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Old 12/04/2009, 07:58 PM   #1
Chipie
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Vodka sugar and vinegar

Hi,
I'm trying to find a place where i can calculate how much of VSV to use in my 170g system. Also what's the recipe for those 3 carbon source(how much of each to make the mixture)?
Thanks


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Old 12/04/2009, 09:10 PM   #2
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http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achi...perimentation/

For the dosing that is listed I would take the added precaution and use at most 0.1mL per 25 gallons of vsv (~0.7mL for your initial dose).


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Old 12/04/2009, 09:20 PM   #3
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Genetics, do you have an alternate dosage recommendation? Glucose rather than sucrose? or both to make a 4 carbon dose?


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Old 12/05/2009, 07:28 AM   #4
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I would take the added precaution and use at most 0.1mL per 25 gallons of vsv (~0.7mL for your initial dose).

That seems quite low. What ill effect are you trying to avoid?


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Old 12/05/2009, 08:43 AM   #5
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Isn't the recipe 0.5ml per 20g of water? That would mean about 4ml for 170g right?


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Old 12/05/2009, 09:59 AM   #6
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Chipie, yes that is what it recommends on the website. Many people follow that dosing and it works out great for them.

Randy, 4mL of VSV is higher than what some people need as a final dose. Adding more than what is needed is not something I recommend. I've always been worried about the initial dosages. Many people were condemning adding organics to their reef tanks because the amounts were just too much upfront (well that is my hypothesis). Using smaller amounts upfront has seemed to curve this problem.

I would love to understand the exact mechanism that is resulting in this rapid decline when larger doses are first introduced. Is it solely O2 consumption? Or is it the result of dynamic alterations of the dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations resulting in a peak O2 depletion? Is it possible that some tanks have built up DOCs that should be easily utilized but are not (unused labile DOCs)? Normally labile DOCs have a high turnover rate in the ocean. However, the ocean is a much larger ecosystem than our reefs. What if adding something simple like sugar, ethanol, glycerol, or acetic acid is enough to cause these unused labile DOCs to be utilized and result in the massive bacterial blooms and fish issues when dosing initially?

rishma, I was really happy with glucose. However, HighlandReefer had just tried it out on his tank and noticed that higher doses seemed to cause brown matting growth.


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Old 12/05/2009, 10:03 AM   #7
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Ok thanks. I will try with a lower dose first(half at 2ml) and see how it works. If it doesn't, i'll raise the dose later on.Better safe than sorry i guess. Thanks a lot for the help all of you.


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Old 12/05/2009, 03:09 PM   #8
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Nate,

The amount of sugar or glucose you add to your mix is not very much compared to the 1/4 teaspoon I was dosing every three days. Certainly dosing sugar or glucose by themselves can be overdosed much easier then vodka or vinegar. IME, glucose can be overdose easier than sugar.

I started the VSVVc a few days ago. So far everything is looking good.


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Old 12/05/2009, 03:16 PM   #9
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The amount of sugar or glucose you add to your mix is not very much compared to the 1/4 teaspoon I was dosing every three days. Certainly dosing sugar or glucose by themselves can be overdosed much easier then vodka or vinegar. IME, glucose can be overdose easier than sugar.

Cliff from your observations could you now conclude without a doubt different organics lead to variations in bacterial growth? If so would you hypothesize that using a multimodal approach with organics could potentially offset any negative detrimental effects that could arise from a single source in high abundance?

I started the VSVVc a few days ago. So far everything is looking good.


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Old 12/05/2009, 03:28 PM   #10
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I did not ID any bacteria, so there is doubt IMHO.

When I dosed vinegar, I developed a white bacterial film on my glass and some on the rock when I added too much.

When I dosed sugar the bacteria was a dark brown.

I did not dose glucose very long at all, but the bacteria was brown like with sucrose.

Also when I added too much sugar and glucose I saw an increase in the numbers of the dinoflagellates in the biofilm.

Too me, there does seem to be a difference in the bacterial films produced by sugar, glucose and vinegar.

I need more time with the VSVVc and I have ordered some aspartic acid which I plan on testing later on.


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Old 12/05/2009, 03:36 PM   #11
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Ok but i don't see anywhere the amount i should be using on day 2,3,4 etc Can you help me with this?


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Old 12/05/2009, 03:49 PM   #12
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FWIW,

Here is Genetics' recipe which I use at the same rate and schedule as when dosing vodka dosing in his article:

Vodka Dosing...Distilled!
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...nftt/index.php

I'm not sure if the glass box article uses the same amounts of VSV.

Genetics' recipe:

750mL - 40 proof Vodka
250mL - 5% Vinegar
1tsp - Sugar
1tsp - Vitamin C

"I'm much lighter on the vinegar, sugar, and vitamin c then what I have seen from other dosages."


