Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 03/12/2016, 05:44 PM   #3301
nvladik
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361
what's a safe amount to raise nitrates by in a single day? I am trying to get em up to 10ppm (dirty method(ish)), but I can't seem to get em high ehough and dynos are growing like crazy.


nvladik is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/12/2016, 08:24 PM   #3302
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
Is there any way to clean zoas of dinos? I have colony of about 80 rastas that I would like to transfer to new tank if I tear this one down.
Dinos are a function of the tank. If your tank has a healthy diverse biofauna, dinos will die out.

I don't know if there's a removal mechanism that won't just drive them to encyst. Maybe a hydrogen peroxide dip?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/12/2016, 10:33 PM   #3303
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvladik View Post
what's a safe amount to raise nitrates by in a single day? I am trying to get em up to 10ppm (dirty method(ish)), but I can't seem to get em high ehough and dynos are growing like crazy.
I couldn't keep my N and P simultaneously elevated with just throwing food in the tank. I had to resort to dosing N and P directly.

Started slow, but currently dosing 10ppm nitrate and 0.20ppm phosphate daily. Still don't grow GHA, but at least I get lots of chaeto and caulerpa growth.

Disclaimer: this isn't a recommendation, it's just what I'm doing. I have no sps I care about, and I'm also getting cyano growth, and adding N and/or P will NOT slow down dino growth at first. Only after considerable algae etc is present do the dinos seem to slow down.
Everyone's first reaction to dirty method is "it's not working".


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 07:15 AM   #3304
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,516
I may have found what is keeping my calcium low.

The repeated siphoning of the dinos has caused the tank to be hazy at times.
With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.

I switched off all the pumps and blasted the rocks and then looked at he debris in the water column.
At least 80% was at the same less than 100 micron size as those little white furballs alive in the overflow.
Their highly reflective bodies can be seen with the naked eye in a bright light against a dark background.

A calcareous skeleton that is less than 100 micron could be coccolithophores, but I've not found a match yet.
I'm already connecting the dots and of course I've got brilliant ideas now on my next move.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 07:16 AM   #3305
nvladik
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
I couldn't keep my N and P simultaneously elevated with just throwing food in the tank. I had to resort to dosing N and P directly.

Started slow, but currently dosing 10ppm nitrate and 0.20ppm phosphate daily. Still don't grow GHA, but at least I get lots of chaeto and caulerpa growth.

Disclaimer: this isn't a recommendation, it's just what I'm doing. I have no sps I care about, and I'm also getting cyano growth, and adding N and/or P will NOT slow down dino growth at first. Only after considerable algae etc is present do the dinos seem to slow down.
Everyone's first reaction to dirty method is "it's not working".
Agreed, throwing food into the tank is nothing, it's like a breakfast for dynos. I am dosing KNO3 already, and thanks for confirming the dose. I have SPS, but will give 10ppm a go anyway.

What do you do se for Phosphates? Can you point me in the right direction for some reading materials? Thanks!!!


nvladik is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 09:28 AM   #3306
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,516
After looking through the coccolithophores images available on the web for a while I get it why I didn't find a match.
Most of them are of dead ones and the the hair like feature has fallen off, but can often be seen laying around.

Below you can see coccoliths (armor plates ) with the "hair" still attached.
I have to say this has begun to look convincing.

Edit: I've cleverly set the size of my possible coccolithophore at slightly less than 50 microns for the core.






Last edited by DNA; 03/13/2016 at 09:45 AM.
DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 09:33 AM   #3307
pdiehm
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Delaware
Posts: 921
saw the beginnings of dino's in my tank. immediately shut the lights off and covered the tank. That night, I dosed 12ml peroxide. The next morning, I dosed 12ml peroxide. Have done this for 5 straight days. The fuzz on the rocks is disappearing and almost completely gone. Will continue to attack it this way for another 3-5 days.

