Sump/Fuge idea, setup, and questions. PICS!

Chef Reef · 12/03/2007, 11:00 AM

Ok. I think i haev designed what i want for a overflow setup for my new tank. The tank is going to be a 75 gallon mix reef tank. Im looking to get about a 30 gallon sump for it. I have a 30 gal tank i can use as a sump but i have a snake they is in need of a bigger home as he has outgrown his 10 gal tank. Heres where the fun starts. Once he's gone into the 30 gal tank, i will have 3 empty 10 gallon tanks just lying around. So this is what i have come up with for a Sump/Fuge combo. Please let me know if there is any problem in doing this that you can see. If there is a problem how can i fix it? Also What Return Pump should i use for this? The pipe is going to be 1 1/2 inch PVC pip.

Chef Reef · 12/03/2007, 11:02 AM

Edit*

Husky_1 · 12/03/2007, 12:01 PM

Hi Chef, A couple of things off the top of my head:
1. I do not see this in your drawing, but I assume you will have some sort f overflow for the durso pipes.

2. I would not combine the 2 overflows into a single pipe, since you have 2 overflows, I would suggest keeping them seperate down to the sump. This will help ensure that if one fails, the other will take over.

3. Also, if you are running 1" overflows then they say that they can safely handle 600gph of overflow (not forced water), make sure your return pump does not go over 600gph. That being said, you may only want one return at 600gph, 300 per side will feel like a trickle IMO.

4. Keep in mind that some people think that live rock in the sump is a waste since you will not be able to put this back into the main display. If you have enough LR in the display, this may just be added cost and a detritus trap.

5. No phosban/UV?

6. Most people advocate an external return pump because of the heat issues.

7. Make sure that you leave enough space in your sump(s) so that if your tank looses power there is enough room to hold the back-siphoned water.

8. I dont have personal experience with drilling 10g tanks, but I hear they tend to shatter.

Chef Reef · 12/03/2007, 10:32 PM

thanks for the imput husky, here are some answers to your questions.

1.) iv been told they are not needed that it would be fine like this, but before i was told they were not needed i was going to put some overflows on. i still might do that haven't completely decided yet.

2.) i will change the design a little and make it two.

3.) Is there a pump you recomend?

4.) hmm i never thought about the detritus problem, would you suggest adding a powerhead in there or just not put em in there. im leaning more towards taking them out.

5.) Havent decided where to put these yet, as well as a chiller. any ideas?

6.) what about the heat issues? heating the water or the glass?

7.)

check.

8.) We'll find out :/ hope i can get lucky and get 3 of em drilled.

ReefWreak · 12/03/2007, 10:41 PM

Always remember that check valves will clog. Mr. Murphy wins on that front.

Happened to me this weekend when I shut off my main pump for some maintenance and waterchanges. Matt and I were chilling and I noticed how high the sump water level was, because I'm always very cautions because there is a crack in the sump as it is. I saw that my checkvalve was clogged with algae from the refuge light. I had to raise the outlets out of the water a ton to make sure that they wouldn't suck out more water from the display.

Make everything possible as foolproof as possible.

Chef Reef · 12/03/2007, 10:45 PM

Chef Reef · 12/03/2007, 11:00 PM

sigh* i cant get the image larger. i keep resizing it and it keeps posting the same.. :/ you get the idea though, just have to get closer to the screen to see the writing.

heh i think there is no such thing as foolproof in this hobby :P but i will try.

do you see any problems with the water floeing from one tank to the next in the overflows?

Husky_1 · 12/04/2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

1.) iv been told they are not needed that it would be fine like this, but before i was told they were not needed i was going to put some overflows on. i still might do that haven't completely decided yet.

I assume that you will be drilling the glass. Keep in mind that there is a minimum recommended distance from the edge of the glass. Its been a while since I researched this but I think the recommended distance is the diameter of the hole. This means for a 1" overflow, you have a hole that is about 1.75" (I cannot remember exactly) so now you have to have the edge of the whole 1.75" down in the tank. You water level will then be pretty low, unless of course the durso is pointed up.

