Downsizing

[Marsha]

Well I went and did it. I took down the 72 gallon bow front and purchased a Nano HQI. I have it up and running but am waiting for my chiller to come in because I cannot get the water temp below 80 degrees. Need to sell old tank so I can afford it. Cycled already since I started with well cured rock from my established tank. Fish are in QT tank for now. I am looking and planning the placement of my prized corals (zoas and mushrooms mostly).

I have a few things for sale:

72 gallon Bow Front with black stand and canopy, Coralife light fixtures with 2- 65 w actinate and 2-10K lights (brand new still in the box) with a 405 Fluval. 350.00

Heaters : 200 watt $10
300 watt $15.
Seio 1100: 2 with magnet holders $25 each.

2 Pajama Cardnals, 3 inches $10 each, $15 for the pair (not mated) just live together nicely.

[K' Family Reef]

good luck selling your old tank Marsha.

regarding tank temps
see a lot of people going out and buying chillers when in most cases they are not necessary and w/ so much being required to run the reef perhaps the money is better spent elsewhere... tank temp is a highly debated issue but when one gets down to the bottom line then the people who are the 'experts' are now reporting that daily swings in temps are not as bad as once thought for our reefs and that they can handle higher temps then most people think.

we used to battle trying to keep the tank temps down
under 82... now we just let it go and it stays somewhere betw 82-86... 87/88 on the really hot days over the summer (or when forgot to turn fans on)... if the nutrients are kept low - then ones corals should not have any problems whatsoever handling the temp swings and it might even be good for them... i did not see one day over this last summer when my corals had any reaction to the heat even on the days when they rose in the 88* range!

when our temps used to climb up 83/84
my corals would immediately start showing signs of stress... that was before we got a phosphate reactor and the phosphates were (only) a little bit high... once the po4 reactor was installed then amazingly the corals no longer reacted to rising tank temps (nite and day difference)...

have heard from other veteran reefers
who have reported the same thing - one member of RC - JETCAT (who reportedly has been reefing for over 30 years) even said he kept a reef in the low 90's all during a summer w/ no ill effects to his corals

and my opinion/experience aside
just yesterday i came across a thread by DR RONALD SMIMEK a recognized authority here on RC and in the reefkeeping world... where he reported the same thing - chillers are something 'created' by the marine trade as a 'necessity'... and he even goes on to say his daily fluctuation is betw 82-86 which is right about where mine falls as well!

here is the link on that information from dr shimek
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic85520-11-1.aspx

good luck and oh btw how is that pistol shrimp doing?

regards

[Marsha]

The Pistol Shrimp is now named Hobbs (tiger) instead of Killa and his yellow watchman goby is Calvin. He is enjoying moving sand in the 12 gallon Nano and loving having a friend. I just got the watchman Monday so was amazed by how fast they buddied up. He is about 2-1/2 inches long now. To me it is amazing how much more I see him now that he has Calvin with him to watch for danger while he works.

[Philwd]

Hi Warren,
I think having more flow also helps corals withstand heat stresses. Most folks that allow thier tank to swing would go from 78-83ish. Few would allow it to go into the mid 80's. Allowing the swings will acclimate the corals as you said so they can survive a spike. There was research on the GBR that showed regions with higher swings had less bleaching.
The other reason I won't let my tank swing so high is I'm convinced deep water fish, like my wrasses, will burn up. Sorta like temperate smails do.
I think most folks could get by with fans. A few though would get very high humidity.

Phil

[K' Family Reef]

Originally posted by Marsha
The Pistol Shrimp is now named Hobbs (tiger) instead of Killa and his yellow watchman goby is Calvin. He is enjoying moving sand in the 12 gallon Nano and loving having a friend. I just got the watchman Monday so was amazed by how fast they buddied up. He is about 2-1/2 inches long now. To me it is amazing how much more I see him now that he has Calvin with him to watch for danger while he works.

