So Much B-Ionic

emm0909 · 03/20/2008, 08:46 AM

I honestly can't believe how much B-Ionic I'm going through. I've only had a reef tank for six months and didn't start dosing until three weeks ago. I don't have a very large coral load on the tank. Only softies and very few LPS. It's a 75 gallon tank with abotu 20 gallons in the sump. I'm dosing about five times a week at the recommended 1cc/4 gallons just to keep up with the drop in calcium.

What do people do with SPS tanks. Honestly! Dump half a bottle in every day? I understand running reactors and what not but many don't. How much are they dosing?

Biocubist · 03/20/2008, 08:51 AM

I think most of the guys that have high Ca/Alk demands are using anything but B-ionic (premixed 2 part sol). Most will will get good with using limewater or calcium reactors. I use B-ionic also for my 30 gal tank, but I may start using limewater or that DIY 2 part sol by Randy.

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 08:53 AM

dont feel alone, I have a 30 gallon and let me tell ya its crazy how much I have to put in!

At this rate I will be broke in a month!

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 08:54 AM

biocubist, does randy sell it? How do I get it? he have a site?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 08:58 AM

Be careful to base the dosing of two part supplement on alkalinity, not calcium. Calcium can easily be driven down by water changes with a low calcium salt mix, and you do not want to use both parts of a two part additive to boost that back up.

Use alkalinity as the guide. Alkalinity responds much faster to over or under dosing than does calcium. If it is maintaining alkalinity, you are adding enough, and if calcium needs correction for other reasons, then correct it with a calcium only supplement.

All that said, 1 mL per 4 gallons is not an especially high dose, and coralline algae can be a big user of calcium and alkalinity.

At this rate I will be broke in a month!

That's why the DIY is very popular.

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

jbarone · 03/20/2008, 09:03 AM

I dose B-ionic as well and ran in to the same thing. I suggest you dose according to the alK Consumption and not Ca.

I was dosing 120ml of each part daily and now I dose only 50ml daily and I will reduce that amount soon. Give it two weeks and things will stabilize.

jbarone · 03/20/2008, 09:04 AM

Randy and I must have been typing at the same time. He is very correct and I learned from this from him.

emm0909 · 03/20/2008, 09:21 AM

As my calcium drops it seems like things are directly affected. Even though my alk seems fine. Should I really seperate the two part and only add calcium?

lastduke · 03/20/2008, 09:37 AM

I have above question too....coask it

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 09:50 AM

My calcium in 3 days went from 410-420ppm to today 350. At 11 pm eastern time last night, I added 10ml of calcium and 5ml of Alk.

This morning, my calcium was 350, and alk holding steady at 8.5.

I added an hour ago, 10ml of Alk and 50ml of Ca.
They now are at:
Ca = 400 now
Alk = 8.5 holding steady

Randy, a side question. I have some nice purple coraline algae BUT on the back wall of the tank, I am noticing the browninsh/reddish algae and a few of rocks have it also.

Can this be because of leaving lights on too much? Too much silicates (need another test kit!!) or Low Mg?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 10:08 AM

As my calcium drops it seems like things are directly affected. Even though my alk seems fine. Should I really seperate the two part and only add calcium?

If calcium is dropping and alkalinity is not, then yes, a two part is not the solution. Either boost the salt mix that you are using (which is likely the reason it is dropping, not through coral use, since alkalinity must also drop then) or by direct addition of calcium supplements to the tank.

My calcium in 3 days went from 410-420ppm to today 350. At 11 pm eastern time last night, I added 10ml of calcium and 5ml of Alk.

That can only happen from a water change, unless you are adding large amounts of buffers or other alkalinity supplements (not counting the two part).

The calcium drop, if done by organisms in the tank, would necessarily require a drop of 3 meq/L (8.4 dKH) of alkalinity.

Algae requires many things, but the best way to control it is by reducing available nutrients, not light. Not silicate since reddish isn't likely diatoms (probably cyanobacteria).

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 10:38 AM

Randy,

I havent performed a water change, the only thing I did was top-off using distilled water about 2 gallons. That was it!

The salt mix is a few years old, is that a no-no?

