recipe 1 dosing issues

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 01:26 PM

from what I have read....the instructions say to dose both parts of Randy's recipe in equal amounts...but this doesn't necessarily give proper values....what i mean is this....
Sunday alk is 3.3meq/l....I want 3.54....so dose 1.6oz (example, but close!)
calc. is 410ppm and I want 430 so dose 5 oz....

next day alk is about the same dosage but calcium needs more...
next day each is about 2.3-2.6 ounces...
next day alk is just over an ounce and calc is a lot more...

so how is it that you are supposed to dose equal amounts when the tests give you a reading, and you put that into the reef calculator and it tells you how much to dose to get the levels you want....why am i not dosing the same amount every day to get the constant levels that i want?! confused? lol....I am!

Nanz · 01/15/2008, 02:19 PM

Bump.. Im in the same boat

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanz
Bump.. Im in the same boat

phew!

bertoni · 01/15/2008, 02:36 PM

There's enough noise in the test kits that I wouldn't assume the differences mean anything for calcium. I'd just dose equal amounts and see where the tank was at the end of a week or so.

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 02:48 PM

i have done that in the past and my calcium ended up in the low 300's so i don't want to go that route again.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 02:49 PM

I agree. Resist the temptation to jigger the dosing every day or two. Wait for there to be a substantial need for a correction before doing different doses. That is, wait for calcium to get too high or too low for comfort, and base the day to day doses for both on the alkalinity needs, since it always fluctuates much faster than calcium.

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 05:20 PM

ok...so if I need to dose 2.6 ounces of alk daily to maintain the 3.54meq/l that I like, then I should dose 2.6 ounces of calcium too? Do this for how long? like a week? Won't my calcium drop into the 300's by doing this? It seems to be consumer at a higher rate than the alk is being consumed...at least according to the test results....ahhhh...still confused!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 05:28 PM

Yes, keep the doses the same until calcium rises too high (say, over 450 ppm or so) or too low (under 380 ppm or so), or whatever target levels you prefer. If you want, boost calcium all at once to a higher level, then maintain equal dosing. It is very unlikely that calcium will drop much, unless you do water changes with a low calcium and mix.

That is the beauty of the two part system: the doses should match if you made it correctly. Folks that try to overcorrect things often end up in disaster. I know it is hard to believe, but that was the big driving force behind two part systems. It is very hard to screw things up by sticking with equal dosing. it is very easy to screw things up with totally independent dosing.

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 05:33 PM

ok...so tomorrow I will test the water...whatever is needed to bring the alk to 3.54 is what I will dose for both...I will wait a week and test again...my guess is that the alk will most likely be ok, but the calcium will be waaaay low. So then what? one big dose of calcium and then continue with the equal dosing? I'm feeling very thick right now...I swear I'm not!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 05:39 PM

Most folks need to dose a lot more than once a week, unless the demand is very light. Many folks with two parts dose daily.

What's in the tank?

FWIW, there is NO WAY that calcium can drop much if alkalinity does not, aside from, as I mentioned, water changes with a low calcium mix, or if you are adding other alkalinity supplements, like buffers.

Corals and coralline algae, and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate use 18-20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity. There are no other substantial sinks for calcium. Thousands of folks have done this before you and found that to be true.

Check out this article:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 05:41 PM

What do you use for top off water? Some tap water has a lot of alkalinity in it.

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 06:00 PM

I use RO water...

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 06:10 PM

Ok, then let's try it and see what happens.

But this is an SPS tank? I can't see how 1 dose per week is adequate for alkalinity. How low does it get after a week? As it drops below 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH), coral calcification will stop.

Maybe your alk kit is way off somehow.

katpurdy · 01/15/2008, 06:22 PM

oh sorry...I dose daily...there are about 36 different sps in the tank right now so the need is quite high for a 3 foot tank! I will dose the alk amount needed and equal it with the calcium and go from there...i use NSW that I "buffer" with your recipe before it goes in the tank for water changes.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/15/2008, 08:21 PM

I will dose the alk amount needed and equal it with the calcium and go from there

Sounds good. Good luck.

katpurdy · 01/16/2008, 08:50 AM

i'll keep you posted cause the reef god knows I'm gonna need more help!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/16/2008, 10:49 AM

We'll be here.

katpurdy · 01/23/2008, 12:47 PM

Ok Randy...help time!! I have been dosing the 2 part in equal amounts according the "needs" of the alk....that has been about 2.8oz. per day. This was the amount needed to maintain the 3.54meq/l that i like. So the calcium part has been added in the same amount...tested my water today...the alk needs 3.2oz to get up to the 3.54meq/l that I like....and get this...the calcium needs 11.1OZ!!!! to be a balanced 430ppm...so clearly the 2.6-3 oz doses isn't enough to maintain the calcium, but it is to maintain the alk...so what should I do? my calcium today is 385ppm. and my alk was 2.86 meq/l

bertoni · 01/23/2008, 01:47 PM

I'd ignore the "balanced" concept for these two parameters. It's not very useful, in my opinion. The two-part is likely working fairly well, although it's common for calcium to drift down a bit, since some processes in the tank consume alkalinity, but not calcium:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

Most likely, the tank didn't start in a "balanced" configuration. If you want to tweak the calcium up a bit, adding more of the calcium part is fine on a once-a-month or so basis.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/23/2008, 02:40 PM

I agree. Just boost the calcium to where you want it all at once, and then check again after a while and readjust as necessary.

