Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

Where were the little suckers, when I was ripping caulerpa out by the bucketful?

I've done some reading on the Caulerpa Slug. Apparently predators avoid them because exude yucky stuff and they are poisonous to eat. Also they aren't nudibranchs, they are sea slugs, which I thought were just a subgroup of nudibranchs. They're not. They have been looked at by scientists as a possible biocontrol of caulerpa in the Mediterranean.

I can see how some aquarists might love having them to control caulerpa. Ironically the best way to obtain some would be to buy more caulerpa! Or find some unlucky shmuck like me to sell them some. Honestly, I don't think I'd be interested in bothering.

On another subject, I think I've come around to figuring out that my supposed diatom bloom is actually dinoflagellates. Sure looks like it. I did a little reading and it appears excess nitrogenous compounds are a likely contributor. My ammonia dosing probably did that. The new, bulb, which was brighter than the previous one seemed to exacerbate the problem. Low pH is a contributor as well. With CO2 injection, I likely have that. There is also a large amount of conflicting information.

I've taken a few basic measures to get rid of it: I put the old bulb back in, while I wait for the new 7500K one. With dimmer light, I'm already seeing a reduction. I also moved some ulva back into the tank to help suck up nutrients. I added some baking soda to raise the pH. Also I've manually removed large quantities of it with a net.

I'll continue to study up on it. And of course, I'm open to suggests.

[sam.basye]

With Dino's, I'm 85% sure that they are primarily affected by light, not as much nutrients/ammonia. Especially when you can do a 3 to 4 day blackout and they disappear. If I have the lights on too long, like full sunset to sunrise, I'd get bad Dino's, but my lighting from 2pm to 10pm seems to be the sweet spot for my tank to not get any.. obviously intensity will also factor in, which is probably why the new bulb is giving you them.

How long is your lighting cycle?

One thing I've noticed is the amount of Ill information of hobbiests regarding Dinoflangelates.. the majority think because it looks similar to Cyano, that's what it is, so a lot of people misidentify it and don't understand why it won't go away. That's something I noticed a while back when I first got Dino's and a plethora of morons insisted I had Cyano..

[Michael Hoaster]

OK, the light factor seems to be pretty important. My limited experience seems to confirm it. Thanks for sharing, Sam! I also read the 3-4 day blackout was very helpful, so I'll probably give that a try as well.

My lights are on 14 hours a day.

"a plethora of morons" It just rolls off the tongue. Love it!

I think the new light, plus my using ammonia like a gas pedal are the key factors that led to this.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by sam.basye

...and a plethora of morons...

LMAO. That's why I don't post unless I have some sort of clue...it's a wonder my post count isn't zero!

BTW, it wasn't me

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm starting a three day blackout today, to see if I can rid myself of dinos. My gorgonian has been closed up more lately, due to being coated with them. Not cool! I've read that they are also toxic to animals that eat them, and can kill snails. I have noticed a reduction in mini strombus snails lately, and my single molly has been off for weeks.

It's so great to have an algae phase again. What else can go wrong!!!!

I'll be turning the light on for an hour or so to hunt slugs and nems. I AM RELENTLESS. I WILL NOT FAIL. It's going to work. I drink a little hot tea and crank up the obsessive-compulsive behavior! I am now quite familiar with every nook and cranny of my tank…

[Chasmodes]

Good luck getting rid of the dinos. Sounds like a good plan. I guess your observation time is limited to your one hour too, unless you observe with a red-light and look for the creatures of the night. Do you ever do that?

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I'll be turning the light on for an hour or so to hunt slugs and nems. I AM RELENTLESS. I WILL NOT FAIL. It's going to work. I drink a little hot tea and crank up the obsessive-compulsive behavior! I am now quite familiar with every nook and cranny of my tank…

I laughed when I read this, made me thing of you in a super hero costume heading out to fight crime! I guess I watch TV too much. Are you noticing the numbers dropping every day? If the numbers keep dropping, then that is good incentive to keep up the good work. Hang in there!

[Michael Hoaster]

I got 52 slugs out today, and five nems. I turned the lights back out afterwards. Strange that the slug number went up. I wonder how big they have to get to lay eggs. Maybe just more were visible today. I may be on the brink of eradicating the nems.

Super hero? That is pretty funny! Substitute the ghost in the ghostbuster logo with a nem and slug, and we're good to go! But perhaps Angel of Death is more fitting. You know why? Because I AM RELENTLESS. I WILL NOT FAIL.

The nem numbers are dropping for sure. I am X-ing even the tiniest, most insignificant ones. IT'S GOING TO WORK.

I think the dino situation shouldn't be too hard to fix (said every poor, miserable aquarist in this same situation before me). I'll keep studying up on them. I like to sift through all the conflicting information and look for a consensus. I also look for articles written by known authorities in the hobby.

