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Old 01/30/2010, 02:02 PM   #1
Aquarist007
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The New Capn's Log Book-sites of interest on RC

This is the old log book that has been buried in the archives along with some really intersting and informative threads from the past. If you are not into reading long threads then I will start to repost some of the neat stuff that fellow hobbyists have posted to Reef Central

The archived log book

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1424845


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Old 01/30/2010, 02:04 PM   #2
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Flukes can be an invisible killer

Are your fish experiencing these symptons:
1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail.

4) Sudden loss of appetite. Fish was fine yesterday but today it’s not eating at all.

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing

Read more about it on this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1260067


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Old 01/30/2010, 02:08 PM   #3
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Deep Sand Bed -- Anatomy & Terminology

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A deep sand bed, or DSB for short, can be a useful addition to a saltwater aquarium, refugium, or even a remote bin. Tho based on a remarkably simple idea, DSB discussions can become enormously complex. The purpose of this article is to offer a generalized understanding of the core concepts and specific terminology. This is by no means the final word on the DSB, nor does it advocate anything more than educating the reader, but it can also serve as a guide to a more serious investigation.




There are several potential benefits and possible drawbacks to having a DSB. Most often their purpose is for nitrate reduction, so that is this article's focus, but that is not their only purpose, nor is a DSB the only means for achieving that goal. Not everyone uses a DSB and many have tried them with poor results. Some do use a DSB and have reported good results for a decade or more. There is substantial disagreement as to why some succeed and others fail. Over the years, some general rules of thumb have evolved, but they should not be mistaken for definitive science. It is up to the reader to reach their own conclusions.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1652103




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Old 01/30/2010, 02:14 PM   #4
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Looking at longetivity of our marine ecosystems.

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Most reefers know the daily and monthly maintenance routines that are needed to support a tank of healthy corals, fish and inverts.

So what long term maintenance is needed in a tank to sustain it after 2 years, 3 years, 5 years ect ect.
Is there a time to replace live rock, do a complete tank take down ect ect.

For eg I just read Waterkeeper suggesting that an inch of substrate should be replaced once a year.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1520368


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:09 PM   #5
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Here is an excellent thread on deciding what fish to stock your tank with

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1445390


Fish compatibility chart



A bigger one is here
http://search.live.com/images/result...es%2FImg95.gif


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:18 PM   #6
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For tang lovers:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1




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Old 01/30/2010, 05:21 PM   #7
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fish healthy through proper nutrition:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=1


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:26 PM   #8
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I eat Caulerpa Algae



saccoglossan sea slug

http://www.seaslugforum.net/factsheet.cfm?base=caultaxi


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:32 PM   #9
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Bristle Worms Are Good For Your Tanks


Recently, most hobbyists have come to the conclusion that small bristle worms pose no threat to other tank inhabitants and are in fact good scavengers and add to the biodiversity of the tank. You can even buy bristleworms from some sources.

Even large bristleworms are starting to be better understood. Although it appears that some large bristleworms can be aggressive predators, these seem to be in the minority. Many large bristleworms seem to fall into the harmless scavenger category.

Description:
Bristleworms range in size from small (about 1" long) up to very large at about 20" in length.
Most small ones are an orange color, sometime appearing two-tone in color. Larger bristleworms are frequently gray or brownish in color.
Bristleworms are composed of many segments and have bristles (setae) which extend from both sides of its body along its entire length
Bristle worms live in the sand or within the live rock.
They are nocturnal and not usually seen during the day.

What do bristle worms eat?
Bristle worms feed on plankton and other bits of organic matter, including algae or pieces of dead organisms.

How do bristle worms reproduce?
Most bristle worms are either male or female. They reproduce by releasing sperm and eggs into the water.
Some species reproduce asexually by budding.

Other facts about bristle worms:
The class name polychaeta means "many hairs," referring to the numerous bristles on these worms.

Many bristle worms break apart easily when handled, but are able to regenerate the lost or damaged parts.

