Bleach vs Acid - Page 3

gwenvet · 03/30/2009, 06:45 PM

Hi guys, Im joining you in the bleaching party. I've had 100lbs of LR in a tub in my basement now for 8 weeks to try to get rid of the algae and it's just not going away, so I'm going to bleach it. Don't think I have enough bleach to do it tonight but I'll be heading to the grocery store tomorrow! Will go in search of Muriatic acid and Drayno too (to neutralize the bleach, or is it the acid, or both??).
Happy bleaching...

HighlandReefer · 03/30/2009, 06:56 PM

Muriatic acid is for removing items like phosphate built up in your rock. The bleach will kill many of the pests like that algae you have. It may take several bleaching and cleanings of your rock to completely rid it of the organics on it.

Perhaps using a chlorine remover found at your LFS can make sure the bleach is completely gone.

gwenvet · 03/30/2009, 07:02 PM

I decided to just get it started and added a gallon of bleach to the 20 gal or so of salt water the rock was in. Tomorrow I'll pump that out and add new bleach to tap water. Can't wait to be done with this.
After it's all rinsed, how long do you all think we should let the rock seed with bacteria so that we don't get a cycle when we put it in the DT? Please Randy, don't say 4-6 weeks!

therealfatman · 03/30/2009, 08:56 PM

IMO Bleach is best used as a disinfectant not a cleaner as you need too much chlorine to break down all the organics with chlorine alone and then you have to get rid of the chlorine. The chlorine remover typically available at LFS is quite diluted and it would likely take a half dozen bottles or more to actually neutralize a full gallon of bleach. The sodium thiosulfate sold at an LFS is diluted to dilute chlorine concentrations of residual chlorine in tap water. Residual chlorine is down around 0.02 ppm. The concentration of chlorine typically needed before you can smell it is 3.5 ppm.

There is very little in the way of organics that can stand up to what is referred to as acid/base washs. Muriactic acid or bleach is the acid. Sodium Hydroxide (Draino) is the base. The problem with an acids is it dissolves live rock. A mild chlorine soak, followed by short dips in strong acid, followed by immediate dips or short soaks in the base will remove everything without the worries of large residual amounts of chlorine.

You definitely need gloves and eye protection when working with strong acids and strong bases though. 100 pounds of live rock should be an easy evening chore. Myself I would only use a half cup to a cup of chlorine and let the acid and base do the work. It is a simple matter of testing for a ph of 7 and adjusting with a base or acis to a pH of 7 for your final soak/rinse. A quart of Muriatic acid and a can of Draino is pretty cheap in comparison to a bunch of dilute bottles of sodium thiosulfate. Or you use lots of chlorine after many, many, many copious rinsings then air your coral in the sun for a week or so until quite a while after the smell of bleach is completely gone and not worry about acid and base washs.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/31/2009, 10:34 AM

thanx so much for your help thrrealfatman,
as for dipping,how long would you say for acid and base?
im done with the bleach soak.

thank you again

fourzero · 03/31/2009, 09:53 PM

This thread is quickly spiraling out of control.

Test the pH. If it's low, rinse some more. If it's not, you're probably OK. I hate to be a killjoy here, but you have already received about 300% of the help required to perform this type of task.

bheron · 04/01/2009, 07:06 AM

I thnk this thread has proven to be valuable. If there are questions or comments, disregard the comments by fourzero and keep posting :-)

Hammsreefbeer · 04/01/2009, 08:33 AM

hey gumby,testing ph is for acid base soak,is this how you got your 40 post in the last to years...
anyway,bheron how is it going?im doing acid dip today.i was able to get some realy good LR to seed this rock after treatment is done.
thanx to everyone that has helped through the process

bheron · 04/01/2009, 09:42 AM

:-)

i was planning on doing my acid dip last night but couldnt get to it. another day in bleach!

- what ratio are you using to dip? 10:1 water to acid?

- are you going to rinse in water afterwards or let it dry first. I know water and acid dont go well together.

- are we assuming the acid will remove the chlorine left over from the bleach?