Thanks Kevin. I will hang in there. My tank is still thriving and growing. You'd think it was in dire straits by my recent posts! I just want to address these problems and resolve them, before the next phase of new additions. Can't wait!

[McPuff]

Don't bother to change the bulb back to the old one. Simply reduce the daylight duration. The new bulb is stronger than the old so your system just have to re-acclimate. Reduce by 1-2 hours per day and then after two weeks add an hour per week. You'll be golden.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks for the advice McPuff. Reducing the photoperiod is an option I'm considering.

The problem is the new bulb is too yellow-even for me. I've got a 7500K bulb on the way, I'm hoping will be just the ticket. Yes, my tank's inhabitants are having to readjust to the dimmer light, but the brighter one was even more of an adjustment. It bleached out my plants and may have been the dino-trigger. Going back to the slightly dimmer bulb seemed to help with the dino-situation. Plus it has the same lumen output as the incoming bulb. If the dinos come back after the blackout and the other measures, I may reduce the photoperiod. I'll keep it in my back pocket.

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm still reading up on dinoflagellates. I think probably the main reason for all the conflicting information (besides the plethora of morons), is that there are more than one kind of dino out there. Isn't that fun?

So, where one guy fixes it with a blackout, another has no success with it. Raising pH works for one, fails for another, and so on. I'm trying several things and will evaluate, after the blackout. If I can narrow down what works and what doesn't, I should be good. I'm hoping my natural methods of system management will help as well.

[sam.basye]

What made you determine it wasn't diatoms?

[BonesCJ]

If i remember correctly (I think its in my build thread) I took care of Dino's with a complete blackout (wrapped the tank in trash bags) and dosed hydrogen peroxide.

[BonesCJ]

From my build on 7/18

"Update:

Very very good progress, I treated the tank with 7 days of hydrogen peroxide (10 ml's a day) for 7 days, the last three days the tank in complete blackout(wrapped in trash bags). A couple days after that I could see brown growing again on the bottom but no stringy snot bubbles, left for a week vacation and when I came back the sand was clean the macros where growing and all sorts of other growth was occurring! "

[taricha]

Dinos!? I was wondering if that would come up, based on your last few posts about diatoms.
Your tank is so different, that I don't know if we can 100% trust the well-worn paths of others. The daily cycle you described + the grazer die-off makes my Dino sense go tingly. What's different is that usually a Dino onset is preceded by a drop or consistently low values of P (or N) and a reduction in green algaes.
3 common Dino strains:
Ostreopsis, most toxic, but also easiest to eradicate by targeting its nightly trip into the water column.
Amphidinium, low/non toxic, but stays firmly in/under the sand, making it the hardest to eradicate.
Prorocentrum, sorta between the two.
A few other oddballs show up rarely.
Get a microscope. You may end up chasing your tail for a long time if you don't actually have a firm ID. I've seen a few types of diatoms, cyano, etc do a really good impression of dinos.
Got pics?
What's your Phosphate and nitrate levels?
What are you dosing? Carbon, trace elements, additives of any sort?

If it is in fact dinos, then a natural approach with consistent healthy nutrient inputs to favor other competitor algae and grazers is the most reliable path to stability.

Oxidizer, algaecides, antibiotics, etc all get a down vote from me because they reduce biodiversity, which is the opposite of the direction you want to push a system. Blackouts just kick the can down the road, which can be ok until,a plan of attack is developed.

TLDR: for most people with dinos, dosing inorganic P (and N) while adding strong UV (1 watt per 2 gallons) is enough to turn the tide.

[taricha]

Also, check this paper on your caulerpa slugs. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...03.2013.818722
It's got good stuff.

Only eat caulerpa, predators highly unlikely, and they can go into "sleep mode" for a month or so?!

"Evolution in this order has been closely linked to their specialized suctorial herbivorous habits. All the shelled species (about 20% of the described species) feed exclusively on green algae of the genus Caulerpa..."

"Moreover, predation is not a controlling factor for [Oxynoe] olivacea populations, as the production of the noxious metabolites oxytoxin-1 and oxytoxin-2 makes this species unpalatable"

"Interestingly, O. olivacea showed a cryptic behaviour in March, hiding below the boulders and forming sleeping groups of two or three animals very close to each other. During field observations, the animals remain motionless side by side and do not respond to disturbances. This behaviour has already been described in O. olivacea as well as in Lobiger serradifalci as “sleeping behaviour”"

[Chasmodes]

How are your slug and nem removal adventures doing Michael?

Interesting info taricha, thanks for posting! Hope everyone here is having a wonderful holiday season!

