Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by dryworm

does the drain pipes need to be above the water line in the sump or below it. or does it matter?

Yes they can be above the water line in the sump. However, this will most likely create some noise (from the volume of flow) which is against one of the design considerations: being silent.

Originally Posted by jeffreylam1132

Preferably, you want it about a couple inches below the water line to avoid the splashing noises. Does not affect performance whatsoever.

For silence, yes the outlets should be below the water line. However, a couple inches below the waterline will definitely affect performance, by making it more difficult to purge the air from the siphon line. It is important that this system be implemented as designed. Some (not all) deviations from this, lead to issues.

"All three standpipes are routed to the sump and terminate slightly below the waterline." "Slightly" has been defined in this thread, and many other places, as an inch or less.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by RicoJ

I see what you are saying. I am planning on drilling for the return and keeping the return near the surface. In case of a power outage to prevent back siphoning I will be using a George Fisher Wye Check Valve.

Rayn what size whole/plumbing did you use for your return? I am not certain of this. I will be using an Eheim 1262 (900 gph) as a return pump.

As long as the check valve is not required to prevent a flood, you are fine with it.

Check valves have a failure probability of 100%. It is not a question of if, it is a question of when. The "when" will be the time you need it to prevent a flood. It may work today, it may work tomorrow, but it may not work next month, or next year. Despite maintenance, it takes nothing much to cause a check valve to fail--a small chip of coralline for instance.

The reason why folks design their systems minimizing the power out drain down, and maximizing the extra sump volume, is for a passive failsafe that is truly failsafe, rather than the false sense of safety provided by an active failsafe, such as check valves. If it is not needed--go ahead and use it. If it is needed, redesign the system so that it is not needed.

At that point, if it is not needed--don't waste your money on it.

[h9151105]

Will this overflow system also work silently with a nano wavebox? The reason why I am asking for is tat it will not a steady flow to the overfow box

[d2mini]

Has anyone extended the pvc pipe between the tank bulkhead and the sanitary T so that ball valves and rest of the plumbing is all on the other side of a wall (in the fish room)?

[afamousjohnson]

I like the idea of silent, and after trying to get through some 5000 posts of great info, and heavy critics-going to start off with thanks for taking the time bean. I am guessing within the 5000 posts I missed the 1 thing im trying to grasp off the thread. The majority is running the consept off of an overflow box?? I imagine it may be a common sense factor, but I can be humble enough to say "that sometimes it illudes me "
I have a 90g with single overflow drilled with mega flow kit at present. I want to incorperate this into my system. I like that everything (drain/return) is out of sight as of now and would prefer to keep it that way as I moved from an overflow box to drilled from my last system with that in mind.
Questions:
Will I be able to incorperate this concept with only the two pipes-maybe making one with the valve and one for the failsafe or does it conflict not having the extra drain to help with the trickle off main overflow?? Have a friend who turned me onto this thread and he was talking on having only the main and the trickle so im guessing that to be without the failsafe drain which i am weary of after reading. I know then I would inevitably have to run a semi in view return-but in the end would rather have silent than a no visable pipping clean look I guess I could always incorperate the failsafe to run on the outside of the tank behind overflow maybe????
I know this may all of already been discussed(and if so maybe someone could help direct me to its place in the thread) or that it may seem a bit of a mess or jumbled scinerio-but any hindsight if you understand the direction I am going for in an answer would be greatly appreciated
Thanks again Bean and anyone contributing to the thread.

[windowlicker916]

Originally Posted by afamousjohnson

I like the idea of silent, and after trying to get through some 5000 posts of great info, and heavy critics-going to start off with thanks for taking the time bean. I am guessing within the 5000 posts I missed the 1 thing im trying to grasp off the thread. The majority is running the consept off of an overflow box?? I imagine it may be a common sense factor, but I can be humble enough to say "that sometimes it illudes me "
I have a 90g with single overflow drilled with mega flow kit at present. I want to incorperate this into my system. I like that everything (drain/return) is out of sight as of now and would prefer to keep it that way as I moved from an overflow box to drilled from my last system with that in mind.
Questions:
Will I be able to incorperate this concept with only the two pipes-maybe making one with the valve and one for the failsafe or does it conflict not having the extra drain to help with the trickle off main overflow?? Have a friend who turned me onto this thread and he was talking on having only the main and the trickle so im guessing that to be without the failsafe drain which i am weary of after reading. I know then I would inevitably have to run a semi in view return-but in the end would rather have silent than a no visable pipping clean look I guess I could always incorperate the failsafe to run on the outside of the tank behind overflow maybe????
I know this may all of already been discussed(and if so maybe someone could help direct me to its place in the thread) or that it may seem a bit of a mess or jumbled scinerio-but any hindsight if you understand the direction I am going for in an answer would be greatly appreciated
Thanks again Bean and anyone contributing to the thread.