Hammsreefbeer · 04/01/2009, 09:54 AM

im going to use a decholinator first(i have tons of the stuff for our kio pond)then ill rinse really good with clean water.
not sure if im going to let it dry or do i a acid dip

fourzero · 04/01/2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bheron

- what ratio are you using to dip? 10:1 water to acid?

- are you going to rinse in water afterwards or let it dry first. I know water and acid dont go well together.

- are we assuming the acid will remove the chlorine left over from the bleach?

1) Depends on strength of acid used. Anything you can get your hands on most likely won't matter. Wear gloves and eye protection.

2) Anything you can get your hands on won't matter. Rinse it off. Wear gloves and eye protection.

3) Rinse it off well with fresh water. Test for chlorine. Rinse, repeat.

In short, RINSE THE ROCK. This is like reading directions on the back of the shampoo bottle and debating just how many times you should rinse and repeat (it is rather vague, isn't it?).

gwenvet · 04/01/2009, 10:19 AM

I've rinsed my bleached rock twice now in about 30 gal of water each time. Still smells and some is still brown, not white. Should it all be white? Went and bought Muratic acid and Drayno. Was thinking of doing a 10% acid wash (how long to soak) then rinsing with water and adding a capful(?) of Drayno. The Drayno contains sodium hydroxide, sodium hypochlorite and sodium silicate. Is that OK to use?
Gumby, if you don't like the thread than don't read it. We're all helping each other out here and we're all a bit out of our 'box'. I'm sure we do really well with what we're familiar with, but at least we're open to learning new things.

LISound · 04/01/2009, 10:23 AM

FYI.

I had some really dirty/old rock that I wanted to use. Based on an older thread with Randy...here is what i did and it worked like a charm.

First. Acid Bath.

1:10 ratio to start. put a power head in there as well to keep the water moving.
This was the most disgusting foam I've ever seen. The rock will bubble and a dark brown foam will form at the surface of the water, depending on how dirty the rock is.

I did this to remove PO4. Once the foam and bubbles stop, the acid has been used up, usually after about 20-30 min.
you can add some baking soda to see if all the acid has been nutrulized.

I dumped all the water out...be careful where you dump this as there may still be a small amount of acid.
I wasn't convinced my rock was clean, so i gave it another bath. This time a 1:5 ratio--much stronger. I was still getting the brown black foam at the surface and the water was dark brown when I was done.

I went for a third soak, just for good measure, this one didn't produce as much dark foam, so I assumed the rock was getting cleaner.

After all that, I soaked in clean RO water with a power head for 2 days.

dumped the water out and added new RO water. Now time for the bleach.
The rock was cleaner, and white. but I could still see some algae on the rock and dead worms, etc.
I soaked that in 1/4 cup of bleach to 10 gallons of water. leave the power head in there again for 2 days.

After the 2 days, I took the rock out and did it again.

2 days after that, I soaked in ro water with a dechlornator. amaquel or something like that for 2 days and repeated that 2 more times.

I then let the rock sit out in the sun for a day or 2.

After all of the above...I let the rock soak in ro water with a powerhead for week.
I smelled the water after that week and could not detect any chlorine.

I did one more water change just to be safe with clean RO water.

I added the rock to my tank with some other live rock and now, a month and half later.
No algae on any of the new cleaned rock and it's starting to color up purple.

no PO4 in the tank at all.

What I did might seem like a lot but the rock I was using was in really bad shape.
I was always getting HA, it was a mess. Not anymore.

hope that helps.

LISound · 04/01/2009, 10:29 AM

i wouldn't use draino. just use the acid. you can find it at any hardware store.
Some rocks, I just went with a 1:1 ratio. The acid will eat away at the rock, which is made up of carbonet.

gwenvet · 04/01/2009, 10:47 AM

Just wondering if I add the acid before absolutely all the bleach is gone it that will be a problem. Seem to remember something long ago about bleach and acids causing deadly gas. Lovely.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/01/2009, 11:03 AM

thanx for your help LISound

bertoni · 04/01/2009, 12:55 PM

Bleach and ammonia will produce toxic chloramine gas when combined. I'm not aware of any issues that would result from an interaction of muriatic acid and lye in dilute solutions.