[Marsha]

Thanks for the info on water temps. I have been going nuts trying to figure this tank out with the temps rising to 90 degrees. I put a fan on it today and am monitoring the temp every 2 hours today to see if that does the trick. I read that alge bloom would be worse at 80 degrees so that may be an issue. The books have read all said keeping it between 76 and 78 with 77 being perfect with 80 being the high end. I do not want to add any livestock until I know what my temps are going to be swinging from. Good time to cure and look for apstasia right? LOL

[K' Family Reef]

Originally posted by Philwd
Hi Warren,
I think having more flow also helps corals withstand heat stresses. Most folks that allow thier tank to swing would go from 78-83ish. Few would allow it to go into the mid 80's. Allowing the swings will acclimate the corals as you said so they can survive a spike. There was research on the GBR that showed regions with higher swings had less bleaching.
The other reason I won't let my tank swing so high is I'm convinced deep water fish, like my wrasses, will burn up. Sorta like temperate smails do.
I think most folks could get by with fans. A few though would get very high humidity.

Phil

Phil

(as Marsha is probably wondering what happened to her 'for sale' thread - its a free bump anyway! )

the flow is a given!
i know that we/me all have our 'assumptions' that multiply exponentially here on RC (part of problem w/ RC - if that is a problem) about the 'right' way to do things (NOT saying i dont 'respect' your opinion)... personally before this year i had the same view 78-82 and but would would shoot for 78-80 and no more... thought 'steady/constant' was the best and tried to limit the daily fluctuation as much as possible for the corals sake... this was based on the 'common' view of the past about tank temps which was based on (perhaps faulty) old/outdated research

but more and more of the research coming out today
(that i have come across atleast) are finding that corals can withstand greater temp fluctuations then previously thought (yet they still need to be 'acclimated' to it) and shimek even quotes 18* daily variations in some parts of the world... the research TODAY (and this is not my opinion) shows that corals can be kept at higher temps and can withstand greater daily fluctuations (again w/ acclimation - iow they can 'handle' it)... and in my 'opinion' (fwiw ) i think that is going to be the future trend in reefkeeping (thus chillers becoming less common/ of a necessity - so the aquarium trade will have to come up w/ something else!)... people are going to be waking up to the fact that the corals have evolved/SURVIVED for eons... and that as more and more of these corals are 'adapted' to aquarium life (aka PROP!) then the more resisant/ADAPTED they are going to be to the conditions (w/n reason)... the way it looks (perhaps not that far down the road) the reefkeeping hobby may become entirely dependent upon our own coral propagation vs taking any from the ocean (which is why PROP seems like such a good 'program' - why is it not (((expanded))) to include more people/EFFORTS/availability?)

i was glad to see shimeks article yesterday bec it backs up my experience, research, and now my 'opinion'


know that some species fish, snails etc
cant handle the temps... but are they (the specimens) worth the expense of purchasing then RUNNING a chiller (month after month/yr-yr)?... the $ spent on chiller could go much further being used for other necessary equipment and/or monthly savings on the utility bill (like shimek says - nicely created NECESSITY from the aquarium industry)... before this summer i was interested in GEOTHERMAL chiller design... and have plans to build one perhaps this winter if can find the time... but its more out of 'interest' in the design/PHILOSOPHY
then anything else (not to mention would like to do a garage fishroom which would then 'require' a chiller)... !

regards






here is a quote from the link given above by dr shimek


(shimek "quoting" someones questions then giving his answers)

You asked, "is it ok for my tank temps to vary 82-86 degrees over the day?"

Sure. My tank varies from about 80 to about 86.

"what is the max variation and daily high?"

This varies with the reef and is primarily due to latitude. Go to the BTA spawning thread, and see my post where I described finding sea surface temperatures from a given reef. Pick a reef and model yours after it.The max variation is around 18 F per day, from about 75 to about 93F; recorded at, I believe, Johnston Atoll about 50 years ago.


"i thought bleaching events occurred with sea temps of 82 or a little more."

82F is just about the average temperature for all the reefs in the world. Some reefs have bleached at that temperature but these have been reefs that were colder reefs, where the normal temperatures peaked at about 80F. World wide, about 40% or thereabouts of reefs never get as cold as 80F. Raise your system's temperature slowly, and there will be no problem. Once it is warmer, remember that for each 2 deg F rise in temperature, the animals' metabolic rates go up by about 10%. You WILL have to feed more!