For the calcium supplements, should I try what you recommend, your 2 part or can you recommend one besides the b-ionic? Or is the 1 part of calcium b-ionic ok? That confuses me a little? Is b-ionic just a stabilizer and not a booster?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 11:13 AM

Old salt wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps there was testing error in the calcium value. It really cannot just drop on its own.

The calcium part of b-ionic is fine, but expensive. Any type of calcium chloride is also OK. Dowflake, Kent Turbo or Liquid Calcium, Warner, ESV, etc.

What I meant about B-ionic and any two part is the using both parts in equal amounts is not appropriate for boosting calcium by considerable amounts, because alkalinity would get too high.

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 11:25 AM

Hi Randy!

I swear!! Unless the wife is making water changes in the middle of the night!!!! LOL!! That i dont know about!!!

All I did was top-off 2 gallons. that is it!!! Now someone mentioned low Mg would cause problems for the Ca and possibly make it drop? Any validity to that?

I am using salifert and I am pretty sure it is working right because when I add a substantial amount, like 40-50ml in one day of the Ca and retest it, it is up for sure. the 10ml of Alk has been holding it steady at 8.5 but something is making me lose Ca and it seems like a good amount of it! I am using crystal sea marine mix for my salt!

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 11:26 AM

I will try to get down this photo thing and post some pics of everything in my tank!

Maybe that will help!

PS, do you make house calls??????? LOL!!!!!!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 11:32 AM

All I did was top-off 2 gallons. that is it!!! Now someone mentioned low Mg would cause problems for the Ca and possibly make it drop? Any validity to that?

All that does it accelerate the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, which requires the alkalinity to drop too. All ways of dropping calcium take out a lot of alkalinity.

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 12:12 PM

Randy,

Here are some photos. Maybe this can help if you get some time you can peek at them!

http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/l...ytradernation/

jbarone · 03/20/2008, 12:51 PM

daytrader,
May I suggest you get a second opinion on that Ca test kit. Take some water to a good LFS and let them test it. Also get a Mg test kit and test for that as well. I don't see any problem with maintaining equal doses of say 10ml/day until you have this info.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 01:00 PM

Here are some photos. Maybe this can help if you get some time you can peek at them!

OK. Probably not much demand for calcium or alkalinity there. No apparent cause for calcium problems, however, as long as you are not adding buffers to control pH.

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 01:07 PM

Jbarone, I will try that out and see.

Randy,

My Ph has always been stable. I do not add anything for Ph at all.
Its been a consistent 8.0-8.3

jbarone · 03/20/2008, 01:28 PM

daytrader,
While we're waiting:

What salt mix do you use?

What is the SG you mix new SW to?

What is the SG of the tank?

Do you test the new SW water for Alk and Ca before doing a water change?

How often do you do water changes?

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbarone
daytrader,
While we're waiting:

What salt mix do you use?

Crystal Sea

What is the SG you mix new SW to?
1.022-1.023

What is the SG of the tank?

1.022-1.023. When it evaps, I have seen it as high as 1.025-1.026.

Do you test the new SW water for Alk and Ca before doing a water change?

No, I have never performed a water change.

How often do you do water changes?

None yet. tank has been 3 weeks. I have topped off 2 times in 3 weeks. About 5 gallons total.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/20/2008, 01:58 PM

Then I expect that calcium difference was testing error. It is far more common than you'd think. Kits are just not that reliable. Don't overinterpret smallish individual changes. Just track it over time.

jbarone · 03/20/2008, 02:21 PM

I would suggest you develope some good habits at this point.

First raise your SG to 1.026. If your not using a refractometer I would strongly recommend getting one.

Then
Top off daily.
Consider a top off controller. SG is something that should have little or no fluctuation

Test regulary until you have a good feel for things.
Amonia
Nitrates
Alk
Ca
Mg

Do regular water changes
10-15gal every 2 weeks.
Make sure Alk, Ca, and Mg, and temp match the tank.

Take it very slow

and read read read. There is a ton of information at the top of this forum that Randy has provided us.

Log everything you do. You will see trends develop and this will help to figure out what may have thrown things out of wack.

Keep us posted

daytrader · 03/20/2008, 04:31 PM

Thanks everyone for helping me out! I will keep it updated and keep track and report back, thanks again!

