ROWAphos induced Red slime/Algae bloom ???

[johnfr]

I have some kind of organism growing in my tank that I don't think is cyno red slime. This organism grows primarily in high flow regions and does very well in the dark areas such as my sump which has almost no light. I am getting desperate to find a course of action to take.


Copy of post on Advanced forum. 02/05/2007 12:45 PM

Am wondering if ROWAphos somehow induced Red slime/Algae bloom???
My 150 tank has been running for over 3 years. My Nitrates have always tested at very low levels. I have a refugium full of macro which is harvested monthly. My Seachem test kit (not the most sensitive I know) showed Phosphates at nearly 0 also. However, over the last few months the algae growth has incresed. I recently decided that it would be a good idea to add a phosphate removal filter to the system. I purchased some ROWAphos and put 500 ml per the recommended dosage (220 gal combined tank refug + sump) in an old Rainbow Fluidized bed left over from my fresh water days. Adjusted flow to give good fluidization.

After two days of Phosphate removal operation I was experiencing a huge algae bloom such that it is difficult to see from one end of tank to the other. Additionally, I have lots of red slime forming anyplace where large water flow occurs. ie., outlet of protein skimmer, in high flow hoses, overflow grates. large flow = red slime. This is contray to normal red slime charactoristics that it commonly collects in areas of low flow. This is more of a bright red filimatous type of algae.

Before parameters

PH =8.3
Cal =420
Alk =2.5 meq
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 0
Phosphates = 0.01

After 2 days using ROWAphos
PH =8.3
Cal =420
Alk =2.5 meq
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 0
Phosphates = 0.00

After reviewing one of my reef keeping books it has one sentence stating phosphate removers can cause macro algae to die off releasing pollutants into the tank. I would think my after tests would detect that but as you can see parameters appear to be good.

Anyone have any ideas or experience this?

02/06/2007 05:50 PM


I have lots of red slime forming anyplace where large water flow occurs. ie., outlet of protein skimmer, in high flow hoses, overflow grates. large flow = red slime. This is contray to normal red slime charactoristics that it commonly collects in areas of low flow. This is more of a bright red filimatous type of algae.

The bloom is subsiding but still have the bright red slime. This is different from the typical cyno I have seen in the past. Boyd's red slime remover couldn't touch it. Only forms where large flows exhist.

None of my corals seem to be suffering. All look good. Am concerned about this strange bright red slime. Anyone have any idea what this strange red slime is???

02/06/2007 09:48 PM

I uploaded some photos of the red slime into my gallary.

Retested water tonight. Results were:

PH =8.35
Cal =410
Alk =3.2 meq
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 0
Phosphates = 0.00
Silica = 0
Salinity = 1.025

Tested RO water to verify RO filter is working properly. Zero desolved solids in RO water so RO filter is working.

Today the algae growth on glass was noticably less. Water has cleared slightly. Red slime is still persisting in high flow areas. Yesterday Skimmer was not skimming anything. Skimmer is now skimming. Skimmate is very wet. Probably the Boyds red slime remover I added 2 days ago.

So far no corals seem to be suffering except for one sickly bubble coral that has been slowly deteriating for weeks. Assumed to be because of high phosphates which was one of the reasons I decided to try RowaPhos in the first place.

I am currently continuing filtering with Rowaphos. Plants in fuge are still looking good. Have harvested down to small quantity to avoid any chance of die off dumping nutrients back into water.

Hobby Experience: 30 yrs fresh water. 3 yrs reef
Current Tanks: 150 gal reef/fish, 30 gal mini reef, sump w/skimmer, 55 gal refugium, RO filter for make up, auto top off from Klak reservor, 2- 400 watt MH 2-96 watt 10k floresent & 2 55 watt antic lighting
Interests: aquariums. scuba, computers


02/07/2007 8:07PM

Little change over the last day. Skimmer has stopped skimming again. Red matterial is now starting to spread over parts of the sandbed.

[CaptiveReefSystems]

check your e-mail

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is not normal for GFO to cause a cyanobacteria burst, and often the reverse has been true that using GFO can reduce cyano problems by reducing nutrients, but I suppose it might be possible if your tank had ideal conditions for them but otherwise had iron as a limiting factor. In general, cyano are especially good at taking up iron, and so should be one of the last organisms to become iron deficient. So the likelihood seems low to me that the Rowaphos caused the cyano problem.

I address it here in the context of iron additions:

Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

from it:

"Cyanobacteria and Iron

It has been suggested by some hobbyists that iron additions to reef tanks may drive the growth of cyanobacteria, and that one should not dose it for that reason. I’ve not seen that effect in my tank, nor have I heard it reported in others. It was also not reported to be significant in the open ocean studies described above. Nevertheless, since cyanobacteria are a problem for many reefkeepers, this issue is an especially important one to address.