"if i didn't have to worry about my tank getting to 86 i could probably run it without a chiller saving a bunch of money both short and long term."

Definitely.

[K' Family Reef]

Originally posted by Marsha
Thanks for the info on water temps. I have been going nuts trying to figure this tank out with the temps rising to 90 degrees. I put a fan on it today and am monitoring the temp every 2 hours today to see if that does the trick. I read that alge bloom would be worse at 80 degrees so that may be an issue. The books have read all said keeping it between 76 and 78 with 77 being perfect with 80 being the high end. I do not want to add any livestock until I know what my temps are going to be swinging from. Good time to cure and look for apstasia right? LOL

Marsha
fans will work just fine... run more then one if you have to... the info in the books you have is outdated... research this on RC - the most up to date current info is widely available on RC and many of the other marine forums around the internet! (i have (outdated) books that show bioballs and undergravel filters are necessities!)

regards

[dvlax40]

ive been saying that for awhile, ive always had at least a 3 degree temp swing, bumped it up to 5 degrees for a bit just to research, i dont have a problem with heat so my tank is a nice 76-80 degrees but i have had it all the way up to 85 with no ill effects

[Garage1217]

My old tank usually would swing from 78 to 84, never bothered a thing. Everyone would yell and scream when I said it would hit 84F telling me I had to buy a chiller or I would kill everything. I would simply answer "why? Nothing has died yet, tank looks great and has been doing this for months" Then they would say my digital thermometer was off. So I bought a lab grade one and yeah the digital was off by .2 hahaha. Glad to see some evidence backing up why I never had issues with slightly higher temps.

[K' Family Reef]

i always thought of chillers
as being for industrial use and/or extenuating circumstances (like my desire for garage fishroom in arizona)... definitely didnt buy into what the lfs' were telling me ... wasnt until joined RC that noticed everyone buying chillers and it seemed if one didnt have a unit then they were doing things all wrong!... also surprised that more people werent diy CHEAPER/better/working chilling alternatives or coming up w/ something that would work atleast (almost always ends up a person better off buying one then trying to diy chiller)... then came across geothermal chillers and the idea of using 'natures' resources to chill my tank became something to aspire to!

the only other reason for having chiller
(and really the only other real reason for us building a geothermal chiller this winter ) would be that in the event the a/c ever went out in the house... one would be up the creek... atleast having a chiller one would stand a chance for their reef to survive under this 'circumstance' so it would become a bit of a 'security' device more then anything buying someone a lil bit more time to get the a/c straightened out.

another free bump for your Marsha!


regards

[Marsha]

Seio 1100: 2 with magnet holders $25 each. Spoken for.

[dmorel]

the way it looks (perhaps not that far down the road) the reefkeeping hobby may become entirely dependent upon our own coral propagation vs taking any from the ocean (which is why PROP seems like such a good 'program' - why is it not (((expanded))) to include more people/EFFORTS/availability?)

It was intended by the founders to expand naturally over the years to include multi tiers of farmers and once the local market was flooded (read: we couldn't get more than a few bucks at auction for a frag that would command much more on the open market) we would expand to service other areas via internet auctions . Unfortunately none of the founding members remained in both the hobby and the local area and the original charter no longer exists (except in my head) I think I'm the only one still here and reefing, but I took a good two years+ time out from the hobby and am no longer qualified to be a PROP farmer according to the current governing body of the organization.
Trust me when we drawing this up the original board of directors envisioned PROP as the framework for a hobby changing organization, at least Mike, Erin and I did anyway. From what I've heard there are a few pieces that have started to really be readily available, perhaps the time is not too far out. Unfortunately the number of people that have rotated in and out of PROP as well as the disasters in a few tanks have limited the pyramid of growth necessary to really achieve fundamental change in the hobby as a whole, but I would certainly say the group has managed to affect genuine change in the LOCAL community and that's certainly worthy of note.

As always, I'm verbose on the topic of PROP, but it's something near and dear to my heart, and it got another bump to the for sale thread
-dm

[K' Family Reef]

Originally posted by dmorel

Trust me when we drawing this up the original board of directors envisioned PROP as the framework for a hobby changing organization, at least Mike, Erin and I did anyway.

