Bryopsis vs. Elevated pH

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 12:27 PM

Has anyone used the elevated pH method to kill off bryopsis? I've had the pH pretty consistently 8.5-8.6 for about 10 days now. The algae has turn a dark greenish brown color and I haven't really noticed much growth to speak of in the past several days. Do I basically just start ripping it out and assume that the damage is done and it won't regenerate? Is there something else I need to do to make sure it doesn't recover and grow back? I plan to keep the pH up until at least this coming weekend to make sure that crap is dead and gone. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 02:07 PM

bump...these things get buried fast...

stingythingy45 · 11/23/2009, 02:13 PM

Never heard of elevated PH doing anything for bryopsis.
Only elevated levels of magnesium in the 1500 ppm range being useful to eradicate bryopsis.And that has worked for me in the past.

IslandCrow · 11/23/2009, 02:24 PM

That's interesting. I don't seem to remember hearing of anyone else using elevated PH (though that's certainly not to say it hasn't been done). The levels you're keeping don't seem to be all that excessively high either. How are you keeping those levels? I mostly ask because the method you're using may also have something to do with the death of the bryopsis. Kind of like how it's thought that it's not the high magnesium itself that has worked for some people, but something in the magnesium supplement.

As far as whether or not to manually remove the algae, personally I would. First off, as the algae decays, it's going to release the nitrates and phosphates it was storing back into the water to feed more algae (that whole circle of life thing). And of course, as you said, it may not be entirely dead, so removing it may help keep it from coming back. Anyway, I'd certainly like to hear how this goes for you and whether or not this is something others have done and had similar results.

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 02:35 PM

I got the idea from Anthony Calfo's "slurry method" he talked about on threads here and WWM on the topic of bryopsis. It seems to be his go to and he knows a lot more than I do. To keep the pH up I'm using a dose of Kalk in the morning/evening to keep it as close to 8.6 as possible. I'm also monitoring Ca, Mg, and alkalinity to ensure everything is kept in check. The hard part has been finding the balance between the Ca not getting too high and the pH staying up.

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 02:39 PM

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic67434-13-1.aspx

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/kalkh20faq2.htm

s_kelley · 11/23/2009, 02:40 PM

Very interesting, never read anything on this method before.

Ganzel · 11/23/2009, 03:09 PM

isn't playing with ph risky for corals and fish?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/23/2009, 04:04 PM

It may be less risky than adding an unknown toxin via Tech M.

That said, I too have not heard of anyone especially successful using pH to deal with bryopsis, but it might work by depriving it and possibly other photosynthetic organisms of CO2 (which is what happens at high pH).

pH 8.5 is not s problem for reef tanks.

Ganzel · 11/23/2009, 04:08 PM

and you have to keep it at 8.5 for how long?

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 04:13 PM

It can be, which is why the pH was raised from 8.2-8.6 over the course of a couple days. I don't know that you have to but I was cautious. A pH of 8.5-8.6 is within the range normally found in the ocean, not ideal but not out of range, so my understanding is that it's not harmful to most organisms. That's not to say you wouldn't experience any issues with some inhabitants. Anything is possible and I imagine some sps might not take kindly to the rise. My xenia actually took a couple days to open back up and look happy again but that's about it. The only other corals I currently have in the tank in any case are just the xenia, some anthelia, nephthea, kenya tree and a small turbinaria. I even added the turbinaria in the last few days and acclimated to the elevated pH and it seems fine. I added the frag since it was damaged and I didn't think it was going to make it but it seems to be bouncing back. I read a couple papers that suggest that the elevated pH levels will increase the rates of calcification and decrease photosynthesis. With this method I wasn't surprised by the increased calcification since I have a high level of Ca and I have noticed an increase in coralline growth in the last week. I'm assuming the effect on photosynthesis is part of the cause for the decline of the Bryopsis as well.

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 04:17 PM

In one of the articles Calfo recommends about 2-3 weeks I believe. I'll post some pictures of the progression thus far. There has been a definite change in the appearance of the algae. It has gone from bright green to a darker greenish brown.