Fortunately, there is a great deal of literature on the relationship between iron and cyanobacteria. Most of the literature indicates that cyanobacteria are especially well suited to low iron environments because they are able to release siderophores that bind to iron and give them a competitive advantage over other organisms. This is, in fact, one of the reasons why they have been studied so extensively with respect to iron. If they do generally have a competitive edge at low iron levels, then adding iron supplements and swamping out this competitive advantage may make strategic sense if reducing cyanobacteria is a goal.

In one paper, for example, the researchers conclude “that cyanobacteria are efficiently adapted to grow in low-Fe environments (providing sufficient light for photosynthesis is available)…� In a different paper, the researchers state: “This review focuses on how cyanobacteria respond to growth-limiting levels of available iron and on how siderophores potentially alter the biological availability of iron in the system thereby allowing the cyanobacteria to exist at low iron availabilities.� In another paper the researchers show that “The growth rates and intracellular and total cellular
iron levels for Synechococcus PCC 7002 demonstrate that iron availability does not directly dictate the maximum growth rate of these cyanobacteria…�

Finally, in this paper, it appears that the three species of cyanobacteria tested are not iron limited for growth in the ocean (2 are phosphate limited, the other may be phosphate limited) while one of the species of macroalgae may be iron limited (Dictyota bartayresiana).

To be fair, some researchers do make seemingly contrary claims, though the fact that there are many species of cyanobacteria makes that result not overly surprising. One research group states that “Our results suggest that in 75% of the global ocean, iron availability limits nitrogen fixation by this organism.� Previously, other researchers had shown that iron does indeed stimulate growth of this particular cyanobacterium.

These results for cyanobacteria are essentially what one would expect for an organism that can grow well even in low iron conditions. This fact does not demonstrate that the cyanobacteria won’t become iron limited under the higher phosphate and nitrate conditions present in a reef tank, but it also does not indicate that there is, at present, any cause for alarm about cyanobacteria and iron additions."

[johnfr]

I am thinking that I have some kind of bacteria or fungus that is red. I
have had experience with cyno in the past and this stuff is very different. No real slime, no air bubbles when exposed to lighting, grows equaly well in dark. When
disturbed it is like a red dust or rust floating in the water. It prefers
high flow areas such as the interior of my skimmer or overflows. Saw
something like this a year or so ago in my replacement salt water storage
tank. Went to do a water change one day and found the sides of the storage
vessel bright red with a thin film. Dumped the water and cleaned the vessel
very well with bleach water and rinsed thoroughly and it never occurred
again. What ever it was gave me a good allergy reaction as I worked with it.
I have a high sensitivity to fungus.???

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh, it grows in the dark?

Are you adding any sort of carbon sources, like vodka, vinegar, sugar, etc? Those can drive bacterial growth.

[johnfr]

Yes, definately grows in the dark. No sugar vinager or vodka. Never add such things. Feed fish very sparingly. They get a 2"x2" square of nori algae every other day and about 2 cubes of Mysid shrimp or brine shrimp every other day or two. I did add some Boyds Red Slime remover when this stuff first appeared thinking is was cyno. Had no effect as I noted in an earlier post.


Am happy to report that things have improved over night. Before going to bed last night I turned off the pump to the ROWAphos fluidized bed and the refugium. Water was nearly clear when lights came on this morning. Red film is still present at high flow areas in overflow, sump and skimmer. I had also cleaned the skimmer last night and this morning was still not skimming anything.

Corals seem to be surviving thus far. Yesterday our clown fish spawned in the mist of all this. Must not be bothering them much.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you know that it is a living thing as opposed to a chemical precipitate or collection of fine settled GFO particles?

[boxfishpooalot]

Perhpas gfo made the ratio of P to N more favorable to this organism? Like how some organisms grow faster with improved N-P ratios. Just a thought. Redfield ratio or somthing.

[johnfr]

Randy,
Unfortuately, I don't have a microscope to look at it. I will take some to work to see if I can detect under our microscopes at work. The scopes at work are designed for inspecting mechanical parts and don't work well for this kind of stuff. Was barely able to make out rotofers I used to feed our baby clown fish a couple years ago.

I don't think it is fines. It tends to collect in some of the most high current areas. The one photo in my gallary shows the outlet of the protien skimmer. You will note that it has short threads of something trailling in the current. I would think if it was fines it would tend to collect more in low current points or centers of whirl pools etc.

Will do more water tests tonight and a water change. Will report later on anything interesting I see.

As always, thanks for your input.

[CaptiveReefSystems]

after further thought, I think the iron thing is the likely suspect. When you introduced ROWAphos, the iron level in your aquarium water increased. I think Randy was on the right path with an algae that liked the higher levels of iron. Once it consumed the iron and the levels dropped, it began to disappear. It might be worth finding a test kit for iron and see where you are.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've certainly never heard of a red slime that grew in the dark after using GFO. Maybe you should name it after yourself.

[johnfr]

Don't think I want this stuff named after me.

I managed to get some reasonably good photos of the stuff today. Have included in this post. These photos were taken at 64x magnification.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...S_S_algae7.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...S_S_algae6.JPG


Will see if I can find a iron test kit.

