Still searching for why fish are dying

[anthonys51]

Think uncle is on to something


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[JDT1234]

Originally Posted by sde1500

I'd say your old fish did contract it. Just didn't die and are now living with it. Or immune to it. Any particular signs the new fish are showing after death?

Also dosing seems unnecessary for you tank. I'd suggest getting another test kit to confirm your numbers. And follow the directions.

All the fish that died seemed healthy. Eating, out in the open interacting with tank mates. No signs of out right aggression from older fish in tank.

I've experienced tangs fighting to the death and a couple clowns. I am not including those in this topic because I know what caused those deaths. Just mentioning it because I save seen none of that with the new fish.

The new fish dying show no signs of disease or sickness before death.

I'm done with dosing for now and as pointed out by you and others dosing isn't necessary for my tank at the moment.

My test kits are good. During my water change today I tested the fresh mix and the readings were MG 1380, CA 440 and KH 11.2. Very close to what the container said it should be. Using Red Sea Pro.

[JDT1234]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

The fish that don't die (the yellow tang, the maroon clown, the damsels) are all quite territorial....is it possible they just don't want anymore tank mates. The maroon can be especially agressive.....when you say die...what does death look like?
Do you see any scrapping, fighting, waggling, head to head mouth biting?
I get the thinking that the issue is not the water at all.....can you tell me the names of all the fish that died...with the exception of the chromis.....six become one in weeks....

The yellow tang and clown don't show out right signs of aggression towards anything right now. They all share nori together and swim with each other. No fish have been cowering or hiding from them. With regards to the new fish that have died I have witnessed none of what you mentioned.

While I have seen the yellow tang attack other yellow tangs that behavior has not shown itself to any other species. The maroon I believe is still a juvenile since it is maybe only 1-1.5" in size.

Nothing unusual about their deaths. Healthy in all appearances then just dead one day.

New fish that have died were sail fins (3), yellow eyed tangs (2), foxface (2).

All were added separately. All lasted 1-4 weeks or so.

[slief]

When you brought your new fish home, did you test the salinity of the water they came in? If you didn’t, it’s very possible that the water they were in was much lower than what your tank was at and as a result, they could have died from Osmotic shock which can take several days for them to succumb to. You really don’t want to increase salinity more than .003 in a 24 hour period if you want to avoid osmotic shock. Many stores keep their salinity and 1.021 or lower. Many mail order fish suppliers and wholesalers keep their salinity at 1.018 or lower. In fact, 1.014 isn’t uncommon at local wholesalers out here and you are almost sure to kill your fish if you try to acclimate them to reef salinity levels of 1.025. I always recommend a QT tank that you match the incoming saninity and then raise the salinity to DT levels slowly over the course of several days.

[JDT1234]

I'm comfortable with the bad water theory. Makes sense. After reading and getting your feedback that I should not be dosing yet I somehow got up to 100ml in CA and KH per day.....and still not achieving satisfactory readings.....while comparable tanks with more corals use a fraction of what I've been putting in.

And I have been dosing that for months. The water must be toxic I would think.

Regardless of where this takes us I need to stop dosing and get my water completely switched over to new and start from there.

The dying fish were the catalyst to me researching and my dosing compared to others is glaring.

Maybe the old fish became tolerant of the over dosing while it just does the new ones in??

[JDT1234]

Originally Posted by slief

When you brought your new fish home, did you test the salinity of the water they came in? If you didn’t, it’s very possible that the water they were in was much lower than what your tank was at and as a result, they could have died from Osmotic shock which can take several days for them to succumb to. You really don’t want to increase salinity more than .003 in a 24 hour period if you want to avoid osmotic shock. Many stores keep their salinity and 1.021 or lower. Many mail order fish suppliers and wholesalers keep their salinity at 1.018 or lower. In fact, 1.014 isn’t uncommon at local wholesalers out here and you are almost sure to kill your fish if you try to acclimate them to reef salinity levels of 1.025. I always recommend a QT tank that you match the incoming saninity and then raise the salinity to DT levels slowly over the course of several days.