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by taricha

Dinos!? I was wondering if that would come up, based on your last few posts about diatoms.
Your tank is so different, that I don't know if we can 100% trust the well-worn paths of others. The daily cycle you described + the grazer die-off makes my Dino sense go tingly. What's different is that usually a Dino onset is preceded by a drop or consistently low values of P (or N) and a reduction in green algaes.
3 common Dino strains:
Ostreopsis, most toxic, but also easiest to eradicate by targeting its nightly trip into the water column.
Amphidinium, low/non toxic, but stays firmly in/under the sand, making it the hardest to eradicate.
Prorocentrum, sorta between the two.
A few other oddballs show up rarely.
Get a microscope. You may end up chasing your tail for a long time if you don't actually have a firm ID. I've seen a few types of diatoms, cyano, etc do a really good impression of dinos.
Got pics?
What's your Phosphate and nitrate levels?

What are you dosing? Carbon, trace elements, additives of any sort?

If it is in fact dinos, then a natural approach with consistent healthy nutrient inputs to favor other competitor algae and grazers is the most reliable path to stability.

Oxidizer, algaecides, antibiotics, etc all get a down vote from me because they reduce biodiversity, which is the opposite of the direction you want to push a system. Blackouts just kick the can down the road, which can be ok until,a plan of attack is developed.



TLDR: for most people with dinos, dosing inorganic P (and N) while adding strong UV (1 watt per 2 gallons) is enough to turn the tide.

Outstanding information. It is refreshing to hear aquaculture advice from a scientific perspective. Of course I like natural systems. The coral holibiont loosely discribes the complexity of our captive eco-systems, that have operated in harmony for 5 billion years. I prefer to keep it simple and let “Mother Nature” steer the ship.

[Michael Hoaster]

Happy Holidays, Everyone!

I decided to step back from the thread for a little while (six whole days!). I had a couple of incidents that really tested me, and I just felt like it was time for me to walk the walk - not talk the talk. And honestly, I am pretty tired of reporting more screw-ups. But I guess I should go ahead put it out there.

I had a perfect storm of my own actions and negligence, combining with something out of my control, that very nearly killed all life in my tank. I was doing a 3 day black out, to combat dinos. I had turned off my pumps to facilitate killing nems and catching slugs. And, I had an overnight power failure, that I failed to notice - until it was almost too late. All four barnacle blennies died and the large male sailfin blenny died. Worms, pods, serpent stars, the cucumber, and the fighting conch were all very highly stressed but survived. Once I realized what had happened, I got additional aeration going, and everything eventually seemed to recover, except the fish. Remarkably, the royal gramma, two sailfin blennies, and the the single molly survived.

As if that wasn't enough drama, later, the same day, my metal halide bulb exploded. My wife and I were both in the room, when it happened. It sounded similar to a gunshot. Kinda scary! If my hood had been open, like it had been a lot lately, we might have been injured. With it closed, the glass shards fell harmlessly into the tank. I was able to remove the shards pretty easily.

Needless to say, it was not a good day. But of course, it could have been worse, and I will learn from it. I'm getting kinda tired of all my lessons lately!

I flipped my light fixture around, so that the bulb socket faces the back of the tank, rather than the front. I also added a sheet metal shield on the front, for extra protection. For power failures, I have a battery back up and a battery powered bubbler. Normally, power failures aren't too big a deal in my heavily planted tank. It was just the above-mentioned combination that made it so much worse.

So, deep breath!

I've just about wiped out the caulerpa slugs. I caught only eight yesterday. The nem war rages on, but I'm determined to win, and there are only tiny ones left now-I hope! The dinoflagellates have subsided, but aren't gone yet. I'm still playing around with different eradication methods. It's a tricky balancing act, trying to kill one algae, while favoring others. I'm hoping that removing the slugs will allow the caulerpa to grow back prolifically, thus denying them of needed nutrients.

Thanks to all who have posted suggestions! Great info! Sam, I concluded it was dinos mostly by the photos. They showed the characteristic bubbles that they form. I haven't seen that with diatoms. Also, some of the causes listed lined up with some of the things I was doing, like higher lighting, increased nitrogen input, lower pH and reduced water flow.

I, for one, look forward to a New Year! Peace!

[sam.basye]

Damn, Michael...

I hope next year goes better than this year for your tank!

I will say, the silence has been rejuvenating.

Now that you pretty much have no fish, you have a blank slate to start new with. Does this change your fish stocking ideas??
I can continue to pester you about adding more fish. Haha

Which bulb blew? Yellow or new blueish one? Bet that was scary!

I look forward to a new year of biotopiness!

[Chasmodes]

Holy crap man! I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that. You and your tank will bounce back. It seems like things are in decent shape despite the set backs.

Happy holidays to you too, and also hope you have a better 2018!

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Sam. Me too! 2017 was a year of my highest highs and lowest lows. I'll gladly take a much less volatile 2018.