Randy: that's not too encouraging that you've never heard of this method having much success, haha

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/23/2009, 05:09 PM

Well, I'd have to also say I've never gone looking for remedies for bryopsis.

jflick345 · 11/23/2009, 05:12 PM

haha, touche

HighlandReefer · 11/23/2009, 05:38 PM

I am interested in your results using high pH to control Bryopsis.

What Randy has stated seems to be backed by this research:

Bicarbonate uptake and utilization in marine macroalgae
http://journals.cambridge.org/action...line&aid=47535

Abstract

Several macroalgae from the Swedish West Coast (11 green, 5 red and 11 brown algal species) and two Ulva spp. from the Mediterranean were tested for mechanisms of HCO3[minus sign] utilization. In all except one (Palmaria palmata), photosynthesis supported by inorganic carbon (Ci) at pH 8.7 was rapidly and substantially (>50%) inhibited by acetazolamide (AZ), an inhibitor of extracellular carbonic anhydrase activity. This suggests that extracellular dehydration followed by uptake of the CO2 formed is an important component of the HCO3[minus sign] utilization mechanism(s) of these algae. In representatives of most of the green algal genera, e.g. Enteromorpha, Ulva, Chaetomorpha and Monostroma, a specific inhibitor response could be induced. This response, a sensitivity to the anion exchange inhibitor 4,4[prime prime or minute]-diisothiocyanatostilbene-2,2[prime prime or minute]-disulphonate (DIDS) in the presence of AZ, is characteristic of an additional mechanism of HCO3[minus sign] utilization, a direct import of HCO3[minus sign] across the plasma membrane, which has been previously described only for some Ulva spp. and Enteromorpha intestinalis. The DIDS sensitivity could be induced in several ways, all involving a potential shortage of the supply of CO2 for photosynthesis: through photosynthesis at high pH, through growth in strong light and nutrient-rich seawater, or through photosynthesis in the presence of AZ. Induction of photosynthesis at high pH (which is a specific feature of green macroalgae) was not always accompanied by a development of this specific DIDS sensitivity; it occurred in Chaetomorpha melagonium but not in C. linum. For Ulva lactuca cultivated in natural seawater (in continuous moderate irradiance), induction of DIDS sensitivity by high pH treatment was successful all year round, except during a period in late August. The results thus suggest that green macroalgae capable of developing photosynthesis at high pH are also capable of developing a DIDS-sensitive mechanism for HCO3[minus sign] uptake, but that some additional conditions (other than low CO2 availability) must be fulfilled. The ability to dehydrate extracellular HCO3[minus sign] still remained after induction of the direct HCO3[minus sign] uptake, and the two mechanisms for HCO3[minus sign] utilization may operate independently of one another. In fact the response to DIDS was more pronounced after the addition of AZ. The possibility that the results are related to a plasticity of the HCO3[minus sign]-utilizing mechanisms of green macroalgae is discussed. Neither red nor brown macroalgae showed any sensitivity to DIDS in the presence of AZ.

(Received June 23 1998)
(Accepted November 4 1998)

jflick345 · 12/02/2009, 10:47 AM

Sorry it took me so long to get these pics uploaded. It was a hectic week and I forgot all about it. I do have a nice progression now though.

11/10/09

11/20/09

jflick345 · 12/02/2009, 10:53 AM

Today, 12/2/09

I did manual removal of the algae on the left side of the tank on Saturday and haven't noticed really any regrowth since then. I missed a few spots but it's hard to scrub it all off these rocks with how porous they are. I'll hopefully be getting to the rest of it this evening. The only adverse effect I've noticed is my pulsating xenia has started to shrivel and some of the heads have melted away.

IslandCrow · 12/02/2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

The only adverse effect I've noticed is my pulsating xenia has started to shrivel and some of the heads have melted away.

Some would consider this an added bonus

losthere · 12/02/2009, 11:48 AM

I raised my mag using Tech M to kill bryopsis and it worked great. No adverse affect on my corals. I also threw in a yellow tang, as I heard they will sometimes eat the bryopsis and it did, but it only seemed to eat it as it started dying from the mag. But my tank was infested with it and I havent seen any for about a year. Keeping your nutrients in check will help slow its growth while you are trying to kill it.