-dm

well when i first read the 'note' (at top of forum)
about prop - it seemed something that could be hobby changing and far reaching... as you mentioned not only in the local community but (quite realistically) outside of it as well... to have a 'real' purpose i think helps to (define) not only the club but also its members and adds an entirely different element into joining a group.

was surprised when read the PROP faq (sticky)
that so few were involved... has anyone thought to expand the 'operations'... other areas have clubs that which have membership dues - has anyone ever thought about forming a PROP club/non profit organization... where yearly dues were charged to be a member?...

etc etc etc
seems like there could be all sorts of things that could be brainstormed on putting together a 'formal' club or forming PROP into one... use the dues to buy corals etc etc...

to form FRAG/PROP
into a dues paying club... and assuming that the dues were not outrageous then i would imagine that most of the people contributing to the forum today would still pay a nominal yearly charge for access to all the club auctions, etc etc... sometimes for a club really to grow they have to charge dues and by doing so the club can be that much more effective in accomplishing its goals/mission as well as offer more to its members... in this case when one thinks of joining the 'club' they would be able to join knowing that their yearly contribution/donation would be going to a GOOD CAUSE!...

just thoughts fwiw
because i only tune into (the local forum) to see what issues are going on w/ the reefers in this area - i really dont know what FRAG/PROP are all about (relationship betw the 2?)... are they formal groups/clubs w/ elected officers etc etc or is it just entirely informal?

regards

[K' Family Reef]

well Marsha
as if you are surprised - yet more bumps for your for sale thread!

[dmorel]

Marsha,
Sorry this thread has been so badly hijacked, but at least it is getting bumped a lot

Warren... Let me take this one at a time, but realize a few things up front.
I was a PROP founder, but the emphasis is on was, I no longer carry any weight at all. Frankly, I don't think the current BOD is particularly interested in having me represent them in any way shape or form. My point is, my statements relate to the reasons I was involved in the formation of PROP, my recollection of events that occurred, and my particular philosophy on what I would like to see PROP become but in no way represent an official PROP voice.

well when i first read the 'note' (at top of forum)
about prop - it seemed something that could be hobby changing and far reaching... as you mentioned not only in the local community but (quite realistically) outside of it as well... to have a 'real' purpose i think helps to (define) not only the club but also its members and adds an entirely different element into joining a group.

I think I agree with all of these sentiments. First and foremost, philosophically PROP was (and I believe continues to be) well defined as an altruistic movement designed to reduce the impact that reef keeping hobbyists have on the natural reefs as well as provide a source for higher quality livestock to hobbyists at a significant reduction in actual cost. As I've stated since the beginning of PROP the motivation behind 3+ generation captive raised corals as the only live stock that would procured is two fold. Not only does it adhere to the philosophy of not taking corals from the natural reefs but it proliferates the availability of "known good" captive livestock. In other words, I put (almost) as much value of having the frags be a known commodity as I do in the reduction of collecting.

Note: Currently PROP has stated that they may from time to time purchase wild corals in hopes of it becoming the next big thing. This is one area of change that I am not overly pleased with.

was surprised when read the PROP faq (sticky)
that so few were involved... has anyone thought to expand the 'operations'...

We certainly intended to have the organization grow substantially over time. The plan was to have multiple tiers of PROP farmers, as each PROP piece grew out we would be able to proliferate the coral in various tanks until there was over saturation of that specific piece.
I think two primary factors have worked against PROP in this regard:
1. The number of people who left the hobby or the local area in made it difficult to establish a large tiered organization
2. the number of pieces that were lost due to tank issues or otherwise set back the amount of available coral

I also don't know the current regimen for grow out that PROP uses. When we started the plan was to bring in a frag, grow it out until such time as it could be fragged again, the first frag went to another PROP farmer for continued grow out. Second and additional frags from the original tank would go to auction. First AND second frags from SECOND tank would go to other PROP farmers and then the cycle would continue much like a pyramid.

other areas have clubs that which have membership dues - has anyone ever thought about forming a PROP club/non profit organization... where yearly dues were charged to be a member?...

