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Old 03/06/2007, 03:49 PM   #51
Acrylics
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Helter,
Not sure how much that would help to be honest. I can imagine the tank still wanting to bow in the back and "pushing" forward but don't know really. I kinda think if you trust the front, then you'd trust the back as well ?

Chris,
Don't know if there is any specific test method, I keep the individual solvents isolated until I make a solution. I usually make 6oz at a time which will last about a day. If we are doing a 6 x10 kreisel, maybe a quart. Indiluted solvents are kept in the original glass bottles that they come in. I buy 4-6 gallons at a time, figure quart a week, gallon a month. So I prolly buy twice a year, never had a problem keeping solvent around for 6 months or so. WO40 - different issue

Shane,
Why make a channel? If you have a CNC router - easy. On a router table, double face tape a (round) template to the acrylic, set a coupla stops to hit the template and spin it. Not sure if this makes sense in text. Concept is easy, explaing it is the hard part sometimes
FWIW, I've always just glued the tube directly to the sheet, never had one fail.

HTH,
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Old 03/06/2007, 04:56 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylics
Helter,
Not sure how much that would help to be honest. I can imagine the tank still wanting to bow in the back and "pushing" forward but don't know really. I kinda think if you trust the front, then you'd trust the back as well ? James
Thanks for the input.

What I'm thinking is if I can keep the back panel from bowing it would make it less likely the tank could fail?

I'm assuming if a tank is pulling from the front and the back, it's going to be more stressful than just bowing from the front?
Does this make sense? Maybe my 5 inch top collar could handle the stress from just the front?

I have a carpenter friend coming in a couple of days, I'll see what he thinks.

There has to be way to make this tank stronger.


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Old 03/06/2007, 05:41 PM   #53
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Thanks James.

Helter, Any way to attach some steel or aluminum box tubing to the front edge? Maybe pre-tension it just slightly to counteract the bow?


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Old 03/06/2007, 06:57 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by H20ENG
Thanks James.

Helter, Any way to attach some steel or aluminum box tubing to the front edge? Maybe pre-tension it just slightly to counteract the bow?
Maybe, I'll have to look into that...


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Old 03/08/2007, 09:06 PM   #55
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My first acrylic project (the cube back a couple of pages) went decently well with no leaks. My second project has not.

I've attempted something quite a bit more difficult, and am having some issues. Amazingly enough, I didn't have too much difficulty actually designing and building it, but the issues came during the testing phase.

It's a chamber for rowa-phos. Below is a picture during the build.

The bottom is actually leaking. In order to create a more solid hold (which in hind sight might have done the opposite), I routed a clean 1/8" or so inch ring for the tube to sit in. I then soaked both sides of the (tube and routed ring) , inserted, and put an extra bead around the rim. It's leaking slowly at this point when I fill it with water (no pump pressure).

Sadly enough, I did this as well with the top, and fear it will leak there as well. What are my options? Do I need to scrap the project and start from scratch? It's drying now from the water testing. From past reading if I recall right, I have maybe two solutions. 1) bead a little weld-on 4 back in the recessed channel, hoping it will fill and seal. 2) use something like weld-on 40 (or 42???) if I can get it locally, and actually create a seal around the outside edge that would resemble more like a caulk/silicone seal.

Although I'm not 100%, the tube was pre-cut and looked very smooth and flat, as well my routed ring seemed to come out very well.

I guess you can't win them all. At least it didn't happen on some of the future more material intensive projects I have planned




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Old 03/08/2007, 09:18 PM   #56
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Call your local plastics distributor and ask for a small 4oz kit of weld-on 40 and use this to seal around the tube. Don't bother with 42 as you need an applicator gun ($200) and static mixing tips ($1 each use). You *might* try using 16 but it's kinda iffy IMO, if it doesn't work - you just killed it.
Another option (if the joint is weak enough) is to just pull the tube back out and glue it to another piece of acrylic.
What size tube? if'n ya don't mind me asking
'course if it doesn't work out on this one, cheap mistake in the long run, better to learn on small, inexpensive things.