Will do a 15g water change this week sometime, but so far the lights out and peroxide has done a pretty good job of clearing off the rocks. I have been turning the light on for 2 or so hours so the anemone gets some light.

My last test was 2ppm NO3 and 0ppm Phosphates. It's the first time in a few months I've gotten a NO3 reading, so I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.

At least I think...whether that's accurate or not, I can't say, but it sounds good and makes sense to me


pdiehm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 09:47 AM   #3308
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
 
joshky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central KY
Posts: 2,546
I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.


__________________
Josh

My 80g: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677031
joshky is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 10:31 AM   #3309
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshky View Post
I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.
I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 12:39 PM   #3310
jweist
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
one of the first indicators of a dino infestation is the death of an ATS...
I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
How would you make one for say a biocube 29?
The easiest way would be to throw a upflow scrubber in the back area. Or jimmy rig a water fall scrubber with acrylic in the middle chamber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Dinos are a function of the tank. If your tank has a healthy diverse biofauna, dinos will die out.
Maybe, If the "biofauna" is able to out compete the dinos for excess available nutrients in the water. And by biofauna I am assuming you are referring to the autotrophs of the tank. More animals would only potentially make more nutrients in the water not less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiehm View Post
saw the beginnings of dino's in my tank. immediately shut the lights off and covered the tank... Will continue to attack it this way for another 3-5 days....I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.
Light out will kill the organisms that were eating the excess nutrients but it will also release all of those nutrients back into the tank, allowing another dino bloom to take place in the near future. Dinos grow very fast and are quick to get the first grab at the nutrients in the water.


jweist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 01:25 PM   #3311
taricha
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Miss
Posts: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvladik View Post
Agreed, throwing food into the tank is nothing, it's like a breakfast for dynos. I am dosing KNO3 already, and thanks for confirming the dose. I have SPS, but will give 10ppm a go anyway.

What do you do se for Phosphates? Can you point me in the right direction for some reading materials? Thanks!!!
here's what I would recommend:
either Seachem flourish - phosphorus. It's derived from potassium phosphate.
or find a high P fish food, one that has fish meal as the first several ingredients.

what I actually did:
I used a miracle grow 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea, nothing else.
Then I read a suggestion in the macroalgae forum that the simultaneous presence of nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia can cause cyano and although I was very pleased with macro growth, the cyano growth is unacceptable.

So to get away from ammonia & urea I tried changing to an industrial cleaner from home depot: Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)-
It's 80% trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, and 20% sodium sesquicarbonate. 6% phosphorus by mass. I ran the numbers based on amounts I intended to add, and although my chem knowledge is pretty limited, there was nothing in there that put up red flags for me. My KH was a little low anyway, and I could stand for my pH to rise a little.
It hasn't helped with the cyano growth, and my halimeda seems to be dying back, so I'm probably going to pull the plug on the TSP.

I read bunch of stuff in the macro forum, they do a lot of work with controlling nutrients other than with fish food.


taricha is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 02:56 PM   #3312
nvladik
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361





nvladik is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 02:59 PM   #3313
nvladik
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361
What do you guys think? Dyno immigration program or dyno breeding program?

I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.


nvladik is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 03:00 PM   #3314
nvladik
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
here's what I would recommend:
either Seachem flourish - phosphorus. It's derived from potassium phosphate.
or find a high P fish food, one that has fish meal as the first several ingredients.

what I actually did:
I used a miracle grow 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea, nothing else.
Then I read a suggestion in the macroalgae forum that the simultaneous presence of nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia can cause cyano and although I was very pleased with macro growth, the cyano growth is unacceptable.

So to get away from ammonia & urea I tried changing to an industrial cleaner from home depot: Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)-
It's 80% trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, and 20% sodium sesquicarbonate. 6% phosphorus by mass. I ran the numbers based on amounts I intended to add, and although my chem knowledge is pretty limited, there was nothing in there that put up red flags for me. My KH was a little low anyway, and I could stand for my pH to rise a little.
It hasn't helped with the cyano growth, and my halimeda seems to be dying back, so I'm probably going to pull the plug on the TSP.