I seriously contemplated not posting for months. There are guys that do that. I guess I'm just not one of them.

I'm not sure yet how my fish stocking plans will change. As much as I loved the barnacle blennies, I'll probably not replace them. They're not Caribbean and I couldn't face losing any more of them. I have set up two quarantine tanks, so I can get royal grammas and chalk bass simultaneously. I've spoken with a Florida Keys collector, and we'll see what he can find. I expect to hear from him early next month. I'm still bouncing the idea around of a cherub angel harem. My biggest concern is their aggression, so if I got them, I would wait until all the basslets are very well established. Another fish I'd love to get, but whose reputation for aggressiveness is well documented, is the sergeant major. They get big and mean, but a school of small juveniles would be super cool, swimming through the grasses. If I knew I could catch them, once they get too mean, I would go for it, but I'm not sure it would be worth the risk.

The older, bluish bulb blew. It scared the bajeezus out of me. And the thought of injuring my wife…that was rough.

So, the newer, yellowish one is back in service. It is noticeably brighter - 33,000 v 32,000 lumens. This time around, it doesn't look so yellow. One side of the element looks more yellow than the other. Maybe that's the difference. I still have a 7500K bulb on the way, but it has been delayed. It is 32,000 lumens. I think the seagrasses like the brighter light, and the macros like the dimmer one. We'll see how the new one looks when it gets here, sometime next month. I'm sure I'll get suggestions to switch to LED lighting. I don't think I could justify the price of any that would be bright enough to work in my 30 inch deep tank. I still prefer the natural look of a single point light source. I'll keep an open mind, and an eye on the sales! Suggestions welcome.

I look forward to 2018! I'm hoping to surpass the peak my tank achieved earlier this year. I've just about got all the pieces of the ecosystem puzzle in place…

[Michael Hoaster]

Holy crap indeed, Kevin! Talk about a beat-down! I feel like I've been through a meat grinder. Now I'm a brand-new sausage!

I remind myself that I've seen much worse. It wasn't a total tank wipe out. Can you imagine that? I came pretty close, but I held it together enough to prevent that. Despite the utter disappointment in myself, I am hugely relieved I kept a clear head in a seriously messed up situation, and saved my cast of thousands detrivore crew, and a few of the fish.

2018 is going to be great!

[Michael Hoaster]

Taricha, thank you so much for your excellent insights on dinoflagellates.

I especially like this one: "If it is in fact dinos, then a natural approach with consistent healthy nutrient inputs to favor other competitor algae and grazers is the most reliable path to stability."

That is exactly what I'd like to do.

It does not appear to be the highly toxic version. My snails are still eating it after several weeks and I still have snails. The molly that was eating it looks a bit off, but I don't know if it was the dinos or something else. Early in the day there's not much to see. Later, they start producing more and more oxygen bubbles and get carried to the surface. This would be a good time to export via netting, as much as I can. Now that I've just about eradicated my caulerpa slugs, my caulerpa is mounting a comeback. It should be a key competitor for nutrients.

I think what may have caused the outbreak was INconsistent nutrient inputs, combined with a major light intensity increase. I had bumped up the CO2 bubble rate, and I increased ammonia dosing, to see if I could stimulate the seagrasses. Changing one factor at a time would have been better. Changing three likely caused the tipping point. I still have the brighter bulb temporarily, but I have shortened the photoperiod. I am resuming previous dosing levels to return to consistent inputs.

Any additional suggestions would be appreciated.

I purchased some new charcoal, but have not implemented it yet. I have quite a few filter feeders and I'm afraid using charcoal would starve them. If that is the case, why not just let THEM soak up dissolved organics instead. I could get some mollies back in there to increase grazing pressure.

I like the idea of consistent nutrient input to assist Mother Nature in returning to balance. I've got a huge diversity of players already in place. I'll give them time to do their thing.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I seriously contemplated not posting for months.

No need to do that. Most of us are here to help and support you, or sympathize when needed.

[sam.basye]

Chasmodes is right. Most of us are here to help and support you, and some of us like to kick you while you’re down
I want to see more fish, more grass (no, not you Colorado people’s kind), and for you to recreate that bulb explosion, except get it on film this time!


Would you consider a Caribbean pistol shrimp now? Or porcelain crabs (gray, rock, Florida variant)?
You’ve always got some elaborate plan going on I can’t keep up with. Lol

LED suggestion:

Get a cheap 16” Chinese black box and angle it slightly like the halide. Or get two and flat mount one on the left end and angle one at the center. That will give you the same graduated look and the ability to perfect the exact color spectrum you’re looking for. Plus the added benefit of varying total light intensity to the tanks needs, built in moonlights, and a programmable photoperiod. If you didn’t like it, you could easily resell them for what you pay on Craigslist.
It’s time you venture over to the LED side! Lol


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