Nanz · 01/24/2008, 07:37 AM

I think I have the oposite problem.. I used the same scheme with dosing 2-part. First I set my params to 9dKh, 420 Ca. Then after dosing 30ml of each per day for 3 days my params are 7.5 dKH and 380 Ca. So I double the dosing to 60 ml day after I set the tank back to 9dKH and 420 Ca. After 3 more days of dosing 60 ml of each my Alk is 7.2 dKH and my Ca is 410ppm. My alk keeps dropping and there doesnt seem a way to keep it balanced. So I dosed Alk up to 9dKH last night and I plan to dose 80 ml of each per day. Am I doing this correctly?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/24/2008, 08:02 AM

Forget what is happening to calcium for a while, and just dose enough of both part equally each day to meet the alkalinity demand. What happens then?

Nanz · 01/24/2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Forget what is happening to calcium for a while, and just dose enough of both part equally each day to meet the alkalinity demand. What happens then?

Tonight I will test before I dose and will use the reef calc to find out how much Alk to dose. I will then dose that and an equal amount of Ca. Thanks for the quick response Randy

I'll update you in a few days.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/24/2008, 09:11 AM

Sounds like a good plan.

Good luck .

Maudsley · 01/25/2008, 06:38 AM

I'm no expert but a quick question....is your Mg in parameters?

01/15/2008, 01:26 PM	#1
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	recipe 1 dosing issues from what I have read....the instructions say to dose both parts of Randy's recipe in equal amounts...but this doesn't necessarily give proper values....what i mean is this.... Sunday alk is 3.3meq/l....I want 3.54....so dose 1.6oz (example, but close!) calc. is 410ppm and I want 430 so dose 5 oz.... next day alk is about the same dosage but calcium needs more... next day each is about 2.3-2.6 ounces... next day alk is just over an ounce and calc is a lot more... so how is it that you are supposed to dose equal amounts when the tests give you a reading, and you put that into the reef calculator and it tells you how much to dose to get the levels you want....why am i not dosing the same amount every day to get the constant levels that i want?! confused? lol....I am! __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 02:19 PM	#2
Nanz Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,389	Bump.. Im in the same boat __________________ S.G. = 1.025, Temp = 78.5, pH = 8.00 Ca = 550 ppm, Alk = 176 ppm (9.85 dKH), Mg = 1300 ppm NO3 = 0.97 ppm, PO4 = 0.07 ppm Nuvo 30, Razor Nano LED, Tunze ATO, Tunze 9004 skimmer, Vortec mp10,