Look for bristle worms at night with a flashlight to see if they are present in your tank. Feeding the tank in the evening will sometimes cause them to come out and feed.

Capturing them
Capturing large bristleworms, if you desire to do so, can be difficult. They are secretive and primarily nocturnal. Large ones should not be captured by hand due to their sharp pincher teeth and setae which can puncture the skin. One way to capture large ones is to place a rock with a hollow on the bottom side onto the sand in the evening. A piece of shrimp or similar can be placed into the hollow to act as bait. The next day the rock can be removed and the worms will come out with the rock, or they can be captured using a net or tweezers and disposed of.

The recommendation is to leave them alone unless you have reason to believe they are causing damage. Also be aware that when an animal, such as a clam dies, the bristle worms will frequently feed on the carcass as will any scavenger. Many people misunderstand that the worms are only scavenging and falsely assume that the worms killed the clam or other specimen.

Here is a link to a thread discussing bristle worms
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...s&pagenumber=2

Sources
http://www.chesapeakebay.net/polychaete.htm
http://www.seaslugforum.net/factshee...ase=polychaete
http://www.reefcorner.com/SpecimenSh...ristleworm.htm

FIRE WORMS



In defense of Bristle worms

They should not take the rap for their evil relatives
FIREWORMS

The Fire worm has bristles on their bodies. These white bristles are their defense. This is how they protect themselves. If a human touches it, it will start to feel like you're burning or on fire. A fire worm's body is soft and has different parts. This helps it to move. A fire worm can be 1-10 cm. long. The worm can be red or brown or gray. It is very dangerous.
Fireworms, Eurythoe spp (A), the bristles have evolved into defensive organs. They are fragile, hollow tubes filled with poison. They are easily broken when the worm is touched and the pain they cause when they pierce the skin makes their common name very appropriate

Some, such as the fireworms, are active carnivores feeding on colonial animals eg: sponges and ascidians).

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS

Body elongated and flattened dorso-ventraly, wide prostomium, one pair of eyes. They have three antennae, one pair of palps on the head, and dorsal branchial filament tufts that provide them with a blood-red color; the head bears a flattened keel caruncule (structure projecting from the posterior end of the prostomium that carries chemosensory organs called nuchal organs). The parapodia are well developed with different kinds of chaetae and possess calcareous, glassy, hollow harpoon chaetae with neurotoxins that cause discomfort when they contact human skin, thus the reason for common name of "fire worm."

DISTRIBUTION

All tropical seas.

HABITAT

Inhabit cryptic intertidal and shallow subtidal areas, living in crevices, under and between rocks, or in dead coral substrata. Also found in sand and mud.

BEHAVIOR

Found intertidal areas under rocks, forming nests. Assumes a defensive posture, arching its body dorsally to display expansive fascicle of harpoon chaetae when disturbed. Active during the night and usually hidden during daytime.

FEEDING ECOLOGY AND DIET

CAN EAT CORALS AND ANEMONES

Omnivorous and a scavenger. Ventral pharynx is eversible, unarmed, strongly muscular, and bears tranverse ridges. When feeding, it positions itself above the prey or food and uses mouth apparatus to rasp and squeeze food material into the mouth. After swallowing the food, the ridges carry it to the digestive tract. It can find prey by contact and also by chemosensory mechanisms.

REPRODUCTIVE BIOLOGY

Exhibits both asexual and sexual reproduction. Asexual reproduction occurs when individuals undergo fragmentation, dividing the body into one or more parts that regenerate to form heads, tails, or both, and grow into new individuals
Fire worm video
http://www.mpsaz.org/wilson/staff/ms...video/worm.htm

Link to pictures of different species
http://www.reefimages.com/Worms/Worms.htm

sources
http://www.answers.com/topic/eurythoe-complanata
http://marinediscovery.arizona.edu/a...Fireworms.html


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:42 PM   #10
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I can't believe I am posting another thread on Ich!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1752607

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This is a post taken from another thread. The post really narrows in on some of the facts and myths about ich. Personally, it really makes me think about the information /tenets I have picked up along the way in Reef Central.