TeePee · 12/02/2009, 11:50 AM

Please keep us updated. I'm currently riding the "unknown toxin in Tech-M" train to go after my dreaded bryopsis!

jflick345 · 12/02/2009, 12:24 PM

I guess I should also add that I've also only been doing 2 relatively light feedings a day plus heavy skimming this whole time. My Vertex is a champ and I've been emptying out some pretty thick nasty gunk a couple times a week.

TeePee · 12/02/2009, 12:36 PM

Jflick, is your avatar from Pennekamp State Park down in Key Largo? I really enjoy it down there.

jflick345 · 12/02/2009, 01:07 PM

Yeah, it's the Christ of the Abyss statue. First site I ever got to SCUBA dive and definitely still one of my favorite dive sites.

TeePee · 12/02/2009, 03:04 PM

We snorkle down there as often as we can. The life around the statue (and pretty much all over the entire park) is incredible.

poolkeeper1 · 12/02/2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

It may be less risky than adding an unknown toxin via Tech M.

That said, I too have not heard of anyone especially successful using pH to deal with bryopsis, but it might work by depriving it and possibly other photosynthetic organisms of CO2 (which is what happens at high pH).

pH 8.5 is not s problem for reef tanks.

After trying all other methods to rid my tank of Bryopsis I went with the Tech-M Magnesium method and actually only added two 16oz bottles over a period of a week never thinking that It would be enough to kill It In a 300gal system.
While waiting for more to be shipped to me the Bryopsis has completely disintegrated and there Is no sign of It at all left In my tank.
With around 100 SPS colonies I saw no Ill effects to any of them, Nor to any other species or any of my fish.
I was very weary to try this but after all else had failed and It was spreading all over my tank I'm glad I did and no harm done. I will leave the high Mag level for another week or so then start water changes to lower the Mag to NSW levels again.
I'm not sure of what they put In this product but It worked In my case when nothing else would
I also replaced my Membrane On my RODI at the same time I dosed this product, But have not done any water changes yet only top off water was effected.
Also not sure how high my levels actually are because I ran out of the test kit during the process, What I don't know may be a good thing

Bill

11/23/2009, 12:27 PM	#1
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	Bryopsis vs. Elevated pH Has anyone used the elevated pH method to kill off bryopsis? I've had the pH pretty consistently 8.5-8.6 for about 10 days now. The algae has turn a dark greenish brown color and I haven't really noticed much growth to speak of in the past several days. Do I basically just start ripping it out and assume that the damage is done and it won't regenerate? Is there something else I need to do to make sure it doesn't recover and grow back? I plan to keep the pH up until at least this coming weekend to make sure that crap is dead and gone. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

11/23/2009, 02:13 PM	#3
stingythingy45 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: MA Posts: 3,296	Never heard of elevated PH doing anything for bryopsis. Only elevated levels of magnesium in the 1500 ppm range being useful to eradicate bryopsis.And that has worked for me in the past. __________________ Bob Current Tank Info: 90 gallon,mixed Reef,2-250 watt Optix 3 pendants(Phoenix 14K)2-54 watt T5 Super actnics ,ASM G-2 Gate/recirc mods,70 gal. basement sump,20L ref

11/23/2009, 02:24 PM	#4
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	That's interesting. I don't seem to remember hearing of anyone else using elevated PH (though that's certainly not to say it hasn't been done). The levels you're keeping don't seem to be all that excessively high either. How are you keeping those levels? I mostly ask because the method you're using may also have something to do with the death of the bryopsis. Kind of like how it's thought that it's not the high magnesium itself that has worked for some people, but something in the magnesium supplement. As far as whether or not to manually remove the algae, personally I would. First off, as the algae decays, it's going to release the nitrates and phosphates it was storing back into the water to feed more algae (that whole circle of life thing). And of course, as you said, it may not be entirely dead, so removing it may help keep it from coming back. Anyway, I'd certainly like to hear how this goes for you and whether or not this is something others have done and had similar results. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

