White Dinoflagellates

[austin93]

I have never heard of white dino's, but I think that is what I have. Does anyone know anything about this? I have been running a ULNS for about 6 months now and it started when I began the system. Its the fuzzy crap on the glass.




Thanks.

[acrylic_300]

It almost looks like the tang have been eating on it from the pics.

Are you sure it's not dying or unhealthy hair algae of some sort?

[aquariumclown]

If it's due to ULNS, it maybe be due to carbon dosing. Usually get this kind of thing when you dose too much vodka, it should stop if you are dosing the balanced amount for your tank size. I would suggest you lower your dosages, scrape and siphon out the stuff on the glass. Then see if it doesn't come back, or at least minimized. Also, be sure you are skimming heavily until it subsides.

[kaskiles]

Originally posted by aquariumclown
If it's due to ULNS, it maybe be due to carbon dosing. Usually get this kind of thing when you dose too much vodka, it should stop if you are dosing the balanced amount for your tank size. I would suggest you lower your dosages, scrape and siphon out the stuff on the glass. Then see if it doesn't come back, or at least minimized. Also, be sure you are skimming heavily until it subsides.

Hmm, so that could be a bacterial bloom from the organic carbon?

[HighlandReefer]

It looks like bacteria. Overdosing carbon sources will cause this.

[austin93]

I do think the tangs will eat it as well as the blenny and the snails. It just grows faster than they will consume it. I have been running a neozeo system (brightwell aquatics) for 6 months and have never tested for nitrates or phosphates with salifert tests. I asked Chris Brightwell and he thought that it was dino's and not bacteria. I haven't dosed in a week or so but have seen no change. He thought it was too low nutrients which was causing problems for the corals being able to uptake nutrients. He recommended cutting light for a day and upping the ph as well as heavily feeding AA and other foods. Just didn't want to make the problem worse by over reacting or treating something that was misdiagnosed. Thanks for the input.

[HighlandReefer]

These are green dinos from Randy's article:





I would assume that the colorless dinos would behave similarly?

I know Chris has lots of experience in many of these matters, so I don't want to say he is wrong. Did he actually look at this picture of yours?

The pictures I have seen of the so called colorless dinos always had a green or brown tinge to them.

[austin93]

I did send him these same pics. Do you think its bacteria?

[HighlandReefer]

In order to properly ID these type of pests one has to be very familiar with what identified samples look like or would have to look at them under a scope. Personally, I would have to look at a sample of what you have under my scope to properly ID it. The pictures provided are usually not macros and this also make it hard to ID these type pests even if you are familiar with IDed samples.

I have never seen the colorless dinos. I would assume colorless dinos would not derive their food from photosynthesis and in that case would be free swimming in your water column and actively feeding to aquire nourishment. Yours are attached, which raises questions, but I have not studied the dinos to that point at this time. I will have to look them up in some of my text books.

[luther1200]

If I had to guess I would say bacteria. But I am no expert on the subject.

[austin93]

Wouldn't bacteria die off if you stopped dosing carbon?

[luther1200]

maybe, but if there was anything else in the water it could thrive on once its established it may be harder to shake it.

[HighlandReefer]

A carbon source is fed on by bacteria and their populations will increase. Skimming removes the bacteria along with the phosphate and nitrate they have adsorbed into their cell structure. If you add too much carbon source, their population will get out of hand and skimming can not keep up with it. At that point you reduce the amount of carbon source you dose, clean out as much of the bacteria physically as you can and continue proper skimming techniques. Usually the bacteria will disappear at that point and you will need to decrease the amount of carbon you dose from that point on. In my system, the bacteria started appearing like what your picture depicts when my nitrates became low.

Some of the dinoflagellates can derive their food from inorganic sources through photosynthesis, others will feed phagotrophically on organic molecules and bacteria. They would not need photosynthesis to accomplish this and may not contain chloroplasts which give the green color. Most of these are single celled dinoflagellates and float in the water column. In many cases you will get a mix of algae and dinos, where the algae actually attaches to the substrate and the dinos attach to the green, red or brown algae. This could be what is happening in the picture noted above from Randy's article.

[kaskiles]

Highland,

Are you saying that the dino's that can plague our reef aquariums can survive by consuming our dissolved organic material (and not some bacterial products of that material)?