Posted by fellow reefer and rc member krowleey on this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1750852&page=3
Thank you Krowleey

"Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

One of the marine aquarist’s devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we’ve learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

I don’t want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here’s what is known:


Life and Visuals:

1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.

2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?! This leads freshwater aquarists to thinking the wrong things about Marine Ich, adding to the myths and rumors.

6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!

9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.

11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


Treatments:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish.

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong.

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions, copper can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. Choose one or the other, depending upon whichever one you can work with; choose copper if the fish have an advanced case; choose hyposalinity whenever you have the time, patience and attention to give.


Defense and Immunity:

1. The fish’s mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. The mucous coating is where some fish immunity develops.

2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment.

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins in the mucous coating that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will usually not show being infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

6. An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected. OR if the immunity weakens, the fish will be attacked.

7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce. Immunization usually only works for several months at a stretch.


Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. True. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escape.'

2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It’s the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen.

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn’t gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

6. It was accurately diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn’t MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

7. MI can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So ‘it is gone’ after ‘it was here’ is very unlikely.

8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins." Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and obtain Resistance or immunity (see above) but while you sit comfortably in your home, the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI.

16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of MI. Have you been reading the above? The 2 weeks is not long enough. Was the 2 weeks in isolation or is the fish's water mixed with other fish's water? Seeing is not believing, right? LFS employees don't have time to closely observe and study the fishes they have in stock, for a full 6 weeks. The truth is out there. . .Trust no one.

PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS!

a good read from Lee Birch off another site, but Lee does post here from time to time. Like i stated, this parasite has been studied for many years, i would STRONGLY urge new people to use the proven data and science over a hobbyists opinion with no weight, but a guess. Thank you Lee for all your information, and i hope you don't mind me sharing it here.

here is a bio on Lee

Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)
I've been asked on more than few occasions about my background. I'll outline it here for those who are interested:

TIME LINE
1960 My first freshwater aquarium;
1968 My first saltwater aquarium;
1969 to 1973 Ohio State Univ.
1973 to 1982 Working in Microbiological fields
1982 to current Working in metals fields - traveling around the world

NOTEWORTHY FACTS RELATING TO MARINE FISH KEEPING

In the early 1970's I conducted experiments and studies on Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and ornamental fish diseases, the use of garlic, the use of antibiotics, the use of dips, acclimation procedures, and fish nutrition.

I specialize in FOWLR system and FO systems. I have handled about 1700+ marine fishes and have learned a lot about their maladies and remedies through experience, biopsy/post mortem exams, dissection, operations under anesthesia, care, and continued education.

I have degrees in Microbiology and Chemistry from OSU. I was partner of an LFS in Columbus, OH in the early '70's, imported fishes from The Philippines, and helped begin the net-catching practices (abolishing cyanide collections) there.

I often attend conventions and hobby activities around the world.

I have attended five courses (one of them twice) on ornamental fish husbandry and have certificates of those attendance and accomplishements.

I lecture for no compensation (other than a free dinner perhaps) around the country and do not earn any money from the hobby in any way.

I try to share my knowledge and experience with others to help their fishkeeping practices and the curing of ill marine fishes. I do not publish for renumeration, but will write long posts and informational posts on the Internet. I don't make any money nor accept any money from the hobby in any way, including speaking engagements, articles, posts, books, etc. I don't have any (financial or business) interest in any equipment, system, food, medication, or product used, sold, or made for the hobby.

My Internet name is leebca. My name is Lee Birch. (I go by my middle name -- my first name is William).
__________________
LEE


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:45 PM   #11
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GREENBEANS CRITIQUE

While Lee's piece is mostly correct, there are a few clarifications that need to be made.


