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Unread 01/01/2010, 04:51 PM   #1
68551
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Waterchange water advanced question

I read an interesting theory that I have never heard before that the premixed saltwater you have ready for waterchanges should have a bucket or 2 of current tank water mixed with it for a couple days prior to a waterchange....The idea is that the bacteria has a chance to multiply so you have better (more matured) water going in your tank with each waterchange....
Any thoughts????


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Unread 01/01/2010, 04:58 PM   #2
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I have read that most of the microbial population found in the average tank are not free swimmers, those that are will canibalize each other for food as the ASW will have little in the way of nutrients to support them? I'm certainly not the definitive authority so I'm interested as to how the collective views this concept.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 05:09 PM   #3
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Interesting, it may be better answered in the Reef Chemistry forum though. Calling Boomer or Randy!!!!


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Unread 01/01/2010, 05:52 PM   #4
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If the water change is to reduce nutrients and buildup of whatever in the water, is it not counterproductive to add old tank water to the new water prematurely.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:03 PM   #5
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I wish I could find the article again but it was said to help "season" the water & to make less of a transition to the main tank.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:24 PM   #6
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I can't see how this would be worth doing.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:37 PM   #7
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I do so much reading I couldn't remember where I found the info but I have found it....On page 94 (middle column half way down under Salt Mix Rehydration) of THE CONCIENTIOUS MARIE AQUARIST Robert Fenner states "I recommend mixing your synthetic seawater a week or more in advance of use....I also like to add a few cups of "live" system water, inoculaating the mix with microbes and enzimes from an established aquarium. This will go a long way toward readying the new water biologically and chemically for use."


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:44 PM   #8
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Could it be that besides adding some microbial content, the old salt water helps reduce the stress of the water change by reducing the ORP a little.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:48 PM   #9
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It seems to me that the more similar the changeout water & the tank water are the easier it would be on corals & fish when it is added...I"m not sure if the system water should be added right before the water change or when you mix up the water at the start


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Unread 01/01/2010, 06:56 PM   #10
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Just a routine water change has never caused noticable stress to my system. Why fix something that isn't broken? I know, just trying to improve upon a known process.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 07:37 PM   #11
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I think this is bogus personally. As said above, very little (if not none) of the microbial population we care so much about is suspended in the water column. You are going to have far greater benefits with oxygenating the water and getting it at the same emperature as that in your system IMO.


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Unread 01/01/2010, 07:50 PM   #12
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Do you se any benefits at all to adding tank water to the waterchange water if all of the other parameters in the water are the same???


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Unread 01/01/2010, 08:01 PM   #13
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You are only makeing a 10% change so this process will not have a signifgant difference in you r water change keep water temp and salinity the same as the tank and make your water change and all will be great!


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Unread 01/01/2010, 08:05 PM   #14
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You are missing the point....All things being equal....Same temp, same salinity, same ph etc,etc....Do you see ANY merit in doing the above?????
Why would Robert Fenner suggest this approach????


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Unread 01/01/2010, 09:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68551 View Post
You are missing the point....All things being equal....Same temp, same salinity, same ph etc,etc....Do you see ANY merit in doing the above?????
Why would Robert Fenner suggest this approach????
Well, if all things were equal, then there would be no merit in doing the water change at all, right? I mean, what would the point be, since you'd be replacing water with exactly identical water. The very idea behind a water change entails that the water you change is chemically different than the water you replace it with.


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Unread 01/02/2010, 06:32 AM   #16
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No I don't mean that the 2 waters are exactly the same....Of course there are impurities in the tank water that need to be removed (organics, fish urine & poo & depleated minerals) My "all things being equal" comment was regarding the physical parameters of both waters with regards to temp, sg, & alk.....Whch brings me back to my 3 main questions.....

1. Do you see ANY benefit to adding some tank water to your waterchange water?
2. If it does nothing then why would Fenner suggest it???
3. If you see a benefit would it be better to add it when first mixing the water & salt (in the Brute container) or right before a waterchange?


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Unread 01/02/2010, 07:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68551 View Post
Robert Fenner states "...I also like to add a few cups of "live" system water, inoculaating the mix with microbes and enzimes from an established aquarium. This will go a long way toward readying the new water biologically and chemically for use."
OK, the issue here seems to be in the italicized passage. As other posters have pointed out, this sounds like BS. The water, once mixed with salt mix and adjusted to the few major parameters that reefers think are important, is biologically and chemically ready for use. Plus, these "microbes and enzymes" are already in the system, so why take them out only to add them back? (Yeah, they'll reproduce in the Brute can...okay...uh huh...)

Why would Fenner say this, then? You could email him at wetwebmedia, but (no offense intended) I don't think that he will give an answer that is any less vague. I'd enjoy being proved wrong on this, though


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Unread 01/02/2010, 07:37 AM   #18
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"Why would Fenner say this, then? You could email him at wetwebmedia, but (no offense intended) I don't think that he will give an answer that is any less vague. I'd enjoy being proved wrong on this, though"

I have posted to WetWeb as you suggested & will add any replies.....Sue


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Unread 01/02/2010, 08:56 AM   #19
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I think the extra step makes water changes more of a hassle. You are adding a whole conditioning step that is unnecessary and time consuming if you really need two wait a day or two. The net result would be fewer water changes which would negate any minimal benefit this would provide.

While in theory this may have some small merit, in practice its a waste of time. I don't care what else Fenner has to say about it its a poor recommendation.


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Unread 01/02/2010, 02:11 PM   #20
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Follow this link for the thread & posts in Wet Web...
http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2647


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Last edited by 68551; 01/02/2010 at 02:17 PM.
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Unread 01/02/2010, 04:12 PM   #21
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2 points:
-- emailing Mr. Fenner will be more productive than another forum debate. You can email him from the front page of WWM.com, if things are like they were last time I visited the site.

-- "it will take off the antiseptic edge to the water"?!?! Maybe after the unjustified ad hominem attack on Frogmanx82 I was ready to be critical, but...


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Unread 01/02/2010, 10:28 PM   #22
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Tried to find a way to get this to the WWM crew so hopefully Bob will give us an explanation soon....


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Unread 01/02/2010, 10:40 PM   #23
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Man does that ever sound like a pain in #$$. I guess if you did a larger water change I could see the need to condition the water but small water changes would be better IMO.
I do a 8-10% water change every Sunday. Keeps trace elements line-up and everything is happy. It takes me 20 mins max every week to do a 10% water change and scrape the glass a do a little coral inspecting.


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Unread 01/02/2010, 10:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68551 View Post
... Inhave never heard before that the premixed saltwater you have ready for waterchanges should have a bucket or 2 of current tank water mixed with it for a couple days prior to a waterchange
...
How is this conversation even occuring without discussing the VOLUMES of seed water needed with respect to the target volume of water to be changed?

In my tank "two buckets" of the smallest possible buckets would likely exceed the total volume of my daily 0.5g water change. At the same time 2 buckets (of any reasonable size) be likely meaningless in a very large (100's of gallons) water change.

Apologies for picking nits... But the fact is that any discussion of the value of such a technique is difficult to divorce from the ratio the seed water to the target volume of water to be changed.

That is to be excepted by the opinion that no ratio of seed water to changed water, no matter how large matters (ex. 99 or 100%).


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Unread 01/02/2010, 11:03 PM   #25
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regardless in ratios I still think many small water changes ( ie: once per week. 10%) is ideal for me. Seeding the water IMO is not necessary unless you are doing a large W. Change.


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