03/20/2008, 08:46 AM	#1
emm0909 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 724	So Much B-Ionic I honestly can't believe how much B-Ionic I'm going through. I've only had a reef tank for six months and didn't start dosing until three weeks ago. I don't have a very large coral load on the tank. Only softies and very few LPS. It's a 75 gallon tank with abotu 20 gallons in the sump. I'm dosing about five times a week at the recommended 1cc/4 gallons just to keep up with the drop in calcium. What do people do with SPS tanks. Honestly! Dump half a bottle in every day? I understand running reactors and what not but many don't. How much are they dosing?

03/20/2008, 08:58 AM	#5
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	Be careful to base the dosing of two part supplement on alkalinity, not calcium. Calcium can easily be driven down by water changes with a low calcium salt mix, and you do not want to use both parts of a two part additive to boost that back up. Use alkalinity as the guide. Alkalinity responds much faster to over or under dosing than does calcium. If it is maintaining alkalinity, you are adding enough, and if calcium needs correction for other reasons, then correct it with a calcium only supplement. All that said, 1 mL per 4 gallons is not an especially high dose, and coralline algae can be a big user of calcium and alkalinity. At this rate I will be broke in a month! That's why the DIY is very popular. An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 03/20/2008 at 09:06 AM.

03/20/2008, 10:08 AM	#11
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	As my calcium drops it seems like things are directly affected. Even though my alk seems fine. Should I really seperate the two part and only add calcium? If calcium is dropping and alkalinity is not, then yes, a two part is not the solution. Either boost the salt mix that you are using (which is likely the reason it is dropping, not through coral use, since alkalinity must also drop then) or by direct addition of calcium supplements to the tank. My calcium in 3 days went from 410-420ppm to today 350. At 11 pm eastern time last night, I added 10ml of calcium and 5ml of Alk. That can only happen from a water change, unless you are adding large amounts of buffers or other alkalinity supplements (not counting the two part). The calcium drop, if done by organisms in the tank, would necessarily require a drop of 3 meq/L (8.4 dKH) of alkalinity. Algae requires many things, but the best way to control it is by reducing available nutrients, not light. Not silicate since reddish isn't likely diatoms (probably cyanobacteria). __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/20/2008, 11:13 AM	#13
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	Old salt wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps there was testing error in the calcium value. It really cannot just drop on its own. The calcium part of b-ionic is fine, but expensive. Any type of calcium chloride is also OK. Dowflake, Kent Turbo or Liquid Calcium, Warner, ESV, etc. What I meant about B-ionic and any two part is the using both parts in equal amounts is not appropriate for boosting calcium by considerable amounts, because alkalinity would get too high. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/20/2008, 11:32 AM	#16
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	All I did was top-off 2 gallons. that is it!!! Now someone mentioned low Mg would cause problems for the Ca and possibly make it drop? Any validity to that? All that does it accelerate the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, which requires the alkalinity to drop too. All ways of dropping calcium take out a lot of alkalinity. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/20/2008, 08:51 AM	#2
Biocubist Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: USA Posts: 114	I think most of the guys that have high Ca/Alk demands are using anything but B-ionic (premixed 2 part sol). Most will will get good with using limewater or calcium reactors. I use B-ionic also for my 30 gal tank, but I may start using limewater or that DIY 2 part sol by Randy.

03/20/2008, 08:53 AM	#3
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	dont feel alone, I have a 30 gallon and let me tell ya its crazy how much I have to put in! At this rate I will be broke in a month!

03/20/2008, 08:54 AM	#4
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	biocubist, does randy sell it? How do I get it? he have a site?

03/20/2008, 09:03 AM	#6
jbarone Government Sponge Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Troy, IL Posts: 960	I dose B-ionic as well and ran in to the same thing. I suggest you dose according to the alK Consumption and not Ca. I was dosing 120ml of each part daily and now I dose only 50ml daily and I will reduce that amount soon. Give it two weeks and things will stabilize.

03/20/2008, 09:04 AM	#7
jbarone Government Sponge Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Troy, IL Posts: 960	Randy and I must have been typing at the same time. He is very correct and I learned from this from him.

03/20/2008, 09:21 AM	#8
emm0909 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 724	As my calcium drops it seems like things are directly affected. Even though my alk seems fine. Should I really seperate the two part and only add calcium?