Quote:
2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

It's important to note that even when the parasite is on the fish, it's at the lower end of what you can resolve with your naked eye. If you have good eyesight and it's on a dark colored fish, you might be able to see the parasite itself. The white spots typically associated with the disease are not the parasite itself, but the displaced tissue around where the parasite is embedded. As Lee mentions later on, getting rid of the white spots does not cure the disease.


Quote:
14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

This study has been pointed out twice in this thread now, bit it's important to not that it was only one study using one method. Other researchers have maintained viable cultures for longer using different methods. While Burgess and Matthews' work is noteworthy an may very well be correct that pure lines die out after 10-11 months, this hasn't been independently confirmed. If you don't add anything new to the tank for 10-11 months, there's a good chance any ich will have died off, but it's not something hobbyists should bet on.


Quote:
3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish...

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

Actually in the studies on immunity, no parasites were found in examinations of a few fish following challenge with the parasite. That suggests that some fish may in fact have completely stopped the parasite from infecting. Also, it's known that the immune system can be suppressed by stress or illness, so it's not accurate to say that a sick fish is no more likely to be infected than an otherwise healthy one, which he goes on to say later.

I think the point Lee was trying to make in #3 though was that making sure fish are otherwise healthy will not guarantee that they can fight off the parasite or that they won't get it as badly if they do get it. That part is true. #4 is one of the few places I think he's gone way beyond what's reasonably inferred from the literature.


Quote:
An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected.

While some authors have suggested that this is a possiblity, I haven't seen any studies showing it to be true. The only studies I know of that looked at how long immunity was maintained showed that it was still effective at least 6 months following initial infection. They didn't test it on any longer periods of time to see if there is some point at which it's lost.


Quote:
It goes away on its own. Untrue.

I think the point he's making here is that in most cases, even after the spots disappear after the initial infection, the parasite hasn't been eradicated. Even fish with immunity still usually harbor a few or the parasites, so you're unlikely to see white spots even though the parasite it still there. However, as I mentioned earlier, there have been some cases where pathology exams failed to turn up any parasites after the second challenge, so in some cases the ich may in fact have gone away on its own- but only for that fish. Any other fish that haven't developed total immunity may still be infected.


Quote:
13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

This is a matter of conjecture, and personally I disagree with it. Fish that have already developed immunity (say at the LFS) are still likely to harbor small numbers of parasites, which may not be visible. Even a small number of them can reproduce to become thousands of theronts within a single cycle, BUT even under ideal conditions (for the parasite), with naive fish in small, isolated tanks, only 5-20% of theronts successfully infect a host. With a potential host that already has partial immunity, Burgess and Matthews showed that success drops to about 0.05%, so there's no reason to assume that you will get a "bloom." For example, Burgess and Matthews found that fish that had been exposed to only 200 theronts before only hosted an average of 13 parasites after their second exposure. Other work shows that a single tomont can produces at most, 1030 theronts (only about 200-300 max for most strains). That means that even if you assume the lowest level of immunity and the maximum number of theronts from one tomont, those 13 parasites give you about 7 on the next cycle- a decline in numbers, not a bloom. You have to weaken the fish enough to double the success rate of infection just to keep a stable number of parasites. The potential problem comes when you then add that fish to the tank where there are fish who have never been exposed to ich before or may have lost their immunity over time.


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Old 01/30/2010, 05:56 PM   #12
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ICH
"Biology:
The lifecycle of the parasite is interesting and important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish. After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again (Colorni & Burgess, 1997)."
The article continues here:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

The Signs of Marine "Ich"

The first sign of Marine "Ich" infections are white spots. The fish develop small white cysts on their body surfaces (Figure 2). The eyes may also become infected causing clouding of the eyes and even blindness. Fish may also scratch, show a loss of appetite and show laboured breathing, especially when the gills are infected. Some fish may even jump out of the tank.