Quote:

3.) Is there a pump you recommend?

Everyone recommends different things, and it depends on your budget. Me personally, I like the ocean runner pumps, the 2500 fits right into the 600gph at a good price. There are definitely more expensive solution though. BTW, mine is ran internally right now, this is against most peoples recommendations.

Quote:

4.) hmm i never thought about the detritus problem, would you suggest adding a powerhead in there or just not put em in there. im leaning more towards taking them out.

I do not keep rocks in my sump, but I think you should do more research on this and come to a conclusion that you see best, I was just giving you one point of view.

Quote:

5.) Havent decided where to put these yet, as well as a chiller. any ideas?

I have my phosban hanging on the side of the fuge section of my sump, and my UV is hanging on the side of the baffles section. Both are plumbed together serially and run off of a single MJ 400. I should really take some more pictures.

Quote:

6.) what about the heat issues? heating the water or the glass?

Additional heat into the water, and less room for water capacity. Personally mine is in sump, but that is because I have space constraints underneath my corner tank.

Quote:

8.) We'll find out :/ hope i can get lucky and get 3 of em drilled.

Chef Reef · 12/04/2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

I assume that you will be drilling the glass. Keep in mind that there is a minimum recommended distance from the edge of the glass. Its been a while since I researched this but I think the recommended distance is the diameter of the hole. This means for a 1" overflow, you have a hole that is about 1.75" (I cannot remember exactly) so now you have to have the edge of the whole 1.75" down in the tank. You water level will then be pretty low, unless of course the durso is pointed up.

good point, i completely didnt think about the water level. so i guess ill just build some overflow boxes instead. ill re draw the tank with the drilled holes lower to the bottom, and put some boxes that go to the top just like a RR tank.

as far as the overall design of the sump setup does this look like it will work?

Lacy · 12/04/2007, 10:14 AM

Husky
You mentioned :

3. Also, if you are running 1" overflows then they say that they can safely handle 600gph of overflow (not forced water), make sure your return pump does not go over 600gph. That being said, you may only want one return at 600gph, 300 per side will feel like a trickle IMO.

600 GPH should per side (600 GPH volume requires a 1.01 return line), so the two 1" lines can handle 1200 GPH (the calculator only figures for one line, if you type in 1200 GPH it will show only 1.43" line required, but forget that since you are restricted by the smallest opening in your line, usually the bulkhead).

I am currently running 1080 GPH through two 1" corner returns with no problem whatsoever (180 all-glass corner overflow).

Ding2daDong · 12/04/2007, 10:34 AM

Drop the extra $4 and get 1 big sump. Not 3 little ones, that will be a huge pain. Especially to drill all of them and get bulkheads for all of them, controlling the water level and actually making the sump work will be your biggest problem with all of those little tanks.

Just buy a 30g breeder and get a few baffles.

-Matthew

Chef Reef · 12/04/2007, 10:41 AM

i already have the 3 10 gals. thats why i was doing this. i kinda liked being able to seperate everything to.

REDDAWG43 · 12/04/2007, 10:54 AM

I agree with Matt cause Your weakest points will also be the bulkheads....if one tank is not PERFECTLY alinged (sp) with the next one it will create a presure point on the tank glass....
10g tanks have very thin glass.
Not worth it at all!!!!!!

Ding2daDong · 12/04/2007, 11:42 AM

Sell the three little tanks and just get one big one. Okay so you want to separate the sump for whatever reason and you already have the tanks. Okay then you probably want to put unions on each bulkhead so later when you move it you won't have to move all three tanks at once. Also take into consideration that the flow through the sump will be really slow because of how far the water has to travel each way that you will need to suppliment the low flow with a powerhead. Since you have 3 tanks you will need 3 powerheads to stir up the detritus and keep the refugium flowing.