We had a formal club, Desert Marine Society (of DMS for short) that charged dues and had formal meetings etc with an (sort of) elected governing body. It died.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the idea of collecting dues. I very much like the fact that FRAG is just a group of reefers that hang out. The fact that they get together with regularity and promote a close reefing community locally is frankly better for me. I think it is also a less intimidating environment for the new comers than a formal dues paying club.

PROP when founded agreed that we would not charge anything beyond the commission to auction items at its bi monthly meetings. Using those commissions as well as the proceeds of auctioning off the frags from the PROP livestock was the only necessary funding beyond the initial seed money (which was donated by the founders) to keep the organization moving forward. It's possible that additional funds would in fact speed up the addition of corals to the PROP inventory, but... I personally feel that a cost/benefit of charging any membership dues would come out on the side of not doing so.

etc etc etc
seems like there could be all sorts of things that could be brainstormed on putting together a 'formal' club or forming PROP into one... use the dues to buy corals etc etc...

to form FRAG/PROP
into a dues paying club... and assuming that the dues were not outrageous then i would imagine that most of the people contributing to the forum today would still pay a nominal yearly charge for access to all the club auctions, etc etc...

I think you're probably right that they would, but somehow I find that it changes the "tone" of the group somehow. I'm not sure I can articulate exactly why I'm fundamentally against it, but I find myself being so none the less...

sometimes for a club really to grow they have to charge dues and by doing so the club can be that much more effective in accomplishing its goals/mission as well as offer more to its members... in this case when one thinks of joining the 'club' they would be able to join knowing that their yearly contribution/donation would be going to a GOOD CAUSE!...

That's probably true, but I don't know if it's required. Just purchasing corals from PROP auctions, and selling items at PROP auctions benefit the cause as well. Perhaps I'm being short sighted, but PROP was never intended to feel like anything other than a bunch of folks helping out the hobby. What might be an interesting idea is that it's been a long time since PROP asked for any donations (at least as far I know) -- one of the common responses when we first started and we asked for donations, at least from people who said no, was" "It will never last" --- well here we are four years later. Maybe it's time to ask again

just thoughts fwiw
because i only tune into (the local forum) to see what issues are going on w/ the reefers in this area -

They are good thoughts, and I'm personally always up for a good discussion about PROP since it's something so special to me personally.

i really dont know what FRAG/PROP are all about (relationship betw the 2?)... are they formal groups/clubs w/ elected officers etc etc or is it just entirely informal?

Both are (mostly) informal groups.
PROP at one time actually filed for not for profit incorporation, but I believe that eventually we stopped moving forward with that because it both cost a lot of money and was just too much of a hassle. It does have a Board of Directors, but the original charter is no longer in tact.
Frag, I don't believe has any formal structure though KirstenK often serves as the ambassador for all things Frag (and now a lot of PROP as well I guess).

It's certainly a much more harmonious relationship between the two groups today than it was when we started. We took a LOT of flack from a fairly vocal minority in the local area when we started. I remember one dude Azilla, who showed up out of no where and started causing all sorts of issues. There were others as well but I don't remember exactly how it all went down. There certainly were a lot of folks who didn't believe the motivation was pure. I'm glad now that those days are long long gone.

So, that's some of what I have to say on the subject. I can go on and on, but I can't imagine anyone is still reading at this point

-dm

[azrednex]

Why don't you guys take this to PMs and let the lady have her FS thread?

[dmorel]

I'm happy to continue the discussion in another thread if anyone is interested so as to not continue to derail this one, but I personally believe it has more value as an open discussion than as a private one.

[K' Family Reef]

Originally posted by dmorel
I'm happy to continue the discussion in another thread if anyone is interested so as to not continue to derail this one, but I personally believe it has more value as an open discussion than as a private one.

dmorel
am on my way out to go on a bike ride on this beautiful day!... but maybe we should pick this 'dialogue' up elsewhere (although cant be hurting Marshas selling 'campaign' )... either in pm's or in another thread - very interesting and i have some comments on what you had to say!

regards