gwenvet · 04/01/2009, 03:29 PM

Oh yeah, that was the combination. Thanks.
LISound...thanks for the protocol. Too bad I started the other way around allready.

therealfatman · 04/01/2009, 06:13 PM

Muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) and Draino (sodium hydroxide) are at opposite ends of the pH scale and therefore they merely neutralize each other. Oils are miscible in very high pH waters. ie draino removes greeze from drains. Where as oils they readily seperate from water in low pH water and therefore coat surfaces and fill pores. Besides neutralizing the acid quicker and easier than water rinses (dilution of acids) the base (draino) will remove the oils still present on your rock.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/01/2009, 07:06 PM

how many parts of draino would you use that would be safe for a 32g brute trash can full of rock but with only say20-25 g of water.also how many RO soaks should be done with this type of treatment.
thanx everyone for all your help.ive never delt with before and it was hard to even do because the rock was bac to the bone.But 2 good things came from all this...
1. the rock is nice and clean(6 yr old rock)and no more aiptasia's
2.ill get to re-aquascape,and peg everthing instead of having a big pile of rocks(250 lbs est..).im putting half in the sump this time.

WORD OF ADVICE FOR NEWBIES.....NEVER LET AIPTASIA'S GET A HOLD OF YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!!!

mouserusker · 04/01/2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hammsreefbeer

WORD OF ADVICE FOR NEWBIES.....NEVER LET AIPTASIA'S GET A HOLD OF YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!!!

+1
I'm fighting those little buggers right now. I'm thinking of trying some Berghia nudis. I cannot bring myself to imagine my rocks all dead and white...

bertoni · 04/01/2009, 09:48 PM

The base might also do some saponification, which is interesting, if irrelevant.

LISound · 04/01/2009, 11:52 PM

try a few peppermint shrimp. they will get all of them, just don't feed them as much to encourage them to eat the aptasia.
use joe's juice or kalk paste in a syringe for the bigger ones. If you have fish in the tank, just target feed them for the month.

No reason to break down the tank and kill all that live rock for some aptasia.
IMO.

therealfatman · 04/02/2009, 11:10 AM

We could all be Beverly Hillbillies and saphonate up some good old lye soap. Times be getting rough, might not be a bad knowledge to possess. I am presently taking lots of Vicodan while trying to pass a kidney stone so my replies might be a bit strange.

gwenvet · 04/02/2009, 11:11 AM

Things are bubbling away in acid right now but they are more brown than when they went in. Is anyone else experiencing this? It's been soaking for about 2 hrs and still bubbling. I don't know how much Drayno to add either. I think I may go back and do another bleach soak to get it white again. Aaargh.

03/30/2009, 06:56 PM	#52
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,592	Muriatic acid is for removing items like phosphate built up in your rock. The bleach will kill many of the pests like that algae you have. It may take several bleaching and cleanings of your rock to completely rid it of the organics on it. Perhaps using a chlorine remover found at your LFS can make sure the bleach is completely gone. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

03/31/2009, 10:34 AM	#55
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,086	thanx so much for your help thrrealfatman, as for dipping,how long would you say for acid and base? im done with the bleach soak. thank you again __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/01/2009, 07:06 AM	#57
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,672	I thnk this thread has proven to be valuable. If there are questions or comments, disregard the comments by fourzero and keep posting :-) __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

04/01/2009, 08:33 AM	#58
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,086	hey gumby,testing ph is for acid base soak,is this how you got your 40 post in the last to years... anyway,bheron how is it going?im doing acid dip today.i was able to get some realy good LR to seed this rock after treatment is done. thanx to everyone that has helped through the process __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/01/2009, 09:42 AM	#59
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,672	:-) i was planning on doing my acid dip last night but couldnt get to it. another day in bleach! - what ratio are you using to dip? 10:1 water to acid? - are you going to rinse in water afterwards or let it dry first. I know water and acid dont go well together. - are we assuming the acid will remove the chlorine left over from the bleach? __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

03/30/2009, 06:45 PM	#51
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	Hi guys, Im joining you in the bleaching party. I've had 100lbs of LR in a tub in my basement now for 8 weeks to try to get rid of the algae and it's just not going away, so I'm going to bleach it. Don't think I have enough bleach to do it tonight but I'll be heading to the grocery store tomorrow! Will go in search of Muriatic acid and Drayno too (to neutralize the bleach, or is it the acid, or both??). Happy bleaching...