Beananimals website clearly states that you need all 3, without the 3rd you risk a flood. Yes the two (main siphon and airline drain) will essentially give you the silent overflow, without the 3rd (aptly named the emergency standpipe) you risk flooding your room.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by afamousjohnson

I like the idea of silent, and after trying to get through some 5000 posts of great info, and heavy critics-going to start off with thanks for taking the time bean. I am guessing within the 5000 posts I missed the 1 thing im trying to grasp off the thread. The majority is running the consept off of an overflow box?? I imagine it may be a common sense factor, but I can be humble enough to say "that sometimes it illudes me "
I have a 90g with single overflow drilled with mega flow kit at present. I want to incorperate this into my system. I like that everything (drain/return) is out of sight as of now and would prefer to keep it that way as I moved from an overflow box to drilled from my last system with that in mind.
Questions:
Will I be able to incorperate this concept with only the two pipes-maybe making one with the valve and one for the failsafe or does it conflict not having the extra drain to help with the trickle off main overflow?? Have a friend who turned me onto this thread and he was talking on having only the main and the trickle so im guessing that to be without the failsafe drain which i am weary of after reading. I know then I would inevitably have to run a semi in view return-but in the end would rather have silent than a no visable pipping clean look I guess I could always incorperate the failsafe to run on the outside of the tank behind overflow maybe????
I know this may all of already been discussed(and if so maybe someone could help direct me to its place in the thread) or that it may seem a bit of a mess or jumbled scinerio-but any hindsight if you understand the direction I am going for in an answer would be greatly appreciated
Thanks again Bean and anyone contributing to the thread.

If you want to use just two, go with the Herbie setup which is basically a full siphon and an emergency drain. Takes a little more futzing with, but just as quiet until it fluctuates slightly and then starts trickling down the e-drain. I had this on my cube and it worked well. Do a search and you'll find the herbie thread.

[h4designs]

Wow... truly amazed in this thread size... I have searched through most of this and I am still a little bit confused.

I have a 55 g Clear for life acrylic tank 48x13x20. I was reading that I should place the center of the pipes 4.25 inches from the top of the tank. Is this correct? It seems really low, is that correct? Can I have the pipes closer to the top? If so what would be the negative effects of raising them>

Thanks,
Matt

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by h4designs

Wow... truly amazed in this thread size... I have searched through most of this and I am still a little bit confused.

I have a 55 g Clear for life acrylic tank 48x13x20. I was reading that I should place the center of the pipes 4.25 inches from the top of the tank. Is this correct? It seems really low, is that correct? Can I have the pipes closer to the top? If so what would be the negative effects of raising them>

Thanks,
Matt

Depends. You have to figure the weir height inside the tank--so the system operates properly, and use the "rule of thumb" 1 - 1.5x the hole diameter from the edge of the glass, and from other holes. Each case will be somewhat different. It is a question of pipe size, bulkhead size, and water level inside the overflow. (at or near the top of the down turned elbows.)

[TeslaReef]

uncleof6, beananimal,

A while back (post# 4542)I asked about a dual overflow implementation of the BeanAnimal overflow. I made some of the changes. Do you think this will work better? I am trying to see if this is really worth it before I order the acrylic and cut the overflows in my new tank.

I made the notches bigger as suggested but I wonder if the overflow needs to be this big.

I have it as 4"x4", could it be smaller?

Also, could I leave the existing overflow teeth alone or do they need to be plugged? I planned that the weir would be at the same height as the bottom of the overflow teeth which is currenlty about 1/4" below the top plastic trim.

If it doesn't cause an issue, I was hoping to leave the existing overflows teeth alone at the top, middle and bottom.

Is there a test that can tell you if they need to plugged up?


I am still collecting equipment but I hope to fill my tank in a couple months. If this actually is a good idea, I still need to order the acrylic for it.








Big thanks guys
Phillip

[makutaku]

I am wondering how beneficial would it be to have the siphon pipe/hole drilled a little bit below the other two. Maybe it would allow for that pipe to be submersed faster and therefore siphon faster, possibly making the whole system easier to adjust.