[tmz]

I think it's bacteria associated with the carbon dosing.

[austin93]

I am starting to think its bacteria too. I am getting frustrated with this entire process. I think I will give the glass another good cleaning and see what develops. I do appreciate the advice. Cliff I can send you a sample if you are curious. I can't think it would be expensive just a padded envelope and a couple ziplock bags.

[Boomer]

Yes, it is an odd bacteria I have never seen ID but pops-up on are occasions. It can even grow to look like white hair algae a rfoot or so long. Jullian has seen the same thing but I can ask around.

Yup, I hope Cliff takes it to see if we can figure what it really is.

[Jk5]

Be carreful austin...
I have seen bacterial blooms evolutioned to dinoflagellates if carbon dosage is stopped...

IMO than Chris Brightwell...

Please buy tests and check no3 po4 levels...
I asume your levels are No3=0 po4=0

dinoflagellates might be the dominant phytoplankton in a enviroment po4 limited.

Try to follow the recons of Brightwell...
Perhaps a bit less of carbon source and a bit more of heavily feeding to avoid the problems of a very low nutrients enviroment...

Originally posted by austin93
I asked Chris Brightwell and he thought that it was dino's and not bacteria. I haven't dosed in a week or so but have seen no change. He thought it was too low nutrients which was causing problems for the corals being able to uptake nutrients. He recommended cutting light for a day and upping the ph as well as heavily feeding AA and other foods.

[austin93]

I test regularly with salifert tests. That is a good point about stopping the carbon. I will get back to it but at a reduced level.

[HighlandReefer]

Austin,

I PMed you with my address to send a sample. I am curious as well as to what this is. Like JMK stated, it could very well be a combination of organisms.

After I get the sample, I will be able to post pictures under the scope for review by anyone interested. It will be good for me to practice on these unkown organisms as well.

[austin93]

I will get it out next week.

[thorsky]

I'm seeing something on my rocks that may be similar. Pics is attached. The circled area is about 2" of rock to give you a scale perspective. It's barely visible to the naked eye and looks to be a coating about 1mm thick. Is this the same...or any idea what it could be?

[HighlandReefer]

Austin,

Sorry I did not get back to you right away. Been on vacation.

The sample you sent me is a cyanobacteria (IMO). This is a look at it at 1600X:

[tmz]

Nice work Cliff. Great photo. Hope you do more of these,

[HighlandReefer]

Thanks Tom.

The microscope certainly helps in IDing these type pests. That said, using methods for controlling cyano should help in controlling this pest. If everything else fails, then using an Erythromycin product may help also.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is a quote by Boomer from a prior thread about fighting cyano:

"Some added thoughts from over the years from many

The only known fish to eat Cyano is Amblygobius stethophthalmus and it needs to be the real one not its close relative that is often Mis-ID with it.

A 2- 3 month scheme

1. Water changes. 25% weekly.

2. Bare bottom refugium only for cheato nutrient export and not for critters.

3. Siphon, sump, refugium, etc. every week during water change and clean all filter you have.

4. Blow off all the Cyano and settled stuff you can so it can be siphoned off.

5. Clean out skimmer and cup every week.

6. Carbon, 1 cup per 50 gallons / 2 wks. Try to use ROX

7. GFO -HC , change every month.

8. Purigen, every month

9. Soak frozen food in RO/DI and discard water before use. This is especially true for brine shrimp. Matter of fact I use to pour off the water, and then fill it back up, to repeat it until there was only whole brine shrimp in the container.

10. Read what is in the food and look for things low in phosphates.

11. Keep the pH in the very low 8's or very high 7's, as Cyano will out compete other algae's in higher pH water.

12. The # 1 limiting nutrient for Cyano is N, not P based on studies in various microbiology texts.

13. During these water changes and blowing stuff off and siphoning it up run a Diatom filter with a second cake of PAC (Powdered activated carbon)."

14. Increase water flow where Cyano are growing, as they do not like high currents.

15. Shutting of all lights, almost total darkness for 48 hr. every few days.

Last resort is Chemi-Clean by Boyd (Erythromyacin based product).

99.9 % of the time if nothing eats it and it looks like yours it is Cyano.