was undetectable during Algae Bloom). But that > 50% drop in P in the Low Range (Adding fresh GFO with Scrubber Online) appears to be another lesson learned. I won't let that happen again.

09/04/2017, 08:17 PM	#346
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	RED ALERT (Signs of Cyano) Tiny Spot on One Frag Base This puzzles me. This one OLD residual Frag has had that small patch of Cyano for weeks. I've been watching it, and it never got worse or spread. No Cyano ever showed up on Sandbed when I had it. (It could be my Zeo Bak Bacteria drops that kept it in check). So just to be safe I removed it, rinshed it and put back But now looking closely at rocks I do see tiny cynao type bubbles on the rocks, in the odd spots where Frags have died (They show up at the End of the Main lighting Cycle). That's an early warning that more could be on the way unless I get my Nutrients under control. I REALLY NEED THAT SCRUBBER TO KICK IN. (HOLDING BACK ON ANY Extra Feeding till it does) Temped to pull out some Cheato from other Sump and throw into Scrubber. First Dip it with Copper Treatment to kill any possible Ich from other tank. Another Option is to head to LFS and get some Cheato which they sell. Risk is I'll bring something else to contaminate my tank. Or just sit back and watch, with hope Scrubber wakes up on Old or new Screen. I could reduce Lighting to control it, but that would be reversing all the progress so far. (Last resort if Cyano start getting out of hand). What am an doing is using Coral Snow along with Extra Zeo Bak to at least beef up good bacteria. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/04/2017 at 08:46 PM.

09/04/2017, 11:02 PM	#347
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	Since the Cryphastrea caught my attention today, I thought I'd take a peek at it at night. With Actinic Blue LED on. It actually looked like this to my eyes, but clearer. Hard to Focus in such Deep Blue lighting, but it's interesting that there are more distinct color variations that you can't see as distinctly in Fuller Spectrum Light. Kind of looks like a Strawberry Shortcake.

09/06/2017, 10:44 PM	#348
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	HOLDING MY Breath (Scrubber Showing signs of Restart) Cleaners gone. I thought I'd never be happy to see Algae Growing, but I am. Too early to have any confidence yet, but I keep watching that screen after I removed the Snails and Cowrie. I decided to go 20 hours, but dim the light a notch. I can see hints of Slime Algae, and even Macro Algae Threads/Nobs starting. Interesting that Slime is growing on the Coralline areas, while greener stuff on other parts. The virgin screen is still white, but I see particle forming. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/06/2017 at 11:09 PM.

09/07/2017, 08:18 AM	#349
Wally.B Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Toronto GTA,Canada Posts: 1,763	HELP me think this thru Power Brown (Ich Returns) Treatment OPTIONS Just to be clear. I have two tanks. 65 Gal SPS tank has no ich. This ich is in 90 Gal Mature Very Stable, Healthy Corals LPS Tank. The Power Brown went thru the typical stage where ich symptoms almost disappeared. Then this morning he came out like this. He is still eating and swimming like nothing is wrong. It looks bad in photo, but about the same as he was a couple weeks ago before things cleared up. No other fish has ich (visibly) from what I can tell. But blue green chromis's are acting edgy. Edgy could just be me noticing what hyper fish they are. After feeding they calm down. They swim all together with Powder Brown Tang peacefully each night. I've come to realization that I cannot catch all fish (fish trap) since the Algae Blenny is feeding independent, since he feeds off the rocks. (He doesn't come to feeding station). If I don't remove all fish from LPS tank to treat, then ich will continue to thrive. I am thinking a strategy, where my TOP PRIORITY is to preserve the Corals, which means I don't want to tear apart the tank. Removing 80% of Corals is possible and transfer to the Frag Tank. That would contaminate Frag Tank, but I could run it fallow for 3 months. I also worry about whatever I do, that I not contaminate the hoses to then possibly contaminate my SPS tank. Or contaminate SPS tank (with the healthy fish) by splashing, buckets, etc. I would be careful, but there are risk with errors. The FRAG tank is an option to transfer all corals, and treat the LPS tank with Copper Treatment. Another option is do nothing. If Powder blue dies, then I could face challenges to remove him (Tank tear down situation which I wish to avoid). Ich would still remain in tank with host fish remaining. I read up on Kick-Ich. Sound like a useless product that I would just waste my money on. I really don't know what to do, but I am preparing large amounts of water. The hospital is setup, separate from Frag tank, but doesn't have filtration to treat fish while feeding it for 2-3 weeks. Option to move Sump to Hospital, since Frag tank has mini filter, and no fish. (but I still need to catch Powder Brown for this option) AFTER WRITING THIS, I think my best bet is try to CATCH THE POWDER BROWN TANG, and treat in Hospital on Frag Tank Sump (with Cupramine). Since this is not an SPS tank, one idea to catch fish, is drain tank 90% into Rubbermaids, to catch all fish. I can drain tank quickly, then refill. But this may not work since fish hide even more (in bottom rock scape) when aware of being chased But before I do any of above, I'll try the Hydrogen Peroxide treatment that Reefmutt recommended. Last edited by Wally.B; 09/07/2017 at 08:38 AM.

09/07/2017, 08:39 AM	#350
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	Since the ich is in the tank, if the powder brown is healthy and eating, I'd just keep on feeding healthy foods and leave him alone. Pulling the otherwise healthy fish and treating him for a disease that he'll immediately just pick back up again when he gets back into the display sounds like a waste of time and resources, and will stress him out more than leaving him alone and treating him to an extra helping of selcon or other delicious foods to help him through his current health crisis. If ich is present in the tank, it's there, and you wont get rid of it unless you keep it fallow and/or treat it directly (hyposalinity, copper, etc). Many/most of us have ich in our tanks, and the fish show it when stressed. As long as they're eating and otherwise healthy, it shouldn't be a problem seeing them through this recent bout. I think the bigger concern than ich itself if its already in your display and you aren't likely to get rid of it are secondary bacterial infections from fishes scratching on the rocks due to ich causing itching. And while this is certainly not going to get rid of the ich, do you have a cleaner shrimp that might help the fishes through this stage of the disease? It won't cure it, but it may provide temporary relief when the fishes need it?