01/15/2008, 02:36 PM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	There's enough noise in the test kits that I wouldn't assume the differences mean anything for calcium. I'd just dose equal amounts and see where the tank was at the end of a week or so. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/15/2008, 02:48 PM	#5
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	i have done that in the past and my calcium ended up in the low 300's so i don't want to go that route again. __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 02:49 PM	#6
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I agree. Resist the temptation to jigger the dosing every day or two. Wait for there to be a substantial need for a correction before doing different doses. That is, wait for calcium to get too high or too low for comfort, and base the day to day doses for both on the alkalinity needs, since it always fluctuates much faster than calcium. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/15/2008, 05:20 PM	#7
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	ok...so if I need to dose 2.6 ounces of alk daily to maintain the 3.54meq/l that I like, then I should dose 2.6 ounces of calcium too? Do this for how long? like a week? Won't my calcium drop into the 300's by doing this? It seems to be consumer at a higher rate than the alk is being consumed...at least according to the test results....ahhhh...still confused! __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 05:28 PM	#8
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Yes, keep the doses the same until calcium rises too high (say, over 450 ppm or so) or too low (under 380 ppm or so), or whatever target levels you prefer. If you want, boost calcium all at once to a higher level, then maintain equal dosing. It is very unlikely that calcium will drop much, unless you do water changes with a low calcium and mix. That is the beauty of the two part system: the doses should match if you made it correctly. Folks that try to overcorrect things often end up in disaster. I know it is hard to believe, but that was the big driving force behind two part systems. It is very hard to screw things up by sticking with equal dosing. it is very easy to screw things up with totally independent dosing. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/15/2008, 05:33 PM	#9
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	ok...so tomorrow I will test the water...whatever is needed to bring the alk to 3.54 is what I will dose for both...I will wait a week and test again...my guess is that the alk will most likely be ok, but the calcium will be waaaay low. So then what? one big dose of calcium and then continue with the equal dosing? I'm feeling very thick right now...I swear I'm not! __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 05:39 PM	#10
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Most folks need to dose a lot more than once a week, unless the demand is very light. Many folks with two parts dose daily. What's in the tank? FWIW, there is NO WAY that calcium can drop much if alkalinity does not, aside from, as I mentioned, water changes with a low calcium mix, or if you are adding other alkalinity supplements, like buffers. Corals and coralline algae, and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate use 18-20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity. There are no other substantial sinks for calcium. Thousands of folks have done this before you and found that to be true. Check out this article: When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/15/2008, 05:41 PM	#11
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	What do you use for top off water? Some tap water has a lot of alkalinity in it. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/15/2008, 06:00 PM	#12
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	I use RO water... __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 06:10 PM	#13
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Ok, then let's try it and see what happens. But this is an SPS tank? I can't see how 1 dose per week is adequate for alkalinity. How low does it get after a week? As it drops below 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH), coral calcification will stop. Maybe your alk kit is way off somehow. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/15/2008, 06:22 PM	#14
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	oh sorry...I dose daily...there are about 36 different sps in the tank right now so the need is quite high for a 3 foot tank! I will dose the alk amount needed and equal it with the calcium and go from there...i use NSW that I "buffer" with your recipe before it goes in the tank for water changes. __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/15/2008, 08:21 PM	#15
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I will dose the alk amount needed and equal it with the calcium and go from there Sounds good. Good luck. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/16/2008, 08:50 AM	#16
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	i'll keep you posted cause the reef god knows I'm gonna need more help! __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/16/2008, 10:49 AM	#17
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	We'll be here. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/23/2008, 12:47 PM	#18
katpurdy Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Halifax,Nova Scotia Posts: 492	Ok Randy...help time!! I have been dosing the 2 part in equal amounts according the "needs" of the alk....that has been about 2.8oz. per day. This was the amount needed to maintain the 3.54meq/l that i like. So the calcium part has been added in the same amount...tested my water today...the alk needs 3.2oz to get up to the 3.54meq/l that I like....and get this...the calcium needs 11.1OZ!!!! to be a balanced 430ppm...so clearly the 2.6-3 oz doses isn't enough to maintain the calcium, but it is to maintain the alk...so what should I do? my calcium today is 385ppm. and my alk was 2.86 meq/l __________________ 55G tall mixed reef 30G sump,2x250W10K SPS+ 2 VHO super actinic,CsS220, 130FOWLR 60Gsump. 20g long with 10g sump mixed reef Current Tank Info: 55g tall sps dominant, 30g sump css220, 2x 250W xm10k MH plus 2x 96W VHO actinic 130g FOWLR, 60g sump

01/23/2008, 01:47 PM	#19
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I'd ignore the "balanced" concept for these two parameters. It's not very useful, in my opinion. The two-part is likely working fairly well, although it's common for calcium to drift down a bit, since some processes in the tank consume alkalinity, but not calcium: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm Most likely, the tank didn't start in a "balanced" configuration. If you want to tweak the calcium up a bit, adding more of the calcium part is fine on a once-a-month or so basis. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/23/2008, 02:40 PM	#20
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I agree. Just boost the calcium to where you want it all at once, and then check again after a while and readjust as necessary. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/24/2008, 07:37 AM	#21
Nanz Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,389	I think I have the oposite problem.. I used the same scheme with dosing 2-part. First I set my params to 9dKh, 420 Ca. Then after dosing 30ml of each per day for 3 days my params are 7.5 dKH and 380 Ca. So I double the dosing to 60 ml day after I set the tank back to 9dKH and 420 Ca. After 3 more days of dosing 60 ml of each my Alk is 7.2 dKH and my Ca is 410ppm. My alk keeps dropping and there doesnt seem a way to keep it balanced. So I dosed Alk up to 9dKH last night and I plan to dose 80 ml of each per day. Am I doing this correctly? __________________ S.G. = 1.025, Temp = 78.5, pH = 8.00 Ca = 550 ppm, Alk = 176 ppm (9.85 dKH), Mg = 1300 ppm NO3 = 0.97 ppm, PO4 = 0.07 ppm Nuvo 30, Razor Nano LED, Tunze ATO, Tunze 9004 skimmer, Vortec mp10,

01/24/2008, 08:02 AM	#22
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Forget what is happening to calcium for a while, and just dose enough of both part equally each day to meet the alkalinity demand. What happens then? __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/24/2008, 09:11 AM	#24
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Sounds like a good plan. Good luck . __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/25/2008, 06:38 AM	#25
Maudsley Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Kentucky Posts: 192	I'm no expert but a quick question....is your Mg in parameters?