Treating Ich
There are there generally accepted ways of treating ich.All involve the use of a quarantine tank.
The setting up of a quarantine tank has been dealt with in an earlier post on this thread

Copper based medications--specific directions for each product are listed with it. It is very important to follow every direction in the process

Hyposalination--reducing the salinty of the water to 1.009 for 4 weeks. This level of salinity comes very close to the internal concentration of fish body fluids--1.008 so it is hightly recommended that you use a refractometer for accuaracy
Refractometers have also been dealt with in an earlier post

Series of complete qt water changes that coinicide with the stages of ich mentioned above. This is a method left to experineced reefers

Hyposalination
How to do it:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Ichy threads on RC Just a sampling of the many threads on ich since the last month. I tried to pick ones that were quite active with posters

How to lower the salinity
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...7#post12590047

Why quarantine for ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich surviving through hypo
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

hyposalinity
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

another ich situation
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

QT vs toss them in
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

are these fish prone to ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich resistent fish
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

new fish
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

QT tank meds
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

white spots covering my fish
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

hyposalinity
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

LFS + uneducated buyer=trouble
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich time line
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich treatment for powder blue tang
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

ginger for ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=1413957&highlight=ich

ich outbreak
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

Ich problem
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

My ich experience
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

curing ich in the display tank
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

ich on fry
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

hyposalination in the qt
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

High temps to kill ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich

can snails carry ich
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&highlight=ich


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Old 01/31/2010, 10:09 PM   #13
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Here is a great thread on dosing calcium, magnesium and alkalinity

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1179702


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Old 01/31/2010, 11:04 PM   #14
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thanks Capn, It's good that you started this back up, definitely subscribing and using as a reference tool for future questions, especially for ich.
Thanks


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Old 02/01/2010, 10:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
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thanks Capn, It's good that you started this back up, definitely subscribing and using as a reference tool for future questions, especially for ich.
Thanks
I really appreciate your positive comment Sister


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Old 02/01/2010, 11:42 PM   #16
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well done scott, the log book is a great source of info, ive read parts of it countless times, very useful.


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Old 02/02/2010, 10:52 PM   #17
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Common Misconceptions in the Hobby
Even though this thread has been achived it is still a good read

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...t=capn_hylinur


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Old 02/03/2010, 12:23 AM   #18
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Capn.....Very Awesome. Your post should be a Sticky at the top. I know I will do a Copy & paste to have on my computer.

I thought you retired ???

This sounds like a ton of work......LOL Nice job....

Nice jo


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Old 02/03/2010, 02:48 AM   #19
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I thought you retired ???




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Old 02/05/2010, 07:21 AM   #20
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Using a two part dosing system has brought great stability to my tanks water chemistry. Specifically calcium, alkalinity, magnesium and indirectly pH

Interested in starting? Here is one way to do it

first check out your mag levels and use kent tech-M if needed to bring them up to 1300 ppm
to bring up your calcium level try Kent turbo calcium--it is a chloride so it won't affect alkalinity levels

Here is a suggestion
bring up your alk levels with kent super dKh (8-11 dkH)
bring up your calcium levels with Kent turbo calcium(400 plus ppm)
and bring up your mag level to 1300ppm

Go on the suggested dose of two part for one week
Remeasure and adjust the amt of two part accordingly
Repeat for another week and repeat the above procedure
Continue for one month like this and you should have stable water chemistry


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Old 02/05/2010, 07:29 AM   #21
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If you are new to Reef Central then please check into our welcome thread


To Reef Central

Since this site is huge as is its membership then let us help be your guides

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...612062&page=77


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Old 02/05/2010, 08:24 AM   #22
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Good stuff thanks capn!!




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Old 02/05/2010, 08:30 AM   #23
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Thanks for bringing this back to life. Awesome stuff here.


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Old 02/05/2010, 08:39 AM   #24
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This would be a good sticky. Mods?


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Old 02/05/2010, 09:02 AM   #25
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This would be a good sticky. Mods?

Since waterkeeper left the building \imo there is no one else that can fill his water fins regarding recognizing the work of others or that it might help others learn on here

We should not forget the work of water keeper who coordinated the works of others
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1031074


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