Then you have the problems with how high the sump level can be with the bulkheads. Lets say you want 2" bulkheads so you don't have problems with the flow through the sump. That means you will need 3" holes for the bulkheads. The bulkhead has a lip that takes up another inch or so, so now you are starting your sump at 4" less than the height of the tank. So now your sump height is 8". Take into consideration that you might have baffles then your average sump water height will be 6". Now subtract the live rock and other misc items that take up mass, and you are probably going to have a sump less then 15g total.

Sorry for the rant.

What skimmer do you plan on using?

-Matthew

Husky_1 · 12/04/2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lacy
Husky
You mentioned :

3. Also, if you are running 1" overflows then they say that they can safely handle 600gph of overflow (not forced water), make sure your return pump does not go over 600gph. That being said, you may only want one return at 600gph, 300 per side will feel like a trickle IMO.

600 GPH should per side (600 GPH volume requires a 1.01 return line), so the two 1" lines can handle 1200 GPH (the calculator only figures for one line, if you type in 1200 GPH it will show only 1.43" line required, but forget that since you are restricted by the smallest opening in your line, usually the bulkhead).

I am currently running 1080 GPH through two 1" corner returns with no problem whatsoever (180 all-glass corner overflow).

Yes, I agree that each overflow can handle 600gph. I mentioned previously that each overflow should be plumbed separately that way if one fails (gets clogged), the other can pick up the slack. I should have been more clear and stated that I think you should plan for disasters, so if one of the overflows gets backedup, then the other can still handle the flow of the sump, thus only having 600pgh.

In his case, i do not think he needs more that 600gph since this is 20x through the sump (30g sump).

On a side note/ My tank only has one right now, since I used my AGA overflow as designed with the 1 hole for overflow and the other for return. However this bothers me so I think i will be converting my AGA return into the other overflow and then having the return come over the back. I am not comfortable with one overflow.

Husky_1 · 12/04/2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REDDAWG43
I agree with Matt cause Your weakest points will also be the bulkheads....if one tank is not PERFECTLY alinged (sp) with the next one it will create a presure point on the tank glass....
10g tanks have very thin glass.
Not worth it at all!!!!!!

I agree with using one sump as well. I think when designing a system you need to have as little points of failure as possible. Plus, considering how much other money is being spent, is the increased risk of loosing all your live stock worth the price of a used 30l tank and some cut glass?

That being said, I do think he could get away with using spa flex, or another type of flexible hose to circumvent the stress on the BH issue.

Chef Reef · 12/04/2007, 12:22 PM

thanks for the coments, thats why i posted to see if this would work. so i guess i will go with a 30 gal sump that i'll just have to go buy.

DRboy14 · 12/04/2007, 06:09 PM

i have one if you like is bran new never use

coralfragger101 · 12/04/2007, 07:29 PM

Chef,

Although I agree with the majority that I would scrap the idea of 3 - 10 gal sumps tied together, I just wanted to let you know that the idea does work. The expense of just the bulkheads that you would need would make it cheaper to buy another tank and divide it with baffles.

My current sump is 2 - 30 gal tanks tied together with a 1.5" PVC. In hindsight I wish I would have used 2" PVC to connect them. I do get adequate flow through them and very little detritus buildup. Original idea was basically a zonal idea with one sump being filled with inhabitants that would remove big particulate matter and the second sump being a cryptic area for fine particulate matter evacuation. The cryptic area is flourishing with cryptic sponges and is doing quite well. I simply haven't stocked the first sump yet with big filter feeders. I've still been relying on a skimmer as the main workhorse.

Never be afraid to think outside the box.

Chef Reef · 12/06/2007, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRboy14
i have one if you like is brand new never use

could be interested, how large and what do you want for it?

Thanks coralfragger. was trying to find a different way of setting up a sump. reason i was trying this method was becuase i saw on guy with a 1100 gal tank with his sump divided into 3 sections like this. it was 3 - 100 gal rubbermaids, one with his filtration the other filled with LR and the other a fuge. i was thinking of the same idea just scaled down. his setup was pretty nice as well.