03/30/2009, 07:02 PM	#53
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	I decided to just get it started and added a gallon of bleach to the 20 gal or so of salt water the rock was in. Tomorrow I'll pump that out and add new bleach to tap water. Can't wait to be done with this. After it's all rinsed, how long do you all think we should let the rock seed with bacteria so that we don't get a cycle when we put it in the DT? Please Randy, don't say 4-6 weeks!

03/30/2009, 08:56 PM	#54
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,472	IMO Bleach is best used as a disinfectant not a cleaner as you need too much chlorine to break down all the organics with chlorine alone and then you have to get rid of the chlorine. The chlorine remover typically available at LFS is quite diluted and it would likely take a half dozen bottles or more to actually neutralize a full gallon of bleach. The sodium thiosulfate sold at an LFS is diluted to dilute chlorine concentrations of residual chlorine in tap water. Residual chlorine is down around 0.02 ppm. The concentration of chlorine typically needed before you can smell it is 3.5 ppm. There is very little in the way of organics that can stand up to what is referred to as acid/base washs. Muriactic acid or bleach is the acid. Sodium Hydroxide (Draino) is the base. The problem with an acids is it dissolves live rock. A mild chlorine soak, followed by short dips in strong acid, followed by immediate dips or short soaks in the base will remove everything without the worries of large residual amounts of chlorine. You definitely need gloves and eye protection when working with strong acids and strong bases though. 100 pounds of live rock should be an easy evening chore. Myself I would only use a half cup to a cup of chlorine and let the acid and base do the work. It is a simple matter of testing for a ph of 7 and adjusting with a base or acis to a pH of 7 for your final soak/rinse. A quart of Muriatic acid and a can of Draino is pretty cheap in comparison to a bunch of dilute bottles of sodium thiosulfate. Or you use lots of chlorine after many, many, many copious rinsings then air your coral in the sun for a week or so until quite a while after the smell of bleach is completely gone and not worry about acid and base washs.

03/31/2009, 09:53 PM	#56
fourzero Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 127	This thread is quickly spiraling out of control. Test the pH. If it's low, rinse some more. If it's not, you're probably OK. I hate to be a killjoy here, but you have already received about 300% of the help required to perform this type of task.

04/01/2009, 09:54 AM	#60
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,086	im going to use a decholinator first(i have tons of the stuff for our kio pond)then ill rinse really good with clean water. not sure if im going to let it dry or do i a acid dip __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/01/2009, 10:19 AM	#62
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	I've rinsed my bleached rock twice now in about 30 gal of water each time. Still smells and some is still brown, not white. Should it all be white? Went and bought Muratic acid and Drayno. Was thinking of doing a 10% acid wash (how long to soak) then rinsing with water and adding a capful(?) of Drayno. The Drayno contains sodium hydroxide, sodium hypochlorite and sodium silicate. Is that OK to use? Gumby, if you don't like the thread than don't read it. We're all helping each other out here and we're all a bit out of our 'box'. I'm sure we do really well with what we're familiar with, but at least we're open to learning new things.