Has anybody tried this small change?

[wonrib00]

I got mine set up and running this past week on my 120, and sure enough, silent. Looking back, putting the siphon 1/2-1" lower would have been better, IMO. Now the problem is the return pump. Gonna have to look into an Eheim.

Thanks to everyone for sharing all the great info, especially BeanAnimal.

[medicreefer]

I just purchased a Spears gate valve for use on the siphon line of my BeanAnimal overflow. While dry fitting my plumbing together I noticed a product sticker on the gate valve that had the following statement: "PVC 200PSI 73F". My question is in regards to the temperature spec. Does this mean the valve is not designed to be used in water above this temperature? What are the consequences of using it with a 79-81F reef system? Will it leach chemicals?

Thanks.


Thanks,

[jwilson]

It will be fine; the 200psi is the maximum cold working pressure with "cold" being defined as 73F.

[bruce 1]

I am building my stand and want to hide my plumbing. (Bean Animal) How has any one else did that? So if you did this to your set up will you send me a picture of how you did it. Thank you

[Augster]

Originally Posted by bruce 1

I am building my stand and want to hide my plumbing. (Bean Animal) How has any one else did that? So if you did this to your set up will you send me a picture of how you did it. Thank you

I am in the process of designing a completely enclosed system that will utilize cut opaque plastic sheets (acrylic or ABS, depending upon if I decide gloss smooth or textured) that will "extend" the sides of the tank to cover the plumbing in back.

I will post images when I have a rough sketch of my idea...

[bruce 1]

Thanks I look forward to seeing them.

Originally Posted by Augster

I am in the process of designing a completely enclosed system that will utilize cut opaque plastic sheets (acrylic or ABS, depending upon if I decide gloss smooth or textured) that will "extend" the sides of the tank to cover the plumbing in back.

I will post images when I have a rough sketch of my idea...

[Augster]

Originally Posted by bruce 1

Thanks I look forward to seeing them.

I'd like to first start off with props out to Bean, Uncle and the countless others here that have contributed their valuable knowledge and experience in educating us in new methods and techniques that have evolved this hobby to higher levels of satisfaction and enjoyment. My thanks to you all for your selflessness and tireless devotion to this art!

With that said, here is my design concept implementing a BA overflow utilizing an internal weir and external overflow box for an existing glass 100g tank (6' L x 23" H x 18" D). My required criteria were the following:

1) All permanently mounted equipment and plumbing must be housed entirely within the aquarium structure.

2) Maximize "dead space" utilization behind the tank around the drain and return plumbing.

3) Conceal all traces of overflow boxes, plumbing and equipment as much as possible.

4) Isolate vibrations from the external pump by using flexible tubing to connect it to all hard pipes.

5) Easy access and maintenance.



Once I decided on 1.5" drains throughout and 1" return split into 3/4" Loc-Lines, I had to determine the locations to drill the back glass. This required knowing the installed minimum heights and physical dimensions of each channel. I bought a 90 degree 1.5" elbow from a local Home Depot to give me some idea of the space the plumbing would need. As someone unfamiliar with working with this size, I was astounded at how large 1.5" PVC fittings and pipes are!

Hole placement also had to follow these golden rules as gleaned from this thread:

1) The center of the connecting holes between the internal weir and external overflow box needed to be at the normal operating water level of the overflow system, which appears to be approximately the center line of the open channel.

2) The edge of the holes must be at least one diameter away from glass edges and other holes (for the bottom glass of the external overflow, this was not possible due to it's narrow size).

3) The top of the weir should be at the bottom edge of the trim (or at least 1" from the top on rimless tanks).

I came to the realization that if I am to accurately plan a detailed construction list and layout, I would need to either purchase everything in advance and mock up a physical model via trial and error; turn to traditional paper, ruler, compass, protractor and pencil; or go the 21st century way via CAD. Although I have a lot of graphic design work under my belt, this is my first attempt at 3D design and there certainly has been a learning curve to hurdle over, and continue to hurdle through but I feel this has been an invaluable aid in accurately conceptualizing a significant and rather complex project of this magnitude; from construction and drilling of the tank and overflow system, sump, cabinetry cut list to critical placement and space management of all components. Despite some of its shortcomings, Google Sketchup has certainly been very useful, especially the ease to search and download public 3D models from the internet.

Suffice to say, the centerline of the 65mm holes (based on using the same hole saw used to drill the holes for 1.5" Schedule 80 bulkheads from Bulk Reef Supply) are 3-13/16" from the top of the tank.



