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Unread 01/29/2010, 11:20 PM   #1
Fb Joe
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Pure Calcium Gluconate dosing?

I have two bottles of Prescription grade 97.5% Calcium Gluconate.
The stuff retails for like $150
Freebie. Just wondering how i can dose it, if its a gel?
And if this is a good way to supplement calcium?


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Unread 01/30/2010, 02:20 AM   #2
dots
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Its a sugar based calcium supplement, which has if memory serves, a third of what Calcium Chloride provides in Calcium.

A lot of Calcium additives make a big deal about being Gluconate free, and that it doesn't seem to be specifically for this application, who knows what is in the other 2.5%?

Personally, I wouldn't risk it as it could cost more than $300 in troubles.....

But free is free, and perhaps Randy or Boomer will chime in if its safe "just to get rid of it" for freebie sake.....

BTW, Welcome to Reef Central....


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Unread 01/30/2010, 09:05 AM   #3
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It would be like dosing calcium acetate in that it will add calcium and a balanced amount of alkalinity, and will also drive bacterial growth and potentially reduce O2. If all of those are what you want, and it does not include other additives in it (as excipients, etc), it is a fine product for this purpose.

Just to be sure, this is calcium gluconate, not calcium polygluconate, right?


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Unread 01/30/2010, 09:06 AM   #4
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I discuss calcium acetate dosing here:

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

from it:

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar.16 When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:


CH3COO- (acetate) + 2 O2 ---> HCO3- + CO2 + H2O



This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate may also facilitate the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2)16 in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process (but this has not been demonstrated one way or the other). The equation below shows the process that could take place:



5 CH3COO- (acetate) + 8 NO3- --> 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH- + H2O



One of the sources of calcium acetate to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This products sells in the US for about $31.50/L. Consequently, it costs about $10.00 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for a tank with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero initial costs make it attractive for small tanks, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test2). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 10:28 AM   #5
Fb Joe
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Thanks randy for the quick response! Yes it is for sure Calcium gluconate, and the other 2.5% is a gel.

And i got the bottles for free :]
Im checking out the articles now.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 11:10 AM   #6
Randy Holmes-Farley
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To Reef Central

Sounds good.

Good luck.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 12:02 PM   #7
Fb Joe
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Okay so just to clarify Randy,
Calcium gluconate and acetate will fuel bacterial growth, like adding organic carbon to the system? So the results will be similar to adding a calcium supplement and vodka dosing?
I appreciate all the help.

And Dots, thanks much. Sorry for never introducing myself lol
I'm Joe over from my local club Tcmas. And I'm dosing a non reef tank to prevent loss of livestock.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 12:42 PM   #8
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Yes, that is correct.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 01:33 PM   #9
Fb Joe
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Thank you so much Randy, or do i call you Farley?
2 supplements for the price of one? well actually the price of none is perfect in my book.
BTW your even famous with us crazy reefers in MN
And i can see why! It's always nice to have help from a chemist. I'm looking up what the 2.5 gel is made out of, Should be easy as this is the only prescription of Cal Gluc that is available (its used for when you get acid on yourself, usually with a pH of lower than 3)
And I'm not too worried about the Gel, as I'll be mixing into RO thats pure, and i think just the Ca will dissolve.
I'll keep you posted


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Unread 01/30/2010, 01:36 PM   #10
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Randy is good.

Just make sure there isn't a lot of phosphate in the gel.

Thanks and good luck.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 05:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fb Joe View Post

And Dots, thanks much. Sorry for never introducing myself lol
I'm Joe over from my local club Tcmas. And I'm dosing a non reef tank to prevent loss of livestock.
No problem, happy to help

Is this a Fish Only tank? Have you found through testing you need to be adding Ca in the first place?

Most salt mixes will sustain the correct levels in a FOWLR system.





Thanks for the info Randy, I am always concerned about long term effects of using different additives.....like in the case of Mg, and buildups.


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Unread 01/30/2010, 07:15 PM   #12
Fb Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dots View Post
No problem, happy to help

Is this a Fish Only tank? Have you found through testing you need to be adding Ca in the first place?

Most salt mixes will sustain the correct levels in a FOWLR system.

Thanks for the info Randy, I am always concerned about long term effects of using different additives.....like in the case of Mg, and buildups.
Nope it's a reef tank :]
20 gallon long with 192w PC actinics and 250w MH mogul 15k bulb.
Beckett injection skimmer rated for 300+ gallons. Custom made by reef mania.
DIY HOB fuge.

I just always look for ways to make reefing cheaper :]
I have a FOWLR for a lionfish and two for purple spotted mantis shrimps.
I may or may not be breeding them (first to do so)


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Unread 01/30/2010, 09:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fb Joe View Post
And I'm dosing a non reef tank to prevent loss of livestock.

This is why I asked, just double checking....


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