HTH,
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Old 03/08/2007, 09:39 PM   #57
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It's a 4" tube, 1/4" wall. I'll see if I can get the 40 locally. If I remember, 16 shrinks a lot correct? If so, I can see how that would not work well in this situation. What's the consistency of 40? Is it more like "syrup" (for lack of a better term) or something in-between that and 4?

The joint unfortunately is very solid, but obviously something isn't 100% right. I tried a forceful pull on it without any luck, as I was thinking the same thing.

Was it a bad idea to attempt the recessed channel? Should I just put it straight down on the plate? Or would 40 have worked well with my idea, just not well with 4? Why is the sky blue? How can you stand all of us crazy non-knowledgeable newbies? hehe

And I agree on the cost. Although it's no fun to "waste" material, it's certainly better in the long run to do it now. My next projects will be going back to doing some of the square boxes with as perfect precision as possible now that I have the router table.

Thanks for your help!


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Old 03/08/2007, 09:58 PM   #58
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The channel was fine. The tolerances needed to be tighter and often when routing a groove like that, the bottom of the groove does not come out perfectly flat.

The solution would be tigher tolerances and a longer soak and more pressure to push the solvent softened areas together.

If you have a dremel, you could drill and try to inject #16 with syringe into the leaking area. As James mentioned, a bead of #40 around the whole tower would also work very well.

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Old 03/08/2007, 09:59 PM   #59
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40 is like a heavy syrup. It is an actual acrylic resin whereas 16 is essentially a solvent thickened with monomer (acrylic).
I personally don't like the channel but understand the reasoning. The problem is that getting the bottom of the channel machined without pitting is tough because the tops of cutters tend to pit acrylic. Since you are getting the most bond out of the joint at the end of the tube, that joint is compromised by a pitted channel. The channels only work well if you fill the channel about 1/2 full of 40 then drop the tube in. It works great with wood work as the glues tend to fill around, not the same with acrylic unless you have something that actually fills, like 40.
I always glue straight to plate and it works well, but obviously not the only way.

Hmm, how can I stand it? I was a newbie once too

James


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Old 03/08/2007, 10:01 PM   #60
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Or what he said... as I am just an aprentice.


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Old 03/08/2007, 10:11 PM   #61
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Excellent info. I'll let you know how it turns out. My local shop has a lot of acrylic and tons of weld-on, so it's pretty likely I should be able to get the 40 picked up and fixed tomorrow. 40 still require a good 24 hours MINIMUM for a good solid hold or is it shorter/longer?

If I try another like this in the future, I'll likely do it without the channel or at minimum go straight to 40. The reasoning in my head made sense at the time, but I completely understand and agree with why it might have not turned out well.


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Old 03/08/2007, 10:25 PM   #62
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For testing in something like you're doing, I'd say a good afternoon of curing should be fine. For max strength, should wait a few days, but for what you're doing - doesn't look like max strength is all that necessary, just a good seal.
Get a small poly bowl, old margerine tub, or similar for mixing. The kit will come with a popsicle stick for stirring, might want to have extras. Don't mix it all up, you can get a few uses out of it. Also try to find a 5cc syringe (no needle) to dispense the 40 without getting sloppy. Don't bother drawing it into the syringe, just pull the plunger out and put the 40 down the top.
Oh, and also eat a Tylenol when you first open the 40, many folks get headaches from the vapors without a respirator, no they're not *that* bad

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Old 03/09/2007, 09:21 AM   #63
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WOW, tons of great info here guys!! Thanks

Questions that I have not found after reading 40+ pages this morning.

I am planning on building a calcium reactor this weekend. Got all the supplies in and some new tools that I was playing with last night (circle jig, new router bits). Got a tube of #16 as well, my #4 was damaged durring shipping (got a gooey wet package) so have to reorder. Don't know of anyplace in the area that has it so the #16 will have to work.