I selected tinted glass (e.g. Graylite) for the weir and clear glass for the external box. A pair of glass covers over the weir (my tank has a 16" wide glass center brace which necessitates splitting the cover into two)
with 3/8" rubber "feet" keep most critters out of it. To match the thickness of the tank, 3/8" glass will be used.



I saw a potential for the large unused area underneath the external overflow to implement a gravity fed auto-top off system. By squeezing all the plumbing as far to one side as possible and accepting some of the compromises in this tight configuration, I am able to fit a custom 1/4" acrylic 31" L x 13-3/8" H x 6" D reservoir (roughly 10 gallons).



Although I have rendered the back glass of the tank clear to allow easy visualization of the various components, it will be painted black to hide everything from the front. To that end, I extended the weir box bottom to be as low as the external box's bottom in order to cover the entire perimeter of the external's silicone joints to the back (since those points can not be painted to hide it from the front), accepting that water below the connecting holes for such a deep weir may not have enough current to prevent crud accumulating in its bottom. Weir dimensions are 56" L x 7-7/8" H x 2" D while overflow box dimensions are 48" L x 7-3/8" H x 5-1/2" D. The shorter overflow is offset (aligned to left edge of weir, which is 2" from edge of tank) to allow filling of the top off tank. Top of overflow box is affixed 1-9/16" from top of tank (bottom should align with bottom of weir).



To enclose all the external plumbing and leveraging a custom built stand and canopy, I will have a pair of removable vertical opaque plastic panels on each side, notched on the leading edges to allow them to fit flush to the back of my rimmed tank. For illustration purposes, doors and back panels of the canopy and stand are not rendered.

The stand will be built deeper than the tank itself to incorporate everything behind it within it's footprint. As a benefit, this facilitates a direct, straight-down flow of the drain pipes into the sump. Average height figures helps provide scale as this is a rather large ensemble! Stand height to base of tank is 40" to allow ease of access and to fit all planned equipment inside. And by hanging the large reactors above the sump, any water leakage during consumable replenishment will drain into the sump.

I take no credit in the stand and canopy design. For that, my appreciation goes out to Will for sharing his magnificent 90g build. He has since left the hobby but I hope he returns to it again someday as he recently replied to a posting on his old build thread...

DISCLAIMER: I have never had nor maintained a saltwater tank before so I make no claims of knowing what the heck I'm doing! And before this endeavor, I've only had a couple Betta fish bowls. In fact, the only item I have on hand right now is just the tank.

[SoLiD]

^^^ I like this mod VERY MUCH. Well thought out and I'm pretty sure it will work. Great write up, too. I may incorporate this into my next build.

[Augster]

Originally Posted by Augster

... for an existing glass 100g tank (6' L x 23" H x 18" D).

I goofed on the length: I meant to write 60" (as in 5 feet).

And the stand framing (without skin) is sized 60-1/2" Long x 40" High x 24-1/2" Deep to accommodate it.

In case anyone was wondering on true dimensions.

[MX175]

I may have missed this question already but is it easy to use this design in a tank that has a center overflow & return? I want to use it in a relatively small 60 gal 4ft long tank I have in mind and I'm not sure if I'll have enough real estate in the overflow to fit everything. Any details would be great and thanks in advance for sharing.

[Brycntif]

Hello, are the sanitary tee's / normal tee's required for the Bean Animal to work? That is can just pvc elbows on the be used on the Full Siphon Standpipe or is the air pocket created by the use of the sanitary tee needed on the Full Siphon Standpipe? I can see how it is needed on the Open Channel Standpipe for the air tube but I would like to know if it is required on the Full Siphon Standpipe. I have seen people not use a sanitary tee on the Emergency Standpipe but everyone always seem to have one on the Full Siphon Standpipe. If anyone can explain that would be awesome. Thanks so much!

[jdcook72]

I believe the use of the tees is only to provide access to clean out the pipes. The system should be able to be built using elbows only if you desire, even on the open chanenel if you don't mind dirlling a hole and inserting the tube.

[rrasco]

They are not required, as jd said, they are there for maintenance. I didn't use them in my new setup since the overflow was loud if I made the standpipes short enough to hide the protruding cap; which I did at first. My standpipes are not glued in so I can remove the whole thing for servicing if necessary. I couldn't be happier with this drain on this system; it truly is dead silent.

[Brycntif]

Awesome, thanks guys!