11/23/2009, 03:09 PM	#8
Ganzel Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada Posts: 67	isn't playing with ph risky for corals and fish? __________________ Reefer Current Tank Info: 6 ft, 130g display, 70g sump, 3x MH 400W 20 000 K XM

11/23/2009, 04:04 PM	#9
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	It may be less risky than adding an unknown toxin via Tech M. That said, I too have not heard of anyone especially successful using pH to deal with bryopsis, but it might work by depriving it and possibly other photosynthetic organisms of CO2 (which is what happens at high pH). pH 8.5 is not s problem for reef tanks. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/23/2009, 02:07 PM	#2
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	bump...these things get buried fast...

11/23/2009, 02:35 PM	#5
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	I got the idea from Anthony Calfo's "slurry method" he talked about on threads here and WWM on the topic of bryopsis. It seems to be his go to and he knows a lot more than I do. To keep the pH up I'm using a dose of Kalk in the morning/evening to keep it as close to 8.6 as possible. I'm also monitoring Ca, Mg, and alkalinity to ensure everything is kept in check. The hard part has been finding the balance between the Ca not getting too high and the pH staying up.

11/23/2009, 02:39 PM	#6
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic67434-13-1.aspx http://www.wetwebmedia.com/kalkh20faq2.htm

11/23/2009, 02:40 PM	#7
s_kelley Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: east taunton, ma Posts: 288	Very interesting, never read anything on this method before.

11/23/2009, 04:08 PM	#10
Ganzel Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada Posts: 67	and you have to keep it at 8.5 for how long? __________________ Reefer Current Tank Info: 6 ft, 130g display, 70g sump, 3x MH 400W 20 000 K XM

11/23/2009, 04:13 PM	#11
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	It can be, which is why the pH was raised from 8.2-8.6 over the course of a couple days. I don't know that you have to but I was cautious. A pH of 8.5-8.6 is within the range normally found in the ocean, not ideal but not out of range, so my understanding is that it's not harmful to most organisms. That's not to say you wouldn't experience any issues with some inhabitants. Anything is possible and I imagine some sps might not take kindly to the rise. My xenia actually took a couple days to open back up and look happy again but that's about it. The only other corals I currently have in the tank in any case are just the xenia, some anthelia, nephthea, kenya tree and a small turbinaria. I even added the turbinaria in the last few days and acclimated to the elevated pH and it seems fine. I added the frag since it was damaged and I didn't think it was going to make it but it seems to be bouncing back. I read a couple papers that suggest that the elevated pH levels will increase the rates of calcification and decrease photosynthesis. With this method I wasn't surprised by the increased calcification since I have a high level of Ca and I have noticed an increase in coralline growth in the last week. I'm assuming the effect on photosynthesis is part of the cause for the decline of the Bryopsis as well.

11/23/2009, 04:17 PM	#12
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	In one of the articles Calfo recommends about 2-3 weeks I believe. I'll post some pictures of the progression thus far. There has been a definite change in the appearance of the algae. It has gone from bright green to a darker greenish brown. Randy: that's not too encouraging that you've never heard of this method having much success, haha

11/23/2009, 05:09 PM	#13
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Well, I'd have to also say I've never gone looking for remedies for bryopsis. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/23/2009, 05:12 PM	#14
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	haha, touche