Admittedly I don't acclimate my fish like I probably should. Monkey see monkey do I guess. When the fish stores I go to just float the new inventory for ten minutes and cut the bags open guess I figured it was ok to do it like that.

Thank you for the post. Going forward I will do a better job acclimating. Never heard of osmotic shock.

Question however. Wouldn't I have got lucky with some of them? They all are dying. No exceptions. My salinity is 1.025.

[JDT1234]

Follow up question regarding osmotic shock......are there any signs a fish is suffering from it?

[slief]

Originally Posted by JDT1234

Follow up question regarding osmotic shock......are there any signs a fish is suffering from it?

Not really. They just die a slow death. It can take a couple days to a couple weeks. I honestly don’t think your Ca, Alk or Mg dosing has anything to do with your issue. If you’re not testing the incoming water, I’d bet that is part of your issue. I went through this not to long ago with a friend who was seeing a 50% casualty rate with new fish. He was shocked to see the salinity the new fish were coming in and once he started matching the salinity of the bag water in his QT and slowly raising the salinity in his QT, the fish survival rate skyrocked.

[Tripod1404]

I dont know why the fish are dying but dosing 100ml a day is an absurd consumption rate. You would need to have many large SPS colonies that grow at monster rates to have that.

I am suspecting there is precipitation. Or your tests have gone bad. Try testing with a kit from a different brand to see if you get the same results.

Also, are you dosing carbon?

[slief]

Originally Posted by JDT1234

Admittedly I don't acclimate my fish like I probably should. Monkey see monkey do I guess. When the fish stores I go to just float the new inventory for ten minutes and cut the bags open guess I figured it was ok to do it like that.

My salinity is 1.025.

I’d bet that is your issue regardless of the health of your current fish. The fish go through hell before making it to the store and I don’t know any stores that keep their fish systems at 1.025. Pretty much all stores I know keep their fish systems at 1.021 or less and just floating and dumping the fish will guarantee the fish a lot of additional physical stress and damn near certain death going from 1.021 to 1.025 like that. If the water is lower salinity then you will pretty much have sealed their fate. Fish can handle relatively fast drops in salinity but they cannot handle fast increases. Based on everything I have read, that is the reason your fish are dying and I base this on 30 years of experience in the hobby and over 20 years in the industry dealing with wholesale fish and installations. And for the record, going from 1.021 to 1.025 is not something you should do in a single day period if you want to insure the least amount of stress and the best chances of survival for your fish.

[Cancun]

Originally Posted by JDT1234

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2662661

Above is an older post I started that has lost interest but I want to throw something out there. I am still loosing fish. Have done a total water transfusion over the last week. Salt mix tested meets all requirements with shining colors. I use Red Sea Pro.

My tank is a 110 gallon with the following corals:

2 hammers moderate size I would say
1 Bubble
1 Candy Cane
2 SPS given to me and I don't know the names. Can attach pics if need be
6 colonies of zoo's

Not much for a tank that size but I am dosing 100ml a day each in 2 part. My KH still stays relatively low in spite of that dosage. I am using BRS 2-part system.

Reading other posts here I am thinking what I am dosing is way out of line for what others seem to be doing.

I am now starting to get GHA and my phosphate test say zero but that is more than Likely due to the algae consuming the phosphate.

My question is can something like that be going on with my 2-part and in fact I am overdosing, getting false readings and killing the new fish additions?

CA 400
AK 7.8
MG 1380

Red Sea kits.

AK will fluctuate from 7-9. CA and MG stay pretty stable.

Hi....how are you acclimating your new fish? What is the salinity of the fish stores water and what is your tank salinity?

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[Cancun]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Yup I see that.
I see absolutely no reason to 2 part dose this tank at all, regular water changes will keep your parameters in check.

Stop dosing, followed by 4, 20% water changes.......

I also agree with the the others on dosing....

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[Cancun]

Originally Posted by Cancun

I also agree with the the others on dosing....