I read bunch of stuff in the macro forum, they do a lot of work with controlling nutrients other than with fish food.
Thanks taricha. I picked up Aquavitro Activate, same concept as flourish and will give it a go in small doses first.


nvladik is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 03:25 PM   #3315
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvladik View Post
What do you guys think? Dyno immigration program or dyno breeding program?

I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.
A dino scrubber? Hmmm maybe.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 03:33 PM   #3316
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by jweist View Post
I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.

Maybe, If the "biofauna" is able to out compete the dinos for excess available nutrients in the water. And by biofauna I am assuming you are referring to the autotrophs of the tank. More animals would only potentially make more nutrients in the water not less.
I didn't say ATS doesn't work. I said it's usually not enough. This isn't theory- it's based on the experiences in this thread. And yes - dinos can and have killed ATSs.

Biofauna is competition, as well as predatory. The reason dinos take over in the first place is because of artificial conditions created in our tanks due to the extinction of competitors and predators. There's usually a critical event that destroys the natural state and sets up a stage for dinos.

The dinos then "terraform" or "mariform" the water chemistry so they stay on top of the food chain. The slow flow UV with darkness and skimming shrinks their numbers and exports their waste and chemicals, so the tank has a foothold on a "natural" state. Then the live rock brings in competition and predation that kicks them in the proverbial teeth!

But dinos never go away. They're always waiting for that unnatural state to come back so they can wreck the environment again.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 04:14 PM   #3317
jweist
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I didn't say ATS doesn't work. I said it's usually not enough. This isn't theory- it's based on the experiences in this thread. And yes - dinos can and have killed ATSs.

Biofauna is competition, as well as predatory. The reason dinos take over in the first place is because of artificial conditions created in our tanks due to the extinction of competitors and predators. There's usually a critical event that destroys the natural state and sets up a stage for dinos.

The dinos then "terraform" or "mariform" the water chemistry so they stay on top of the food chain. The slow flow UV with darkness and skimming shrinks their numbers and exports their waste and chemicals, so the tank has a foothold on a "natural" state. Then the live rock brings in competition and predation that kicks them in the proverbial teeth!

But dinos never go away. They're always waiting for that unnatural state to come back so they can wreck the environment again.
I never said to use an ATS alone... I'm saying that the blackout method will kill some of the dinos (not all) and will release nutrients back into the water which a skimmer would not be able to touch.

In my experience anything that releases nutrients back into the water is a bad way to go about it... sorry but I think uv sterilizer would fall under this category too because of the die off it would create. The unnatural state that dinos love would easily be created by a big die off.

Dinos usually are the first to populate a new or freshly cleaned scrubber screen. They also like low lit areas so if your light isn't powerful enough they will probably out compete hair algae.

Fauna means animals and animals can't process every last bit of the nutrients they take in. I think you mean flora which is plant life and they can out-compete dinos if there numbers are great enough.


jweist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/13/2016, 07:42 PM   #3318
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
pods and ciliates are predators
algae and phyto are competitors

UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS

I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.

It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."

There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.

When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 03:30 AM   #3319
34cygni
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA
With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.
From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos. Take a look at the following and see what you think...

Introduction to the Foraminifera
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/foram/foramintro.html

The Hooper Virtual Natural History Museum
https://uccforams.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/biology/

Modern foraminifera: biological and ecological basics
http://www.geo.tu-freiberg.de/oberse...ndy_becker.pdf

Note the little hairs radiating from the forams in a couple of the micrographs -- they're clearly visible in the first image on the Wikipedia page for forams. That seems to track with your description and would explain why they each have their own little space. There are on the order of 4000 species of forams, 99% of which are benthic, interestingly. IIRC, you described finding tiny shells and rods in the calcareous debris you previously reported, both of which are shapes made by benthic forams.