[Nitroq2]

Weird but this is exactly what happened to me about 1 week after using Phosban in a Mag 350 sandwiched between carbon, I had a sudden burst in a green hair type algae that is very tough and grows in small patches, Then the next week this red slime looking algae started first to show up on the glass where my powerhead hit, then it just started spreading, it seems to thrive in high flow it actually looks more dry than slimey and blows off in mats. I never had algae before this even though I phosphates. The phosphates in my tank diminished so I took out the Phosban, I should also mention that my nitrate was at 40 I have since got it down to 25 but it seems to have stuck. I will check phosphates again tonight to make sure they didn't come back in full force. But the algae is a very dark red actually more wine or maroon colored. I also was told by a friend that he experienced the same issue using phosban.

[Nitroq2]

By the way, the green hair algae in my tank is small 1/4 inch tall and usually the patches are 1/4" to 1" in diameter but they spread fast to different area and my overflow is half covered in it and its starting to grow together. Also note that the red slime type algae in mine got worse after the water change as did the green stuff. I don't see the feather look in the algae that woudl be tale tale signs for bryopsis

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It just scraped off the surfaces it was on easily?

You might try adding it to some straight vinegar or diluted muriatic acid and see if it dissolves. Many iron salts will dissolve.

I'm not sure I'd bother with an iron kit. It is pretty unlikely that you cna detect any, even if the levels are unusually high. Such kits do not work at levels anywhere close to NSW levels.

[Nitroq2]

My red algae comes off easily with a turkey baster and a blast, it comes off in mats. I checked it in vinegar and it didn't disolve. The green stuff isn't coming off that stuff is really strong. Will purchase a Phosphate reactor to run rowaphos, Randy do you have one you recommend? I will also start harvesting my chaeto weekly. should I just cut it down to a softball size and then just pull it gently apart to give room?

[johnfr]

Randy,

The stuff is very easy to scrap off. Often just a light touch of a fingertip is all that is needed.

I collected a sample from an area I had not scrapped yet in a clear jar with about 1/4 cup of salt water. I added 2 TBL spoons of white distilled vinegar and agitated for at least 2 minutes. No sign of it disolving. Still is in small clumps as seen in the photomicrographs I posted yesterday.

I want to go on record to say that I don't believe ROWAphos caused this problem. Through it's effective reduction of phosphates I believe it exposed a underlying problem in my system that any phosphate reduction (GFO) medium would have caused. Bruce at Captive Reef has been very helpful taking time to personally email me with questions and advice. I am very impressed with his personal customer support. I wish more companies were like that.

What have I learned from this:
1. Never start a treatment with a new product (new to my experience) without consulting Reef Central and other sources to find out what other users have experienced with the product.
2 Always error on the side of conservativeness. I started with 500 mg of ROWAphos assuming I had elevated levels of phosphates. After reading post by others using GFO's it appears the most successful users started with low doses. The low dose avoids shocking your system.
3. One of my bigger mistakes was, as Bruce at Captive Reef pointed out, was to try to use a Lifegaurd Fluidized bed. As Bruce pointed out, the Lifegaurd bed doesn't have a foam filter on the outlet. This probably allowed fines to excape into my system. Strongly recommend using a fluidized bed designed for GFO's. I am going out today to see if I can find a TFL fludized bed per Bruce's recommendation.

As of today our tank is running clean and clear. No significant algae buildup on the glass over the last 24 hours and the corals are looking happy and healthy. Even the sickly bubble coral is open this morning bigger than it's been in 2 weeks.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will also start harvesting my chaeto weekly. should I just cut it down to a softball size and then just pull it gently apart to give room?

I'd let macroalgae grow so bit it takes all the available light and room. Then trim it back as necessary. The more you have growing, the more effective it will be.

No, I don't have a GFO reactor to recommend. A cannister filter may be OK as well. I've sued it that way, mixed with activated carbon.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As of today our tank is running clean and clear. No significant algae buildup on the glass over the last 24 hours and the corals are looking happy and healthy. Even the sickly bubble coral is open this morning bigger than it's been in 2 weeks.

Hopefully the red slime will slowly disappear. Let us know what happens.

[johnfr]

After 4 days the red slime has not returned. Still persists in the hoses to my pumps etc and to some extent in the sump. For the most part the tank has returned to normal.

I am running a very low flow through the fluidized bed since Friday. Just enough to keep the ROWAphos fludized. I am still getting green algae on the glass but has slowed down to scrapping every 3rd day. Alk, cal, ph all remain at normal levels. Nitrates test zero as do phosphates. I added carbon filter to the canister filter used to circulate the water through fluidized bed on Sunday. Plants in refugium are showing active growth.

The longer the ROWAphos reactor runs the more my acros are improving in color. I can detect significant color changes occuring with blues appearing at tips where only brown growth has been the rule. Hopefully things will continue to improve.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds good. Thanks for the update.

Happy Reefing.