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Sorry I didn't read all of the posts....my guess is acclimation problems also....alot of LFS keep lower salinity then our tanks. The fish can appear healthy and even eatting then die in a few days to a few weeks.

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[JDT1234]

Everyone's posts seem to have the same theme.....overdosing, no need to be dosing and acclimation. Some aggression angles but from what I witness don't believe that to be the main concern. The water quality feedback feels right and I am going to start there.

Here is my course of action.

1: Doing 20 gallon water changes until the water in tank meets or is at least stabilizes to match the fresh batch going in.

2: Get s QT tank ready and available for new additions.

3: Stop dosing. Revisit dosing when my weekly changes cannot keep up with the corals needs.

Did I miss anything?

Does the QT tank need to be anything more than a small tank full of water?

Thank you all for your help.

[Uncle99]

Simple QT is glass water heater and a couple of PVC for hiding, a small filter or air stone.
Keep a check in ammonia, 10% change every couple of days, vacuum out uneaten foods.

A number of people discussed the shock. They are absolutely correct. Make sure you match both temp and salinity..by using a QT.....this should be easy

I don't keep them in QT for very long...for me...10 days provided eating and behavior normal but I am sure others have different times and ways as well..

Looks like you got some great feedback from the group!

Good luck!

[JDT1234]

Thank you all again. I will post again in a few weeks (hopefully) when I add more fish and see how it goes.

[Uncle99]

Yes please let the group know, this information will help others
Good luck

[mako61]

Originally Posted by JDT1234

Does the QT tank need to be anything more than a small tank full of water?

There are several threads on QTs. Here is my 2cents.

I think you need at least
tank - i use 20G long from petco 20 bucks
Heater - i use aqueon pro because its not easy to break ie plastic
air pump sponge filter or hang on back filter - get O2 into water

I also recommend - kinda in order or importance
$8 Seachem Ammonia Alert disk ( I dont reuse this )
2 to 4 inch PVC T and/or L - a couple hiding places for fish
tank lid + cheap led light - I use a $16 amazon led strip
cheap tiny power head - $6 from amazon its actual pretty good

Frequent water changes will prevent Ammonia. The disk is just a woops I am messing up indicator.

I had a Aquaclear HOB filter (bit pricey $50 petco) . I love it because I can run whatever I want in it . I like to have leave the sponge from filter and/or ceramic media in my sump (month at least) ready for a QT. This should prevent a cycle. Then I dont have to be as diligent about water changes. Once I use them in QT I dont put back in sump.

I spent about $110 ( including HOB filter ). You can do it cheaper if you use a simple sponge filter etc. it cost me about $15 for the alert dish, sponge, media I throw away each time I QT. I dont get fish that often so I dont keep it going. I store dry in a closet.

[JDT1234]

Originally Posted by mako61

There are several threads on QTs. Here is my 2cents.

I think you need at least
tank - i use 20G long from petco 20 bucks
Heater - i use aqueon pro because its not easy to break ie plastic
air pump sponge filter or hang on back filter - get O2 into water

I also recommend - kinda in order or importance
$8 Seachem Ammonia Alert disk ( I dont reuse this )
2 to 4 inch PVC T and/or L - a couple hiding places for fish
tank lid + cheap led light - I use a $16 amazon led strip
cheap tiny power head - $6 from amazon its actual pretty good

Frequent water changes will prevent Ammonia. The disk is just a woops I am messing up indicator.

I had a Aquaclear HOB filter (bit pricey $50 petco) . I love it because I can run whatever I want in it . I like to have leave the sponge from filter and/or ceramic media in my sump (month at least) ready for a QT. This should prevent a cycle. Then I dont have to be as diligent about water changes. Once I use them in QT I dont put back in sump.

I spent about $110 ( including HOB filter ). You can do it cheaper if you use a simple sponge filter etc. it cost me about $15 for the alert dish, sponge, media I throw away each time I QT. I dont get fish that often so I dont keep it going. I store dry in a closet.

Thanks Mako.