BTW, some pink sand beaches are known to get their color from foram shells. I can't help but wonder if there's a connection to this...


Quote:
04/30/2014, 04:11 PM #206
Squidmotron

I just discovered something that is interesting. Since I have never heard this before in relation to dinos I thought I would pass it along.

Today I added about 15 lbs of pink somoa sand (not live) sand to my refugium. I was curious if there was any particular reason the dinos weren't growing much in my refugium and so thought to recreate the environment of the aquarium above. My refugium never had any substrate. Just caulerpa.

Within 4 hours, dino populations exploded. And I mean exploded. Dinos rose to much larger than normal heights in their usual spots and started covering all the rocks. The substrate began literally bubbling as new dinos formed (even in tank areas where I did not add sand).

(and yes, these are not diatoms -- as you might expect from the addition of sand -- although I wonder if there are both present)
--

Quote:
Originally Posted by jweist
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef
one of the first indicators of a dino infestation is the death of an ATS...
I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.
Quote:
08/02/2014, 09:22 PM #311
Amphiprion

My 40g system started off with an algal scrubber, which maintained undetectable PO4 and NO3. A month or two of this and the introduction of something that had the dinoflagellates on it led to a quick explosion. The initial bloom was so severe that it killed the entire scrubber within a couple of days--the filamentous algae literally turned golden and sloughed away.
Quote:
09/21/2015, 10:00 AM #1874
Cyberdude

The dinos killed it. No green algae left anywhere.
And there's this, as well...


Quote:
08/25/2014, 06:25 PM #326
yeldarbj

I finally can share some positive results with my dino battle. I had an ostreopsis variety. I posted a microscopic video on one of these dino threads, and Pants is the one who suggested I had ostreopsis due to the tether-ball like motion showed.

My theory is that the dinos bloomed when there was an absence of other competing algaes. I had zero nitrates and zero phosphates at the time my dinos starting presenting last January. Like others, I've tried all the various methods without success. I started a small, homemade algae turf scrubber just to see if I could grow green algae. It was moderately successful. I cleaned the screen about every 4-6 weeks but saw no impact on the dinos. I tried increased feeding and dosing nitrate, silicate, and iron just to try to grow algae. ...

I should mention that I have an sps dominant tank, 105g with 6 fish. I fed the fish once per day and maintained Ca/Alk with dosing pumps and dose kalk every hour with the dosing pump. By the middle of August, my nitrate levels have climbed to about 2.5 ppm and phosphate to about 0.06 on a Hannah checker.

AND THE DINOFLAGELLATES ARE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do now have some hair algae and cyano in the display tank that is a welcome sight. The only form of filtration that I'm using now is the algae scrubber, but it doesn't even seem to be growing much. I'm starting to see pods on the glass that I haven't seen since last fall.

Hopefully this information can help someone.
To reiterate, this is what worked for yeldarbj...


Quote:
04/20/2015, 12:14 PM #966
yeldarbj

If you want a permanent solution, then I'd suggest nutrients, nutrients, nutrients. I've been skimmerless for 10 months now and dino free (ostreospsis) for 8 months. I run a small home made algae turf scrubber for filtration and have a full sps tank. Algae is your friend and the dino's enemy.
It seems yeldarbj may have invented the dirty method!


34cygni is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 09:17 AM   #3320
jweist
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
pods and ciliates are predators
algae and phyto are competitors

UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS

I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.

It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."

There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.

When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?
I'm not saying to only use an ATS, so your analogies don't make sense. I am saying that I think it's a big part of the equation.
I'm also not denying the fact that UV could kill dinos at a slow enough flow. I don't know if my UV was slow enough to kill the dinos but it definitely killed other things releasing their nutrients back into the water. This large flux of nutrients slows down the scrubber and can give the dinos a chance to get a foot hold in the tank again. Same thing would apply to anything that creates die off; blackout, peroxide, UV, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post

And there's this, as well...