1. I have a 6" OD acrylic tube with 1/8" walls that is 18" long. Planning on using this with some 1/4" acrylic ends. Is the 1/8" thick tube too thin for a reactor?

2. Next, I am planning on having a flat plate as a cap with multiple holes to seal it to a gasket on the top and use nylon screws to secure it. I plan to tap the bottom plate (the one attached to the acrylic tube) and have the top plate holes untapped for the screws. The plates will be 8" diameter (~1" from tube wall) and 1/4" acrylic sheet. My question is this: how far appart must the holes be to not weaken the acrylic yet provide equal pressure on the two plates to seal it off?

3. I am planning on having tow PVC elbows (threaded) feeding the reactor. One at the top, one at the bottom (upflow design). Not having that large a tap to thread them, what is the best way to attach the PVC to the acrylic? Was thinking of drilling a hole slightly smaller than the threads and screwing it in forcing a thread pattern, then using some #16 to adhere it in place. Better ideas?

4. I also have this idea. What about between the two plates, route a groove in them to seat a large O-ring (rubber or silicone) to seal it off? That would eliminate the large gasket problem. Anyone tried or thought of this?

Thanks for all the help and for the great info!


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Old 03/09/2007, 09:53 AM   #64
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Had a new thought, what about putting a groove on the top and bottom ends to the reactor for added support? I have a new circle jig that I think I can make an accurate enough groove to get a tight fit in the tube.

Here is a pic of what I am talking about. The smallest bit I have is 1/4" so there would be 1/8" open space.

Feedback?



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Old 03/09/2007, 10:41 AM   #65
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Grog: Try that hobby shop in elmhurst downtown, close to the train, with all the radio frequency remote control cars, (it is the street one over west from York, half a block north of the train). I got can of the acrylic glue weldon #4 a month ago.


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Old 03/09/2007, 10:50 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steverino
Grog: Try that hobby shop in elmhurst downtown, close to the train, with all the radio frequency remote control cars, (it is the street one over west from York, half a block north of the train). I got can of the acrylic glue weldon #4 a month ago.
Thanks! I'll check it out!


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Old 03/09/2007, 11:14 AM   #67
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TheGrog, in reply to your idea, look at my post just a few up.


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Old 03/09/2007, 11:18 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheGrog
I am planning on building a calcium reactor this weekend. Got all the supplies in and some new tools that I was playing with last night (circle jig, new router bits). Got a tube of #16 as well, my #4 was damaged durring shipping (got a gooey wet package) so have to reorder. Don't know of anyplace in the area that has it so the #16 will have to work.
Try Laird Plastics in Chicago

Quote:
1. I have a 6" OD acrylic tube with 1/8" walls that is 18" long. Planning on using this with some 1/4" acrylic ends. Is the 1/8" thick tube too thin for a reactor?
Nope I personally prefer thicker walls for more gluing surface

Quote:
2. Next, I am planning on having a flat plate as a cap with multiple holes to seal it to a gasket on the top and use nylon screws to secure it. I plan to tap the bottom plate (the one attached to the acrylic tube) and have the top plate holes untapped for the screws. The plates will be 8" diameter (~1" from tube wall) and 1/4" acrylic sheet. My question is this: how far appart must the holes be to not weaken the acrylic yet provide equal pressure on the two plates to seal it off?
About 8 screws, evenly place should do.

Quote:
3. I am planning on having tow PVC elbows (threaded) feeding the reactor. One at the top, one at the bottom (upflow design). Not having that large a tap to thread them, what is the best way to attach the PVC to the acrylic? Was thinking of drilling a hole slightly smaller than the threads and screwing it in forcing a thread pattern, then using some #16 to adhere it in place. Better ideas?
Just tap the acrylic with a pipe tap, available at any hardware store.

Quote:
4. I also have this idea. What about between the two plates, route a groove in them to seat a large O-ring (rubber or silicone) to seal it off? That would eliminate the large gasket problem. Anyone tried or thought of this?
This is the standard method

The groove idea is used by many people, but the groove provides no support to the tube. The tube, being round, is very strong as stress is distributed to a roughly infinite number of points. If you want to fill the groove with weld-on 40 then it's fine but don't count on it for "support", the tube won't need it.