12/03/2007, 11:00 AM	#1
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	Sump/Fuge idea, setup, and questions. PICS! Ok. I think i haev designed what i want for a overflow setup for my new tank. The tank is going to be a 75 gallon mix reef tank. Im looking to get about a 30 gallon sump for it. I have a 30 gal tank i can use as a sump but i have a snake they is in need of a bigger home as he has outgrown his 10 gal tank. Heres where the fun starts. Once he's gone into the 30 gal tank, i will have 3 empty 10 gallon tanks just lying around. So this is what i have come up with for a Sump/Fuge combo. Please let me know if there is any problem in doing this that you can see. If there is a problem how can i fix it? Also What Return Pump should i use for this? The pipe is going to be 1 1/2 inch PVC pip.

12/03/2007, 11:02 AM	#2
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	Larger image. Edit*

12/03/2007, 10:45 PM	#6
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	Larger image. Last edited by Chef Reef; 12/03/2007 at 10:54 PM.

12/04/2007, 10:54 AM	#13
REDDAWG43 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 2,750	I agree with Matt cause Your weakest points will also be the bulkheads....if one tank is not PERFECTLY alinged (sp) with the next one it will create a presure point on the tank glass.... 10g tanks have very thin glass. Not worth it at all!!!!!! __________________ Love my Biocube!!! Current Tank Info: Biocube 29g

12/04/2007, 07:29 PM	#19
coralfragger101 Gone Postal Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 5,519	Chef, Although I agree with the majority that I would scrap the idea of 3 - 10 gal sumps tied together, I just wanted to let you know that the idea does work. The expense of just the bulkheads that you would need would make it cheaper to buy another tank and divide it with baffles. My current sump is 2 - 30 gal tanks tied together with a 1.5" PVC. In hindsight I wish I would have used 2" PVC to connect them. I do get adequate flow through them and very little detritus buildup. Original idea was basically a zonal idea with one sump being filled with inhabitants that would remove big particulate matter and the second sump being a cryptic area for fine particulate matter evacuation. The cryptic area is flourishing with cryptic sponges and is doing quite well. I simply haven't stocked the first sump yet with big filter feeders. I've still been relying on a skimmer as the main workhorse. Never be afraid to think outside the box. __________________ Views expressed by this person are not neccessarily the views of any other person and may never be. Apology extended to any member who takes offense to any post. Offense is not meant nor intended. Current Tank Info: NONE - Sold - Can't afford it right now!

12/03/2007, 12:01 PM	#3
Husky_1 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: South FL Posts: 1,549	Hi Chef, A couple of things off the top of my head: 1. I do not see this in your drawing, but I assume you will have some sort f overflow for the durso pipes. 2. I would not combine the 2 overflows into a single pipe, since you have 2 overflows, I would suggest keeping them seperate down to the sump. This will help ensure that if one fails, the other will take over. 3. Also, if you are running 1" overflows then they say that they can safely handle 600gph of overflow (not forced water), make sure your return pump does not go over 600gph. That being said, you may only want one return at 600gph, 300 per side will feel like a trickle IMO. 4. Keep in mind that some people think that live rock in the sump is a waste since you will not be able to put this back into the main display. If you have enough LR in the display, this may just be added cost and a detritus trap. 5. No phosban/UV? 6. Most people advocate an external return pump because of the heat issues. 7. Make sure that you leave enough space in your sump(s) so that if your tank looses power there is enough room to hold the back-siphoned water. 8. I dont have personal experience with drilling 10g tanks, but I hear they tend to shatter.