To reiterate, this is what worked for yeldarbj...

It seems yeldarbj may have invented the dirty method!
Macros will usually get smothered by dinos too easily to be effective at competing against them. And if there is not a big enough area for them to grow out it won't make much of a dent on the nutrient levels anyway.
I already said that dinos can out-compete GHA if the light is weak. Yeldarbj probably created a situation where he has a lot of algae everywhere in his tank including the scrubber that are competing with the dinos and keeping them in check. If he left his scrubber going for over a month at a time and it still never grew GHA then his light was weak. Not to mention the die off that would happen underneath the top layers (because of his lack of cleaning), increasing the food for the dinos and decreasing competition. It's hard to tell from the information provided but I'm guessing that if he scrapped off the top layer of dinos there would be green underneath... this and the algae he has in the tank are what's controlling the dinos. Dinos need N & P to live... that's a fact. They are also very quick to grow and eat these nutrients. If there is nothing competing with them for the available nutrients the dinos will win every time. If the GHA is doing a better job than dinos at sucking up the nutrients in the water then you have a healthy tank. Purposefully trying to increase the nutrients in the water is going to make to dinos grow like crazy until GHA or similar starts to grow to a point where they out compete the dinos for nutrients and space.


jweist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 11:59 AM   #3321
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,033
If you kill dinos, they create waste that must be exported ... Agree

Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.

For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.

It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint. Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos. You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 02:02 PM   #3322
jweist
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.
What? No, my view is that competition is key. In any case of dinos they are the first to populate an area because of the quick rate they can grow, especially in low nutrient environments without sufficient competition. Now if you drop an A bomb on the tank and kill everything, good and bad, you will loose a lot of the things that were trying to keep the tank free of dinos as well as the dinos themselves. In this scenario the dinos have the upper hand after the die off because of their fast assimilation rate. The reason an ATS is necessary is because it utilizes light, flow, and attachment to its full potential. This is needed to be able to suck up the little amount of nutrients in the system that the dinos are feeding off of. I think the dirty method could work because it would increase competition in the system, basically creating a weak scrubber in the display. I wouldn't recommend doing it this way... but I'm not saying it doesn't work.
Quote:
For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.
I used to think if my N & P are testing zero then how are these things growing? Well if there are dinos growing in your tank then there are nutrients in the system and the dinos are eating it up fast. Faster than the competition (what ever that maybe).
Quote:
It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint.
I never added new live rock to my tank. All I did was increase competition within the tank. In fact I wouldn't recommend any changes to the live rock, even rearranging it. Putting new live rock in would cause die off and increase nutrients.
Quote:
Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos.
If your feeding the tank at all then there are new nutrients being delivered to the tank and if dinos are growing that's enough for algae.
Quote:
You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.
Exporting dinos is great because your getting rid of nutrients from the system, while keeping the completion in the tank. Killing things will reintroduce their nutrients back into the tank. There's no way your skimmer is pulling all the dying organics out before they turn into inorganics.


jweist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 02:41 PM   #3323
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
 
joshky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central KY
Posts: 2,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.
Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.


__________________
Josh

My 80g: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677031
joshky is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 05:32 PM   #3324
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post
From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos.
You may be right here, but it would be at the extreme small end for foraminifera that start at 50 microns.

In my last experiment I described how low calcium and alkalinity led to the demise of nearly all my dinos.
In this one I siphon at least half of the dinos twice a week and notice hazy water column at times and calcareous critters.
These are hints to what could be going on with the increase in dinos after water changes that many have reported.

Manual removal is surely not going to rid you of dinos, but the there is a population explosion going on right now with the pods and various micro critters.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03/14/2016, 06:02 PM   #3325
Billybatz9
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshky View Post
Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.
What did you do?


Billybatz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.