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Old 12/06/2009, 08:34 PM   #13
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Hey Genetics what are you using for your vitamin C source? Also is there a thread that talks more about your VSVVc recipe?


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Old 12/06/2009, 09:09 PM   #14
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what'scoral, there isn't anything concrete on how to make it. My suggestion was to take the common VSV mix and cut back on the sugar while increase VC. I was using in HighlandReefer's post right above yours.

Genetics' recipe:

750mL - 40 proof Vodka
250mL - 5% Vinegar
1tsp - Sugar
1tsp - Vitamin C


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Old 12/06/2009, 10:16 PM   #15
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Ic..But what source are you getting your vitamin C from? Tablets or powder or something over the counter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genetics View Post
what'scoral, there isn't anything concrete on how to make it. My suggestion was to take the common VSV mix and cut back on the sugar while increase VC. I was using in HighlandReefer's post right above yours.

Genetics' recipe:

750mL - 40 proof Vodka
250mL - 5% Vinegar
1tsp - Sugar
1tsp - Vitamin C



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Old 12/06/2009, 10:18 PM   #16
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is buffered Ascorbic acid acceptable for vc?


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Old 12/06/2009, 11:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by what'scoral View Post
Ic..But what source are you getting your vitamin C from? Tablets or powder or something over the counter?
Sometimes I work my way around questions without answering them.

Buffered sodium ascorbate in powder form and can be found here;

http://www.iherb.com/nutribiotic-sod...4-g/10178?at=0


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Old 12/08/2009, 09:09 AM   #18
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I'm thinking of adding Vitamin C to my current Vodka/Vinegar dosing. Currently I'm doing 10:1 Vodka:Vinegar, but I'll probably change that. I've avoided sucrose/glucose all together because of the possibility of issues with corals.

Here are a few calculations I did on the carbon content of each molecule. Can someone check these?

Vodka (ethanol):
C2H6O - Molar Mass = 46.07 g/mol
C2 = 12.0107 * 2 = 24.0214 / 46.07 = 52% carbon by weight
40 Proof Vodka = 20% alcohol / vol = .2*52 = 10.5% carbon by volume

Vinegar (acetic acid):
C2H4O2 - Molar Mass = 60.05 g/mol
C2 = 12.0107 * 2= 24.0214 / 60.05 = 40% carbon by weight
5% acetic acid distilled vinegar = .05 * 40 = 2% carbon by volume

Vitamin C (as sodium ascorbate)
C6H7NaO6 - Molar Mass = 198.11 g/mol
C6 = 12.0107 * 6 = 72.0642 / 198.11 = 36% carbon by weight
1/4 tsp (1.3g) sodium ascorbate powder (iHerb) has 1112mg VC and 137mg, which has some impurities apparently (96% pure) = 36*.96 = 34.5% carbon by volume
1/4 tsp (1.3g) = 1.2322304 ml
1 tsp = 4.93 ml

Hopefully the molar masses of various molecules are equatable like I did it above.

It looks like Genetic's recipe is 606:202:4.93 Vodka:Vinegar:VC. Corrected for carbon density this would be more like 606*10.5:202*2:4.93*34.5 = 6363:404:170 in actual carbon atoms. I realize that this is arbitrary and based off what other people found to be good, but it's definitely skewed in the vodka direction.

It's important to note that 40 proof vodka was used.


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Old 12/08/2009, 06:31 PM   #19
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Jon, yes my dosing is heavily skewed towards vodka. This was due to using vodka at first and then wondering about the effects of other additives. I had no issues with vodka by itself and vinegar itself could easily go much higher in addition. I liked VC and sugar but only in small amounts. For best results all you need is to find what works for you and stick with it.


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Old 12/10/2009, 07:48 PM   #20
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Happy to report that i've been dosing for 6 days now and my corals seem to love it. They look much better and have started to grow again.
I tested my alk tonight and it's at a little over 7(API test). Should i try to keep it at that level or should i raise it a bit ? At 8 maybe?


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Old 12/10/2009, 10:43 PM   #21
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The most important part of alk is to keep it consistent. Large swings in variation can cause issues. I wouldn't let it get less than 7 and 8 seems reasonable.


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Old 12/11/2009, 12:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipie View Post
Happy to report that i've been dosing for 6 days now and my corals seem to love it. They look much better and have started to grow again.
I tested my alk tonight and it's at a little over 7(API test). Should i try to keep it at that level or should i raise it a bit ? At 8 maybe?
Chipie,

How much are you dosing a day? can you post me your recipe. I tried just vodka alone and didn't see any positive effect except on me .....

Cheers!


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