HTH,
James


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Old 03/09/2007, 11:28 AM   #69
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Local place had weld-on 40 btw, but only in the 16 oz container. I'm trying to figure out how much of this to use and how to measure it. The "component b" container doesn't state how much is actually in the container.

I have have some 5 ml syringes I can use for measuring.


If I'm reading this correctly, I should be able to use 4 full syringes (20 ml) of the A plus 1ml of the B and that should be the correct mixture. Do you think this will be enough to do the trick? Should I double the amount just to make sure I have enough (was going to seal top and bottom just to make sure)? Any issues using the syringes to do the measuring for initial mixing?


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Old 03/09/2007, 01:16 PM   #70
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Shouldn't need that much, 5ml total should do the trick but prolly mix about double that to make it easier. BTW, there's no magic to the ratio, esp in small amounts, 10:1 to 20:1 should be good. FWIW, WO42 is the same stuff but in a 10:1 ratio.
I guess I'd say mix whatever you are most comfortable with, if mixing 20ml is easier, then it'll be fine - no worries

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Old 03/09/2007, 01:32 PM   #71
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I JUST completed mixing and applying. It's very easy to work with, and the syringe made it very easy to mix. That 16oz container will last me quite some time. A little goes a long way.

I applied it as I would caulk, at an angle, making a little 3/16th wide or so 45 degree angle along the entire seam. Hopefully some sinks in there, and what doesn't should make a nice boarder on the outside.

You're right about the smell though. I did it in my garage with the door open, and had to walk out a few times. VERY potent.

I'll wait about 15 min and see if it's hard enough to flip the unit over and do the other side (depending if the mixture hasn't hardened inside the syringe yet). If not, I'll mix up a small batch later.

Very cool stuff.


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Old 03/09/2007, 01:44 PM   #72
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If the first side has skinned enough to flip over, you can pretty much count on mixing another batch. Pot life is about 10 minutes or so.

James


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Old 03/09/2007, 01:58 PM   #73
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I think I'm ok. The first skinned over very well and I had already sucked what else I needed into the syringe. Only the tip of the syringe had skinned over

So, I got both sides. I'll give it a good 6 hours at least to dry, then test (non pressure) later tonight to see if it worked. The way it seals, as long as it doesn't shrink drastically during the process, I can't imagine it not working.

Once again, thanks.


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Old 03/09/2007, 06:46 PM   #74
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IN BUSINESS!!!!

Found my #4 at the local hobby shop.....on sale too!!! Got enough to last for about 5 years now!!!

Saw the taps at a local hardware store. Looked in 3 stores before I found them at an Ace. Cost $29 for the size I need!!! Think I can get them cheaper elsewhere??

Started cutting acrylic today!! My circle jig only goes up to 7-1/2" so I fashoned one out of a peice of plywood and mounted it to my router table. Took a few pics so I will post them later. Worked like a charm!! Got PERFECT 8" circle cuts for the top parts and the bottom. Edges nice and smooth too!

Then problems arose. When cutting out the inside of one of the top circle peices, the 1/4" router bit shattered and a peice of shrapnel imbeded itself in my shoulder!!! No major damage and nothing a little dermabond couldn't seal (yes I really am a doctor...surgical resident at that). The bad part was I am at a standstill until I get a new router bit. Good thing it is a Craftsman so I just bring it in and get a new one!!!

Well, back at it tomorrow and Sunday! I am taking plenty of pics so I will post a journal when done!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I am sure I will have more as time goes on!!!


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Old 03/09/2007, 06:51 PM   #75
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James (Acrylics) you are the man! I let it dry a bit, and it's currently hooked up to my system passing water No leaks at all this point. I'll probably shut it off tonight and run it again during the day tomorrow just to make sure it's all good. It's passing MAYBE 20 GPH at this point, just a little slow flow.


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