12/03/2007, 10:32 PM	#4
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	thanks for the imput husky, here are some answers to your questions. 1.) iv been told they are not needed that it would be fine like this, but before i was told they were not needed i was going to put some overflows on. i still might do that haven't completely decided yet. 2.) i will change the design a little and make it two. 3.) Is there a pump you recomend? 4.) hmm i never thought about the detritus problem, would you suggest adding a powerhead in there or just not put em in there. im leaning more towards taking them out. 5.) Havent decided where to put these yet, as well as a chiller. any ideas? 6.) what about the heat issues? heating the water or the glass? 7.) check. 8.) We'll find out :/ hope i can get lucky and get 3 of em drilled.

12/03/2007, 10:41 PM	#5
ReefWreak Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 7,240	Always remember that check valves will clog. Mr. Murphy wins on that front. Happened to me this weekend when I shut off my main pump for some maintenance and waterchanges. Matt and I were chilling and I noticed how high the sump water level was, because I'm always very cautions because there is a crack in the sump as it is. I saw that my checkvalve was clogged with algae from the refuge light. I had to raise the outlets out of the water a ton to make sure that they wouldn't suck out more water from the display. Make everything possible as foolproof as possible.

12/03/2007, 11:00 PM	#7
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	sigh* i cant get the image larger. i keep resizing it and it keeps posting the same.. :/ you get the idea though, just have to get closer to the screen to see the writing. heh i think there is no such thing as foolproof in this hobby :P but i will try. do you see any problems with the water floeing from one tank to the next in the overflows?

12/04/2007, 10:14 AM	#10
Lacy Ex FMAS bod member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 2,666	Husky You mentioned : 3. Also, if you are running 1" overflows then they say that they can safely handle 600gph of overflow (not forced water), make sure your return pump does not go over 600gph. That being said, you may only want one return at 600gph, 300 per side will feel like a trickle IMO. 600 GPH should per side (600 GPH volume requires a 1.01 return line), so the two 1" lines can handle 1200 GPH (the calculator only figures for one line, if you type in 1200 GPH it will show only 1.43" line required, but forget that since you are restricted by the smallest opening in your line, usually the bulkhead). I am currently running 1080 GPH through two 1" corner returns with no problem whatsoever (180 all-glass corner overflow).

12/04/2007, 10:34 AM	#11
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,719	Drop the extra $4 and get 1 big sump. Not 3 little ones, that will be a huge pain. Especially to drill all of them and get bulkheads for all of them, controlling the water level and actually making the sump work will be your biggest problem with all of those little tanks. Just buy a 30g breeder and get a few baffles. -Matthew

12/04/2007, 10:41 AM	#12
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	i already have the 3 10 gals. thats why i was doing this. i kinda liked being able to seperate everything to.

12/04/2007, 11:42 AM	#14
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,719	Sell the three little tanks and just get one big one. Okay so you want to separate the sump for whatever reason and you already have the tanks. Okay then you probably want to put unions on each bulkhead so later when you move it you won't have to move all three tanks at once. Also take into consideration that the flow through the sump will be really slow because of how far the water has to travel each way that you will need to suppliment the low flow with a powerhead. Since you have 3 tanks you will need 3 powerheads to stir up the detritus and keep the refugium flowing. Then you have the problems with how high the sump level can be with the bulkheads. Lets say you want 2" bulkheads so you don't have problems with the flow through the sump. That means you will need 3" holes for the bulkheads. The bulkhead has a lip that takes up another inch or so, so now you are starting your sump at 4" less than the height of the tank. So now your sump height is 8". Take into consideration that you might have baffles then your average sump water height will be 6". Now subtract the live rock and other misc items that take up mass, and you are probably going to have a sump less then 15g total. Sorry for the rant. What skimmer do you plan on using? -Matthew

12/04/2007, 12:22 PM	#17
Chef Reef Moved On Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hallandale, FL Posts: 2,189	thanks for the coments, thats why i posted to see if this would work. so i guess i will go with a 30 gal sump that i'll just have to go buy.

12/04/2007, 06:09 PM	#18
DRboy14 Moved On Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: new york Posts: 23	i have one if you like is bran new never use