03/20/2008, 09:37 AM	#9
lastduke Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland,Oregon Posts: 1,267	I have above question too....coask it

03/20/2008, 09:50 AM	#10
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	My calcium in 3 days went from 410-420ppm to today 350. At 11 pm eastern time last night, I added 10ml of calcium and 5ml of Alk. This morning, my calcium was 350, and alk holding steady at 8.5. I added an hour ago, 10ml of Alk and 50ml of Ca. They now are at: Ca = 400 now Alk = 8.5 holding steady Randy, a side question. I have some nice purple coraline algae BUT on the back wall of the tank, I am noticing the browninsh/reddish algae and a few of rocks have it also. Can this be because of leaving lights on too much? Too much silicates (need another test kit!!) or Low Mg?

03/20/2008, 10:38 AM	#12
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	Randy, I havent performed a water change, the only thing I did was top-off using distilled water about 2 gallons. That was it! The salt mix is a few years old, is that a no-no? For the calcium supplements, should I try what you recommend, your 2 part or can you recommend one besides the b-ionic? Or is the 1 part of calcium b-ionic ok? That confuses me a little? Is b-ionic just a stabilizer and not a booster?

03/20/2008, 11:25 AM	#14
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	Hi Randy! I swear!! Unless the wife is making water changes in the middle of the night!!!! LOL!! That i dont know about!!! All I did was top-off 2 gallons. that is it!!! Now someone mentioned low Mg would cause problems for the Ca and possibly make it drop? Any validity to that? I am using salifert and I am pretty sure it is working right because when I add a substantial amount, like 40-50ml in one day of the Ca and retest it, it is up for sure. the 10ml of Alk has been holding it steady at 8.5 but something is making me lose Ca and it seems like a good amount of it! I am using crystal sea marine mix for my salt!

03/20/2008, 11:26 AM	#15
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	I will try to get down this photo thing and post some pics of everything in my tank! Maybe that will help! PS, do you make house calls??????? LOL!!!!!!

03/20/2008, 12:12 PM	#17
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	Randy, Here are some photos. Maybe this can help if you get some time you can peek at them! http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/l...ytradernation/

03/20/2008, 12:51 PM	#18
jbarone Government Sponge Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Troy, IL Posts: 960	daytrader, May I suggest you get a second opinion on that Ca test kit. Take some water to a good LFS and let them test it. Also get a Mg test kit and test for that as well. I don't see any problem with maintaining equal doses of say 10ml/day until you have this info.

03/20/2008, 01:00 PM	#19
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	Here are some photos. Maybe this can help if you get some time you can peek at them! OK. Probably not much demand for calcium or alkalinity there. No apparent cause for calcium problems, however, as long as you are not adding buffers to control pH. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/20/2008, 01:07 PM	#20
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	Jbarone, I will try that out and see. Randy, My Ph has always been stable. I do not add anything for Ph at all. Its been a consistent 8.0-8.3

03/20/2008, 01:28 PM	#21
jbarone Government Sponge Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Troy, IL Posts: 960	daytrader, While we're waiting: What salt mix do you use? What is the SG you mix new SW to? What is the SG of the tank? Do you test the new SW water for Alk and Ca before doing a water change? How often do you do water changes?

03/20/2008, 01:58 PM	#23
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	Then I expect that calcium difference was testing error. It is far more common than you'd think. Kits are just not that reliable. Don't overinterpret smallish individual changes. Just track it over time. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/20/2008, 02:21 PM	#24
jbarone Government Sponge Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Troy, IL Posts: 960	I would suggest you develope some good habits at this point. First raise your SG to 1.026. If your not using a refractometer I would strongly recommend getting one. Then Top off daily. Consider a top off controller. SG is something that should have little or no fluctuation Test regulary until you have a good feel for things. Amonia Nitrates Alk Ca Mg Do regular water changes 10-15gal every 2 weeks. Make sure Alk, Ca, and Mg, and temp match the tank. Take it very slow and read read read. There is a ton of information at the top of this forum that Randy has provided us. Log everything you do. You will see trends develop and this will help to figure out what may have thrown things out of wack. Keep us posted

03/20/2008, 04:31 PM	#25
daytrader Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 66	Thanks everyone for helping me out! I will keep it updated and keep track and report back, thanks again!