11/23/2009, 05:38 PM	#15
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	I am interested in your results using high pH to control Bryopsis. What Randy has stated seems to be backed by this research: Bicarbonate uptake and utilization in marine macroalgae http://journals.cambridge.org/action...line&aid=47535 Abstract Several macroalgae from the Swedish West Coast (11 green, 5 red and 11 brown algal species) and two Ulva spp. from the Mediterranean were tested for mechanisms of HCO3[minus sign] utilization. In all except one (Palmaria palmata), photosynthesis supported by inorganic carbon (Ci) at pH 8.7 was rapidly and substantially (>50%) inhibited by acetazolamide (AZ), an inhibitor of extracellular carbonic anhydrase activity. This suggests that extracellular dehydration followed by uptake of the CO2 formed is an important component of the HCO3[minus sign] utilization mechanism(s) of these algae. In representatives of most of the green algal genera, e.g. Enteromorpha, Ulva, Chaetomorpha and Monostroma, a specific inhibitor response could be induced. This response, a sensitivity to the anion exchange inhibitor 4,4[prime prime or minute]-diisothiocyanatostilbene-2,2[prime prime or minute]-disulphonate (DIDS) in the presence of AZ, is characteristic of an additional mechanism of HCO3[minus sign] utilization, a direct import of HCO3[minus sign] across the plasma membrane, which has been previously described only for some Ulva spp. and Enteromorpha intestinalis. The DIDS sensitivity could be induced in several ways, all involving a potential shortage of the supply of CO2 for photosynthesis: through photosynthesis at high pH, through growth in strong light and nutrient-rich seawater, or through photosynthesis in the presence of AZ. Induction of photosynthesis at high pH (which is a specific feature of green macroalgae) was not always accompanied by a development of this specific DIDS sensitivity; it occurred in Chaetomorpha melagonium but not in C. linum. For Ulva lactuca cultivated in natural seawater (in continuous moderate irradiance), induction of DIDS sensitivity by high pH treatment was successful all year round, except during a period in late August. The results thus suggest that green macroalgae capable of developing photosynthesis at high pH are also capable of developing a DIDS-sensitive mechanism for HCO3[minus sign] uptake, but that some additional conditions (other than low CO2 availability) must be fulfilled. The ability to dehydrate extracellular HCO3[minus sign] still remained after induction of the direct HCO3[minus sign] uptake, and the two mechanisms for HCO3[minus sign] utilization may operate independently of one another. In fact the response to DIDS was more pronounced after the addition of AZ. The possibility that the results are related to a plasticity of the HCO3[minus sign]-utilizing mechanisms of green macroalgae is discussed. Neither red nor brown macroalgae showed any sensitivity to DIDS in the presence of AZ. (Received June 23 1998) (Accepted November 4 1998) __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

12/02/2009, 10:47 AM	#16
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	Sorry it took me so long to get these pics uploaded. It was a hectic week and I forgot all about it. I do have a nice progression now though. 11/10/09 11/20/09

12/02/2009, 10:53 AM	#17
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	Today, 12/2/09 I did manual removal of the algae on the left side of the tank on Saturday and haven't noticed really any regrowth since then. I missed a few spots but it's hard to scrub it all off these rocks with how porous they are. I'll hopefully be getting to the rest of it this evening. The only adverse effect I've noticed is my pulsating xenia has started to shrivel and some of the heads have melted away.

12/02/2009, 11:48 AM	#19
losthere Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Central California Posts: 303	I raised my mag using Tech M to kill bryopsis and it worked great. No adverse affect on my corals. I also threw in a yellow tang, as I heard they will sometimes eat the bryopsis and it did, but it only seemed to eat it as it started dying from the mag. But my tank was infested with it and I havent seen any for about a year. Keeping your nutrients in check will help slow its growth while you are trying to kill it.

12/02/2009, 11:50 AM	#20
TeePee Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: VA Posts: 83	Please keep us updated. I'm currently riding the "unknown toxin in Tech-M" train to go after my dreaded bryopsis!

12/02/2009, 12:24 PM	#21
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	I guess I should also add that I've also only been doing 2 relatively light feedings a day plus heavy skimming this whole time. My Vertex is a champ and I've been emptying out some pretty thick nasty gunk a couple times a week.

12/02/2009, 12:36 PM	#22
TeePee Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: VA Posts: 83	Jflick, is your avatar from Pennekamp State Park down in Key Largo? I really enjoy it down there.

12/02/2009, 01:07 PM	#23
jflick345 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 884	Yeah, it's the Christ of the Abyss statue. First site I ever got to SCUBA dive and definitely still one of my favorite dive sites.

12/02/2009, 03:04 PM	#24
TeePee Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: VA Posts: 83	We snorkle down there as often as we can. The life around the statue (and pretty much all over the entire park) is incredible.