04/01/2009, 10:23 AM	#63
LISound Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: CT Posts: 804	FYI. I had some really dirty/old rock that I wanted to use. Based on an older thread with Randy...here is what i did and it worked like a charm. First. Acid Bath. 1:10 ratio to start. put a power head in there as well to keep the water moving. This was the most disgusting foam I've ever seen. The rock will bubble and a dark brown foam will form at the surface of the water, depending on how dirty the rock is. I did this to remove PO4. Once the foam and bubbles stop, the acid has been used up, usually after about 20-30 min. you can add some baking soda to see if all the acid has been nutrulized. I dumped all the water out...be careful where you dump this as there may still be a small amount of acid. I wasn't convinced my rock was clean, so i gave it another bath. This time a 1:5 ratio--much stronger. I was still getting the brown black foam at the surface and the water was dark brown when I was done. I went for a third soak, just for good measure, this one didn't produce as much dark foam, so I assumed the rock was getting cleaner. After all that, I soaked in clean RO water with a power head for 2 days. dumped the water out and added new RO water. Now time for the bleach. The rock was cleaner, and white. but I could still see some algae on the rock and dead worms, etc. I soaked that in 1/4 cup of bleach to 10 gallons of water. leave the power head in there again for 2 days. After the 2 days, I took the rock out and did it again. 2 days after that, I soaked in ro water with a dechlornator. amaquel or something like that for 2 days and repeated that 2 more times. I then let the rock sit out in the sun for a day or 2. After all of the above...I let the rock soak in ro water with a powerhead for week. I smelled the water after that week and could not detect any chlorine. I did one more water change just to be safe with clean RO water. I added the rock to my tank with some other live rock and now, a month and half later. No algae on any of the new cleaned rock and it's starting to color up purple. no PO4 in the tank at all. What I did might seem like a lot but the rock I was using was in really bad shape. I was always getting HA, it was a mess. Not anymore. hope that helps.

04/01/2009, 10:29 AM	#64
LISound Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: CT Posts: 804	i wouldn't use draino. just use the acid. you can find it at any hardware store. Some rocks, I just went with a 1:1 ratio. The acid will eat away at the rock, which is made up of carbonet.

04/01/2009, 10:47 AM	#65
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	Just wondering if I add the acid before absolutely all the bleach is gone it that will be a problem. Seem to remember something long ago about bleach and acids causing deadly gas. Lovely.

04/01/2009, 11:03 AM	#66
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,086	thanx for your help LISound __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/01/2009, 12:55 PM	#67
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 87,169	Bleach and ammonia will produce toxic chloramine gas when combined. I'm not aware of any issues that would result from an interaction of muriatic acid and lye in dilute solutions. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/01/2009, 03:29 PM	#68
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	Oh yeah, that was the combination. Thanks. LISound...thanks for the protocol. Too bad I started the other way around allready.

04/01/2009, 06:13 PM	#69
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,472	Muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) and Draino (sodium hydroxide) are at opposite ends of the pH scale and therefore they merely neutralize each other. Oils are miscible in very high pH waters. ie draino removes greeze from drains. Where as oils they readily seperate from water in low pH water and therefore coat surfaces and fill pores. Besides neutralizing the acid quicker and easier than water rinses (dilution of acids) the base (draino) will remove the oils still present on your rock.

04/01/2009, 07:06 PM	#70
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,086	how many parts of draino would you use that would be safe for a 32g brute trash can full of rock but with only say20-25 g of water.also how many RO soaks should be done with this type of treatment. thanx everyone for all your help.ive never delt with before and it was hard to even do because the rock was bac to the bone.But 2 good things came from all this... 1. the rock is nice and clean(6 yr old rock)and no more aiptasia's 2.ill get to re-aquascape,and peg everthing instead of having a big pile of rocks(250 lbs est..).im putting half in the sump this time. WORD OF ADVICE FOR NEWBIES.....NEVER LET AIPTASIA'S GET A HOLD OF YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/01/2009, 09:48 PM	#72
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 87,169	The base might also do some saponification, which is interesting, if irrelevant. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/01/2009, 11:52 PM	#73
LISound Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: CT Posts: 804	try a few peppermint shrimp. they will get all of them, just don't feed them as much to encourage them to eat the aptasia. use joe's juice or kalk paste in a syringe for the bigger ones. If you have fish in the tank, just target feed them for the month. No reason to break down the tank and kill all that live rock for some aptasia. IMO.

04/02/2009, 11:10 AM	#74
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,472	We could all be Beverly Hillbillies and saphonate up some good old lye soap. Times be getting rough, might not be a bad knowledge to possess. I am presently taking lots of Vicodan while trying to pass a kidney stone so my replies might be a bit strange.

04/02/2009, 11:11 AM	#75
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 302	Things are bubbling away in acid right now but they are more brown than when they went in. Is anyone else experiencing this? It's been soaking for about 2 hrs and still bubbling. I don't know how much Drayno to add either. I think I may go back and do another bleach soak to get it white again. Aaargh.